SCOTUS just fucked us!

Thread starter VietnamEraVet
Start date Jun 26, 2017

#121

VietnamEraVet

.308 Win

U.S. Military

Willjr75 said:
That bill only gives you exemption for the gun your carrying. It doesn't give you exemptions for rifles, 30 round magazines for that rifle, ect. So as written if you are carrying a Glock with a 17 round magazine, you are covered along with the pistol.

“(2) The term ‘handgun’ includes any magazine for use in a handgun and any ammunition loaded into the handgun or its magazine.

As far as restrictions on your permit go, they can revoke it but they can't take away your pistols or the ability to carry them. What would result is that you wouldn't be able to buy anymore pistols as a resident of this state.

If passed as is, it seems pretty straightforward if, for example, I travel to MA or NJ, or CA.

Where I see a battle looming with the anti's however, is carrying in our own state, - specifically NYC. I have a NY Unrestricted from Erie County, along with PA and FL non resident ones.

I can see them flipping out and arresting any of us who would carry there. I am guessing we would need to use our out of state permits down there? Probably we would be arrested, and then they would suspend, or more likely revoke our upstate NY permit, and even seize all of our guns, - long guns included.

And then the real shit would hit the fan with lawsuits and test cases, etc.

Another interesting potential issue or two I see would be carrying hollow points in NJ, but even more interesting would be carrying a pistol anywhere here in NY with a 15, 17, or even 30 round magazine, and using our out of state permit as permission under HR38 to do so. As I understand it then, under our NY permit, we would have to adhere to the 10 round mag limit, - but if we had an out of state permit, we could carry with larger capacity magazines??? The anti's would absolutely lose their minds over that!!! So, if I'm stopped in Albany for a traffic infraction, and the cop checks my gun and sees that I have a 30 round mag in my Glock, and wants to arrest me for violating NYSAFE limit, he's likely to lose his shit if I then tell him that it is legal under said National Reciprocity bill!!!

So, basically, it would mean that as long as you had an out of state permit. That you could own and or carry handguns with standard capacity mags, and they couldn't do jack shit about it IF they followed the law...

It will mean a bit of a wardrobe adjustment to conceal my Glock 17 with a 30 round mag, (which I would still have to buy in PA), but I'm up for it!

Bring it on,...now!

Last edited: Jun 29, 2017

#122

spat

.700 Nitro Express

ArmedCorgi said:
I'm still confused when it comes to restrictions. If your judge restricts your permit and doesn't want you carrying, but you get a non-resident permit so that you can carry, what's to stop your judge from revoking your nys permit?

Nothing, but you can still carry on your out of state one, so jokes on him....

#123

spat

.700 Nitro Express

Snappo said:
I highly suspect that GOP and DNC are just two faces of the same animal and that they collude to do the same basic thing no matter who wins (stagnate, refuse to do anything bipartisan, refuse to lower the budget, etc). I'm not at all surprised that they are in cahoots together to screw the people and keep them dependent lemmings.

It's nothing so "conspiracyish" as that.

Just the sort of people who can get elected to high office all want the same thing, more power for them and their office. So you end up with them all pushing the same crap, and insisting they are bitter enemies.

#124

Marine Cpl

.577 Tyrannosaur.

VietnamEraVet said:
If passed as is, it seems pretty straightforward if, for example, I travel to MA or NJ, or CA.

Where I see a battle looming with the anti's however, is carrying in our own state, - specifically NYC. I have a NY Unrestricted from Erie County, along with PA and FL non resident ones.

I can see them flipping out and arresting any of us who would carry there. I am guessing we would need to use our out of state permits down there? Probably we would be arrested, and then they would suspend, or more likely revoke our upstate NY permit, and even seize all of our guns, - long guns included.

And then the real shit would hit the fan with lawsuits and test cases, etc.

Another interesting potential issue or two I see would be carrying hollow points in NJ, but even more interesting would be carrying a pistol anywhere here in NY with a 15, 17, or even 30 round magazine, and using our out of state permit as permission under HR38 to do so. As I understand it then, under our NY permit, we would have to adhere to the 10 round mag limit, - but if we had an out of state permit, we could carry with larger capacity magazines??? The anti's would absolutely lose their minds over that!!! So, if I'm stopped in Albany for a traffic infraction, and the cop checks my gun and sees that I have a 30 round mag in my Glock, and wants to arrest me for violating NYSAFE limit, he's likely to lose his shit if I then tell him that it is legal under said National Reciprocity bill!!!

