Off-duty police officers banned from carrying firearms at New York State Fair

holdover said:

Stop arguing, We are all on the same side. The law fucking infringes on everyone. End of story. Everyone has (or had) a constitutional right to defend themselves. Its a bullshit law, made by bullshit people. What the state is saying, is that you dont have any right to defend yourself . What should be done is to require all politicians in the state to be disarmed, and not be allowed to have personnel security in public, anywhere anytime no exceptions . they need to lead by example and demonstrate it for others to follow.

They believe in security for themselves but not for others.

At this point in the game , if your following the rules , your an idiot. You do what you have to do, fuck the world.

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Best post in this entire thread.


Police should flat out refuse to protect the politicians who feel entitled to protection and actively try to take away citizens rights to self protection.


Politicians like hochul will be the first to try and restrict citizens from being able to defend themselves while ensuring she is protected 24/7 by armed police. The irony is lost on them as they are entitled self serving hypocrites.

Every single regime in history has a hierarchy structure and usually right below the politicians and uniquely skilled high value individuals are the regimes enforcers and protectors. If the LEOs really wanted to take a moral stand they should be willing to risk their careers and pensions and no longer be the protectors of the infringers and no longer carry out arrests on unjust laws.

Yes I'm dreaming it will never happen but it's fun to daydream what that would feel like to all be equal and on the same side. The politicians would care a lot more if they were held to the same standards as those they govern over.

Truebeliever said:

Sure, you are offended. Should I be offended that military veterans have more rights than someone who didn’t serve. They are civilians now too right?
Are you offended that they don’t have to take the firearms safety training that civilians do? I doubt it.
That they get their own courts as civilians if they get in trouble with the law in certain jurisdictions in New York.
That there are certain jobs and businesses that only veterans are allowed to do?
Does that offend you too. I doubt it. You would probably say they earned it. Yet these benefits apply to all veterans and not just the ones who saw war.
The national guardman who was activated for the three day mail strike in the 1970s gets the same benefits as someone who did 3 tours in Afghanistan .
I could tell you that none of the cops I know are going to enforce the new law restrictions on permit holder carry, would it make you feel better?

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Same rules for all civilians, and same rights.

Im offended that you support a tiered system of citizenship where some are allowed to exercise "more rights" than others. If you were not in support of a tiered system I would take no issue with you exercising the benefits of your profession. Its your mindset (as much as I can tell from how you are responding) I have an issue with.

Celt said:

Same rules for all civilians, and same rights.

Im offended that you support a tiered system of citizenship where some are allowed to exercise "more rights" than others. If you were not in support of a tiered system I would take no issue with you exercising the benefits of your profession. Its your mindset (as much as I can tell from how you are responding) I have an issue with.

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The difference between your position and mine is not how you describe it. I am not saying you should not be able to carry , but you are sure seem to advocate taking away my ability to do so.

Truebeliever said:

LEOSA has a major weakness written into it . Hopefully Congress will address the shortcomings.

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How? By making all law-abiding Americans equal under the law?

Truebeliever said:

Yep. And we often do however, many off duty cops are required to carry off duty therefore are unable to attend these events .
Every often, we just can’t go to these events.

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Fine.

Then police management should support constitutional carry for all law-abiding Americans.

Truebeliever said:

The difference between your position and mine is not how you describe it. I am not saying you should not be able to carry , but you are sure seem to advocate taking away my ability to do so.

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No one is advocating taking away your ability. We are advocating treating all citizens the same. Same rules whether you are an off duty plumber, off duty cop, off duty bar bouncer, off duty mailman, off duty call center manager.

It shouldn't matter. We should all have the rights to self defense and there shouldn't be special exemptions for certain groups

(specifically the ones who carry out and enforce these bad laws and rules in the first place)


It's my opinion that all these exemptions are made specifically for police to keep police happy and on the politicians side. If the off duty police were given the same rules to live under as everyone who isn't a cop they would be a heck of a lot less likely to toe the line of their political over lords and would be much more likely to side with regular honest good citizens we would have more mutual interests. The powers that be don't want that, they want their enforcers and protectors happy and pacified. Why would off duty cops care whether we can carry or not or if it's morally right or wrong so long as they get theirs they are pacified and will fall back in line. The politicians dont want police and citizens having the same shared frustrations of not being able to exercise our 2nd amendment right oc self defense.

State fair is a gun free zone? Must be bait for some whako wanting to shoot a bunch of people.