Well the bill protects the ammo and magazines so if arrested in NJ for example, you'd win and they'd have to pay you.

In NYS, if they arrested you for the magazines, you'd win that too and they'd have to pay you but like you said, "And then the real shit would hit the fan with lawsuits and test cases, etc. ".

#125

ArmedCorgi

.475 A&M Magnum

spat said:
Nothing, but you can still carry on your out of state one, so jokes on him....

This still makes no sense to me. We aren't talking about a Federally issued permit to carry, we are talking about a Federal law mandating that the states honor each others permits and cannot procescute for things like mag size, Etc. NY can and will still enforce it's laws and permitting scheme on IT'S residents. If you lose your NYS permit, they take your hand guns, you quite possibly become a prohibited person (depending on the type of revocation). You are not some guy from Utah carrying in NY, you are a guy from NY, with no NYS permit with an out of state non-resident permit. I missed where it states that you can carry in your home state without your home permit on an out of state non-resident permit. Unless what is being said is this bill basically negates any state law, in which case this bill is incredibly huge in that it is effectively wiping out 50 sets of gun laws pertaining to handguns. What is to stop people from just bypassing the NYS permit and getting an out of state permit?

#126

spat

.700 Nitro Express

ArmedCorgi said:
This still makes no sense to me. We aren't talking about a Federally issued permit to carry, we are talking about a Federal law mandating that the states honor each others permits and cannot procescute for things like mag size, Etc. NY can and will still enforce it's laws and permitting scheme on IT'S residents. If you lose your NYS permit, they take your hand guns, you quite possibly become a prohibited person (depending on the type of revocation). You are not some guy from Utah carrying in NY, you are a guy from NY, with no NYS permit with an out of state non-resident permit. I missed where it states that you can carry in your home state without your home permit on an out of state non-resident permit. Unless what is being said is this bill basically negates any state law, in which case this bill is incredibly huge in that it is effectively wiping out 50 sets of gun laws pertaining to handguns. What is to stop people from just bypassing the NYS permit and getting an out of state permit?

It says a permit from any state. It does not say it must be a resident permit.

If a guy from AZ could carry in NY with a FL non-resident permit, why couldn't a guy from NY do so ?

Also, if they take your NY Permit, they will take your guns, you would have to sue to get them back. Assuming you didn't become a prohibited person (all bets are off if you become a convicted felon or something), there is nothing to keep you from going right out and buying another gun 5 mins after they take yours.

Eventually someone will have that happen, and they will sue and get the guns back, it will cost a lot of money.

#127

Marine Cpl

.577 Tyrannosaur.

ArmedCorgi said:
This still makes no sense to me. We aren't talking about a Federally issued permit to carry, we are talking about a Federal law mandating that the states honor each others permits and cannot procescute for things like mag size, Etc. NY can and will still enforce it's laws and permitting scheme on IT'S residents. If you lose your NYS permit, they take your hand guns, you quite possibly become a prohibited person (depending on the type of revocation). You are not some guy from Utah carrying in NY, you are a guy from NY, with no NYS permit with an out of state non-resident permit. I missed where it states that you can carry in your home state without your home permit on an out of state non-resident permit. Unless what is being said is this bill basically negates any state law, in which case this bill is incredibly huge in that it is effectively wiping out 50 sets of gun laws pertaining to handguns. What is to stop people from just bypassing the NYS permit and getting an out of state permit?

They cannot because you are carrying under protection of the reciprocity law. The law doesn't differentiate between resident and non resident licenses. It says, "Any license".

They have to honor the license you are carrying under. What they can do is revoke your NY carry permit. If that happens, you can't buy another handgun as a resident of NY due to federal law. In order to do so, you'd have to move. Federal law only allows you to buy a handgun in your home state. You'd have to move in order to buy a handgun.

You cannot become a prohibited person because the conviction cannot stick do to the reciprocity law.