Truebeliever said:

You won’t be bringing it back because some politicians made it illegal. Cops can not say publicly they won’t enforce it. Cops can even say publicly they won’t enforce it against other cops either . And such a declaration would have to be made by a political person ( ie a chief, sheriff, police commissioner) who would be removed for saying such a thing. Otherwise, a police union could say it ( same result result of removal) and there still could be one cop among thousands who could still arrest you. For example what happened in New Jersey when a security guard was arrested for having hollowpoints when they found critical defense ammo in his gun. It was announced that the NJ state AG and the state police didn’t consider critical defense to be hollowpoints. The security guard was arrested anyway. (And probably got a civil settlement soon after — but he was still arrested).
Do you think a lot of people feel about marijuana the same way you feel about guns ? And maybe have a more violent reaction to it than you do? Or blame cops for allowing abortion clinics to remain open . Or blame cops because a transgender man can’t use certain bathrooms. Yes, I was told by someone they blame the police for that one too.

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You guys collectively have the power to make such an announcement.

If you are unwilling to exercise it, that is entirely your fault.

If the union took a vote, and said "we will not enforce this" what are they going to do ? Fire all of you ? Arrest the guy who counted the votes ? Who would arrest him ?

S&W Fan said:

And just like that it’s rescinded

24 hours after off-duty officers were told they can’t bring guns to Fair, State clarifies they can

GEDDES, N.Y. (WSYR-TV) — New York State will allow off-duty police officers to carry weapons at the State Fair, as they always were, just 24 hours after they were told they’d no longer …

www.localsyr.com

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“The bottom line here is that we have many, many police officers who obviously all have training and are very proficient in firearms. Of course, we hope we never have to use them, but the reality of this situation is, is that we have seen too many mass casualties at mass gatherings."

So...training and firearms proficiency is the metric for carrying? I am sure that I enagage in significantly more firearms training every year than a vast majority of law enforcement officers. I am quite proficient with my firearms. Can I carry?

Phazer said:

How? By making all law-abiding Americans equal under the law?

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Go look up why national reciprocity didn’t pass congress . It wasn’t just the democrats who blocked it. It was so called pro-gun people who wanted the federal government to stay out of the issue. That’s who killed it when it had a chance of passing .
Again, you don’t believe in a special need for LEOs, fine. But don’t take away from us or let your jealously keep others from getting it.
You made a career choice. I made mine. And with that choice, I knew when I retired I would be allowed to carry. I would not have taken the job otherwise. There has always been that social contract that we would be allowed to carry . There was even an unwritten code before LEOSA of “professional courtesy “ of carrying a firearm.

spat said:

You guys collectively have the power to make such an announcement.

If you are unwilling to exercise it, that is entirely your fault.

If the union took a vote, and said "we will not enforce this" what are they going to do ? Fire all of you ? Arrest the guy who counted the votes ? Who would arrest him ?

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No, we don’t . Collectively, it would be called a job action. Then the Taylor law goes into effect.
Not just that. Do you think all police have the same opinion on this? Not all gun owners in New York have the same opinion on the SAFE act either.

Truebeliever said:

Really, you don’t know what you are talking about. It’s the same way cops spot drug addicts , criminals etc. Or drug addicts spot other drug addicts . It’s how people carry themselves. Stance, how they stand and how they look at people around them.
How do you think plainclothes cops get “ made “ ?
Hell, I was in the Dominican Republic with my wife and got “made “ wearing just swim trunks and sunglasses ( which I bought there).
Since I know you won’t believe me here is someone else’s observation

How to spot an off-duty cop. Easy tips through a pig’s eye.

It’s a strange thing, being a cop. You’re never allowed to be completely off duty. I mean literally; it’s written in the rules that we always have a duty to act and are considered on-call all the time, every time.

www.chattanoogapulse.com

Remember that criminals get “ good “ at spotting cops because it’s a part of their life to do so. And it’s the plainclothes or undercover cops they fear the most. It’s a developed skill just as it is to spot a criminal and ex-cons.

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Maybe they can smell the doughnuts and hamburgers on you.

If you didn't spend your career fishing for crimes by searching every car with a broken taillight and an ammo can in the back seat, maybe you wouldn't be hated so much.

Phazer said:

“The bottom line here is that we have many, many police officers who obviously all have training and are very proficient in firearms. Of course, we hope we never have to use them, but the reality of this situation is, is that we have seen too many mass casualties at mass gatherings."

So...training and firearms proficiency is the metric for carrying? I am sure that I enagage in significantly more firearms training every year than a vast majority of law enforcement officers. I am quite proficient with my firearms. Can I carry?