#128

ArmedCorgi

.475 A&M Magnum

Willjr75 said:
They cannot because you are carrying under protection of the reciprocity law. The law doesn't differentiate between resident and non resident licenses. It says, "Any license".

They have to honor the license you are carrying under. What they can do is revoke your NY carry permit. If that happens, you can't buy another handgun as a resident of NY due to federal law. In other to do so, you'd have to move. Federal law only allows you to buy a handgun in your home state. You'd have to move in order to buy a handgun.

You cannot become a prohibited person because the conviction cannot stick do to the reciprocity law.

So if NY revokes your permit, you lose the handguns you own and your ability to possess more handguns so you are left with no carry gun and a useless out of state non resident permit that you can't purchase or carry with because you lost your NY permit and with it, the privilege to purchase and possess. It leaves you nowhere. And so, the sinario I was talking about is NY judges pulling people's permits because they don't like the reciprocity bypass on their carry restrictions.

#129

spat

.700 Nitro Express

ArmedCorgi said:
So if NY revokes your permit, you lose the handguns you own and your ability to possess more handguns so you are left with no carry gun and a useless out of state non resident permit that you can't purchase or carry with because you lost your NY permit and with it, the privilege to purchase and possess. It leaves you nowhere.

80% receiver

Assuming you do something so that they only take the actual receiver, and you retain the slide, etc... that wouldn't be hard at all.

There is also the question, is there something else that stops you from buying on an out of state permit ?

Feds say you need to be a NY resident, check.
NY says you need to be legal to possess it, check.
???

#130

ArmedCorgi

.475 A&M Magnum

spat said:
80% receiver

Assuming you do something so that they only take the actual receiver, and you retain the slide, etc... that wouldn't be hard at all.

There is also the question, is there something else that stops you from buying on an out of state permit ?

Feds say you need to be a NY resident, check.
NY says you need to be legal to possess it, check.
???

Even with an 80% build or even if you could buy on an out of state permit, as a NY resident, you would be in a situation where you were not allowed to own a handgun.

#131

spat

.700 Nitro Express

ArmedCorgi said:
Even with an 80% build or even if you could buy on an out of state permit, as a NY resident, you would be in a situation where you were not allowed to own a handgun.

Not with reciprocity.

Could effectively make the NY Permit system obsolete. Why would a new shooter bother with the NY crap when they could walk in and out in PA.

#132

ArmedCorgi

.475 A&M Magnum

My sincerest apologies to @VietnamEraVet for completely hijacking your thread.

#133

ArmedCorgi

.475 A&M Magnum

spat said:
Not with reciprocity.

Could effectively make the NY Permit system obsolete. Why would a new shooter bother with the NY crap when they could walk in and out in PA.

Well, this also a point I'm trying to make. Who the hell is going to go through the process of getting the NYS permit, if they can just get an out of state permit. But I was under the impression that you needed your home states permit first. Is that incorrect? It would be amazing if this effectively killed the Sullivan Act and maybe parts of the safe act, but I just don't see NY taking it lying down.

#134

spat

.700 Nitro Express

ArmedCorgi said:
Well, this also a point I'm trying to make. Who the hell is going to go through the process of getting the NYS permit, if they can just get an out of state permit. But I was under the impression that you needed your home states permit first. Is that incorrect? It would be amazing if this effectively killed the Sullivan Act and maybe parts of the safe act, but I just don't see NY taking it lying down.

As written right now, it would. NY would fight tooth and nail, for sure, and I wouldn't want to be the guy in the middle of that fight, but if it passes as written, it would.

#135

VietnamEraVet

.308 Win

U.S. Military

ArmedCorgi said:
My sincerest apologies to @VietnamEraVet for completely hijacking your thread.

Absolutely no sweat! I'm loving the discussion!

#136

VietnamEraVet

.308 Win

U.S. Military

ArmedCorgi said:
Well, this also a point I'm trying to make. Who the hell is going to go through the process of getting the NYS permit, if they can just get an out of state permit. But I was under the impression that you needed your home states permit first. Is that incorrect? It would be amazing if this effectively killed the Sullivan Act and maybe parts of the safe act, but I just don't see NY taking it lying down.

As I understand this right now, it sure seems like it would effectively neuter much of NY's bullshit.

When I obtained my PA handgun license, they required that I have a NY Unrestricted one. But not so with FL,- they didn't even ask about any other state licenses. They did want proof of competency with a handgun, but my US Navy DD-214N covered that. Oh, - and a check with my mailed in application. Even so, it was less expensive than what it cost me here in New Yorkistan...

Of course, we all know that the first out of state licenced person, or even a NY resident who gets stopped for any reason in NYC with a handgun, and uses a FL permit as justification (assuming HR 38 passes and becomes the law), is going to be in a world class shitstorm until it becomes settled law.

How I would dearly love to see the anti's lose their shit over it!

Last edited: Jun 29, 2017

#137

Marine Cpl

.577 Tyrannosaur.

ArmedCorgi said:
Well, this also a point I'm trying to make. Who the hell is going to go through the process of getting the NYS permit, if they can just get an out of state permit. But I was under the impression that you needed your home states permit first. Is that incorrect? It would be amazing if this effectively killed the Sullivan Act and maybe parts of the safe act, but I just don't see NY taking it lying down.

Hudson's bill from the House of Representatives does not require a home state permit. That's the one that says, "Any license".

The other bill from the Senate does however. It has specific language that says that you need a home state permit.

#138

VietnamEraVet

.308 Win

U.S. Military

Willjr75 said:
Hudson's bill from the House of Representatives does not require a home state permit. That's the one that says, "Any license".

The other bill from the Senate does however. It has specific language that says that you need a home state permit.

Hey Will, - since you're pretty up on this, any thoughts on those of us with NY (but not NYC) permits carrying in NYC under the Senate bill?

#139

Jmac00

.475 A&M Magnum

Snappo said:
The only upside to all of this is that in an attempt to stop a tyrannical government the last thing you really need is a sidearm. What would be needed is about a million Americans with their hunting rifles and 1,000 rounds per person.

in 2014/15 hunting season, the Dept's of Conservation of all 50 states issued a combined total of 14 MILLION Big game hunting licenses. If you combine ALL THE ARMIES ON THE PLANET, including China, Russia, India, Pakistan, America and all of Europe, that 14 million is easily the largest Army on the planet.

The problem? Getting them all on the same page at the same time

#140

Marine Cpl

.577 Tyrannosaur.

VietnamEraVet said:
Hey Will, - since you're pretty up on this, any thoughts on those of us with NY (but not NYC) permits carrying in NYC under the Senate bill?

I read that one. It would be a "no go" because it requires your home state permit to have reciprocity. Since our permit is not valid in NYC, we would be screwed.

#141

VietnamEraVet

.308 Win

U.S. Military

Willjr75 said:
I read that one. It would be a "no go" because it requires your home state permit to have reciprocity. Since our permit is not valid in NYC, we would be screwed.

That would of course, suck. But given my luck lately, and my family ties to Murphy, the Senate bill is probably what I'd end up with,- if anything passed at all...

#142

gun_slinger_boy

.338 Win Mag

What about states with constitutional carry? How would that work? Would your license be a permit or would your drivers license or other form of I.D. Or maybe they would now have to devise a permitting scheme? Hell how does it work now? All I see is this.

Titles - S.446 - 115th Congress (2017-2018): Constitutional Concealed Carry Reciprocity Act of 2017

#143

spat

.700 Nitro Express

gun_slinger_boy said:
What about states with constitutional carry? How would that work? Would your license be a permit or would your drivers license or other form of I.D. Or maybe they would now have to devise a permitting scheme? Hell how does it work now? All I see is this.

Titles - S.446 - 115th Congress (2017-2018): Constitutional Concealed Carry Reciprocity Act of 2017

Several of them offer permits even though they aren't required for that very reason.

#144

ArmedCorgi

.475 A&M Magnum

gun_slinger_boy said:
What about states with constitutional carry? How would that work? Would your license be a permit or would your drivers license or other form of I.D. Or maybe they would now have to devise a permitting scheme? Hell how does it work now? All I see is this.