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I would say it’s not about firearms proficiency but not resorting with the firearm if there is a problem. Cops tend to have a track record of dealing with issues without using the firearm.
Having said that, there are plenty of rookie and inexperienced cops who don’t have such a track record yet. Armed CCW people tend to cause less issues than the general public because they are armed and don’t want to get into a confrontation.
The other issue they worry about at such an event is weapon retention, Cops are allegedly trained in weapons retention and many departments have restrictions on what type of holsters( including off duty holsters) one can carry their firearm with. CCW carriers have no such standard. Many carry in holsters that have no security feature other than friction.
This is not to say that I don’t have a kydex holster or two that would not meet those standards. But what retention devices do your EDC holster(s) have? A thumb break at least? Some CCW carriers do. How many don’t ?
It’s the lack of standards that causes this “ distrust “ of the CCW carrier in such an environment.
The police/ security guard has that minimum standard of training despite it not being very high.
You are against a tiered system but a tiered carry permit system open to everyone would take away that excuse. Go take a minimum amount of training for this and that and you too can carry everywhere sort of thing.
And I do believe most people on this forum can shoot better than a lot of cops. But if we are honest, most people here shoot better than most CCW carriers too

Tisto said:

Maybe they can smell the doughnuts and hamburgers on you.

If you didn't spend your career fishing for crimes by searching every car with a broken taillight and an ammo can in the back seat, maybe you wouldn't be hated so much.

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But then the cop wouldn’t be effective at their job

Truebeliever said:

Really, you don’t know what you are talking about. It’s the same way cops spot drug addicts , criminals etc. Or drug addicts spot other drug addicts . It’s how people carry themselves. Stance, how they stand and how they look at people around them.
How do you think plainclothes cops get “ made “ ?
Hell, I was in the Dominican Republic with my wife and got “made “ wearing just swim trunks and sunglasses ( which I bought there).
Since I know you won’t believe me here is someone else’s observation

How to spot an off-duty cop. Easy tips through a pig’s eye.

It’s a strange thing, being a cop. You’re never allowed to be completely off duty. I mean literally; it’s written in the rules that we always have a duty to act and are considered on-call all the time, every time.

www.chattanoogapulse.com

Remember that criminals get “ good “ at spotting cops because it’s a part of their life to do so. And it’s the plainclothes or undercover cops they fear the most. It’s a developed skill just as it is to spot a criminal and ex-cons.

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Funny I’ve been called a cop more times than I can count in my life and no one has ever tried to harm me outside of high school. People mix me up for my father and my brother all the time. I’ve had people come to my home to ask me to get people out of jail or help with tickets. I’m listed and my brother and father are unlisted so they find me and think I’m a cop. Never once has it been a major problem or a safety concern.
Also more to your point yes people walking around ask me if I’m a cop as well. I think if you’re situationally aware or wear certain clothing people think your a cop or military and I’ve never been either. I’ve never actually had anyone guess correctly but they guess cop or military incorrectly fairly often.

Truebeliever said:

I could tell you that none of the cops I know are going to enforce the new law restrictions on permit holder carry, would it make you feel better

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No, because they will enforce it, maybe not happily or in agreement but they will

Truebeliever said:

The difference between your position and mine is not how you describe it. I am not saying you should not be able to carry , but you are sure seem to advocate taking away my ability to do so.

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but the actions of law enforcement will make it so that folks cannot. Like it or not police are directly linked to the shitty laws and law makers, its obvious that without the enforcement branch these laws have no teeth. I would love to see police/police unions advocate for the people the citizens they serve rather than the politicians but I know that's far fetched

Truebeliever said:

Again, you don’t believe in a special need for LEOs, fine. But don’t take away from us or let your jealously keep others from getting it.

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The concept of "equal under the law" and "special need for LEOs" are inextricably mingled. Both should not exist at the same time. Either all law-abiding American citizens are equal...or they are not. There is no middle ground.

I am not jealous. I am a constitutionalist and an American. I insist on governmental fealty to unalienable natural rights.

Truebeliever said:

I just got “ made” tonight walking into the drug store. The shoplifter just took off running after looking at me and saying “ Oh, sh—“. He didn’t do that to the other people in the store.
Big difference between that and the repo man who only had to worry about the threats that he had an interaction with.
I have to worry about being made by people I don’t even know even-though I have been retired for years.
And yes, there is I’m special because of what I did. There has always been a social contract that even liberals and most anti gun understand that retired cops get to continue to carry.
And their denial of your rights shouldn’t mean you should support the denial of mine. If you said, they should be stripped of the their protective details then that would be more appropriate.
You don’t see me advocating them taking your rights away. You want more of the rights they have taken away I have told many here what hoops to jump thru to get more of your rights back. Do you think stripping me or off duty/retired cops of them is going to help you at all? It’s not. The same people who wanted to defund the police are behind the gun control too.

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The only reason I’m not a retired state trooper right now is because I have a funny heartbeat so that’s not an option for me because the way I was born so can I have the same rights as you do? I went through the entire process of becoming a state trooper as I was turning 21 and would be retired by now if it had happened. I got the medical exam part and just never heard from them again. I passed the background check, PT, poly and everything. Every step of the way was no problem your in, you passed. My background investigator got called away a few days before 9/11 when he was supposed to come for dinner and meet the neighbors but he called and cancelled. I said no problem we can reschedule and he said don’t worry about it I’m so sure you’ll get hired we’d be wasting both our times.

Criminals never forget who arrested them or busted them up

4WHLDRFTN said:

Criminals never forget who arrested them or busted them up

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Nor do aggressive drunk jerk's at bars forget which bouncer banned them.

Or unstable angry aggressive employees ever forget which boss fired them.

Etc

Everyone has their reasons or justification for being able to defend themselves. We shouldn't need justification for not wanting to be victims.

“The bottom line here is that we have many, many police officers who obviously all have training and are very proficient in firearms."

I know of many many officers who flat out suck with a pistol. They aren't highly trained either. Some shoot pretty well, others are absolutely
terrible.

Members of law enforcement were told the policy change was due to a new weapons detection system that will be installed at all of the gates for this year’s fair.


It’s believed that off-duty law enforcement will have to enter through a separate gate this year, but those details are still being worked out.

They used the blue only entrance I guess. What a disgrace this state is.

from a "citizens" prospective LEO exemptions feels like a carrot politicians use to encourage law enforcement participation of enforcement of freedom robbing laws.

politicians- Hey guys we are going to make some restrictions on civil rights. but don't worry you're exempt
cops- well as long as it doesn't effect us I guess its ok



This has been an on going argument since before the SAFE Act stretching back to the old forum

ECU Pirates said:

“The bottom line here is that we have many, many police officers who obviously all have training and are very proficient in firearms."

I know of many many officers who flat out suck with a pistol. They aren't highly trained either. Some shoot pretty well, others are absolutely
terrible.

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Same here. I personally know several people in the law enforcement field and I don’t need all the fingers on one hand To count how many of them that are proficient with their handguns. A couple of them that I know do practice regularly with their personal handguns , but they are definitely the exception and not the rule.

Edwardteach72 said:

Let's not forget.. cops don't have a duty to protect so.. hm problem solve go to the fair like everyone else.. if attacked pee your pants and try and defecate, dial 911.. oh also rape whistle

I really don't see the issue

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It sounds like one of these particular individuals already walks around with shit in his pants. (I think he’s saying that’s how the bad guys “make” him.). How could more poo possibly help?

Truebeliever said:

But then the cop wouldn’t be effective at their job

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”To serve and protect.” Ok, we are all well aware that cops aren’t required to protect anyone from anything, and there’s AMPLE evidence that they do/will not, please tell us exactly WHO you serve? Don’t be shy.

S&W Fan said:

And just like that it’s rescinded

24 hours after off-duty officers were told they can’t bring guns to Fair, State clarifies they can

GEDDES, N.Y. (WSYR-TV) — New York State will allow off-duty police officers to carry weapons at the State Fair, as they always were, just 24 hours after they were told they’d no longer …

www.localsyr.com

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I guess it's settled then. They are special.

speedkills27 said:

from a "citizens" prospective LEO exemptions feels like a carrot politicians use to encourage law enforcement participation of enforcement of freedom robbing laws.

politicians- Hey guys we are going to make some restrictions on civil rights. but don't worry you're exempt
cops- well as long as it doesn't effect us I guess its ok



This has been an on going argument since before the SAFE Act stretching back to the old forum

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That's what I said earlier.

The politicians are trying to placate their enforcers so as long as they get theirs to hell with everyone else they will fall in line.

ECU Pirates said:

Members of law enforcement were told the policy change was due to a new weapons detection system that will be installed at all of the gates for this year’s fair.


It’s believed that off-duty law enforcement will have to enter through a separate gate this year, but those details are still being worked out.

They used the blue only entrance I guess. What a disgrace this state is.

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Oh, no! Now all the po-po crew will get “made” just by walking in their super secret cop gate! The horror! Might as well force them to wear shirts that say “We’re COPS!” I’m outraged! It’s so unfair how cops are treated so badly compared to measly peasants!

kev74 said:

I guess it's settled then. They are special.

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BINGO!

It must be nice to be "more equal" than your fellow citizens.

Truebeliever said:

The difference between your position and mine is not how you describe it. I am not saying you should not be able to carry , but you are sure seem to advocate taking away my ability to do so.

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Incorrect, I have not advocated for having any of your rights removed. I simply have disdain for anyone who thinks its ok for certain law abiding citizens to exercise rights that other law abiding citizens are forbidden from exercising for fear legal trouble.

When finding out that offduty/retired leos are not going to be able to carry at a fair I will say that a part of me says "good", but only from the perspective that I hope it pisses off enough people to join our side of the fight to push back against tyranny.