Titles - S.446 - 115th Congress (2017-2018): Constitutional Concealed Carry Reciprocity Act of 2017

So in this Bill, they have a clause that negates any restriction placed on a carry permit. So a judge's restrictions would be void. A restricted permit would be the same as an unrestricted. No more pleading with your judge to lift restrictions....I wonder how judges would feel about it? I guess from a professional stand point, they would accept it as the law and not give it another thought, but from an anti-gun activist stand point, they may try some bs and start pulling permits. That's one thing I would like to see written into these Bills, protection from having your permit revoked or supended for non-felony convictions or any other stupid "reason" a judge could think of.

#145

livingston

20×102mm Vulcan

Until the bill gets passed and the ink is dry we will not know too much. Schumer hates it and will do his best to bone us NY residents ... What gets inserted and deleted in the few hours before a vote could change things a great deal. .... Could come down to something as simple as ... want that health care bill passed ..... Neuter this handgun bill to the extent that it is worthless.
Is it possible that the law be written so that say only revolvers be allowed to be worn across state lines ? Just thinking of California and their Roster situation . How about micro stamping .. NY passed a law saying every handgun in possession needs to be retrofitted with a micro stamping ability. (if possible ) (just throwing that out there folks ) ... A law passed to limit A product from entering this state ... Out of state handguns .

#146

gun_slinger_boy

.338 Win Mag

ArmedCorgi said:
So in this Bill, they have a clause that negates any restriction placed on a carry permit. So a judge's restrictions would be void. A restricted permit would be the same as an unrestricted. No more pleading with your judge to lift restrictions....I wonder how judges would feel about it? I guess from a professional stand point, they would accept it as the law and not give it another thought, but from an anti-gun activist stand point, they may try some bs and start pulling permits. That's one thing I would like to see written into these Bills, protection from having your permit revoked or supended for non-felony convictions or any other stupid "reason" a judge could think of.

???

#147

Marine Cpl

.577 Tyrannosaur.

ArmedCorgi said:
So in this Bill, they have a clause that negates any restriction placed on a carry permit. So a judge's restrictions would be void. A restricted permit would be the same as an unrestricted. No more pleading with your judge to lift restrictions....I wonder how judges would feel about it? I guess from a professional stand point, they would accept it as the law and not give it another thought, but from an anti-gun activist stand point, they may try some bs and start pulling permits. That's one thing I would like to see written into these Bills, protection from having your permit revoked or supended for non-felony convictions or any other stupid "reason" a judge could think of.

That bill treats another states restrictions as an unrestricted. However, it requires you to have a home state permit so the restrictions will still stand.

“(1) an individual who is not prohibited by Federal law from possessing, transporting, shipping, or receiving a firearm, and who is carrying a government-issued photographic identification document and a valid license or permit which is issued pursuant to the law of a State and which permits the individual to carry a concealed firearm, may possess or carry a concealed handgun (other than a machinegun or destructive device) that has been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce in any State other than the State of residence of the individual that—

Because of that clause, reciprocity or anything in that bill wouldn't apply to us in NY. It will however out of state.

Last edited: Jun 29, 2017

#148

Marine Cpl

.577 Tyrannosaur.

We do not want the Senate Bill.

#149

spat

.700 Nitro Express

Willjr75 said:
We do not want the Senate Bill.

Neither will survive the reconciliation process.

If all we end up with is NY having to recognize other states resident permits as NY unrestricted I'll be happy. Anything more is gravy.

Just need to watch out for backdoor shenanigans, like the '86 MG ban. Watch them try to slip in a "no new suppressors" onto a reciprocity bill way they slipped '86 ban onto a pro gun bill.

#150

VietnamEraVet

.308 Win

U.S. Military

Willjr75 said:
That bill treats another states restrictions as an unrestricted. However, it requires you to have a home state permit so the restrictions will still stand.

“(1) an individual who is not prohibited by Federal law from possessing, transporting, shipping, or receiving a firearm, and who is carrying a government-issued photographic identification document and a valid license or permit which is issued pursuant to the law of a State and which permits the individual to carry a concealed firearm, may possess or carry a concealed handgun (other than a machinegun or destructive device) that has been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce in any State other than the State of residence of the individual that—

Because of that clause, reciprocity or anything in that bill wouldn't apply to us in NY. It will however out of state.

I have no doubt that Chuck Schmuck will do his best to keep that in there, if not add more anti gun crap as well, in order to keep us from carrying in NYC.

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