Bear vs .45 acp

ECU Pirates said:

Would you rather have a 9mm or a 10mm if a bear was attacking you?

Click to expand...

Of course a 10mm in brown bear country. But if I was going jogging in the woods on dirt paths, I’d probably bring with me the 9mm since it’s lighter. Of course loaded with hard cast though.

But here in NY, 9mm is sufficient for the tiny black bear.

BDinPutnam said:

I didnt know about this ammo, thanks. I have been considering picking up a handy little 380 to pocket carry around the property when letting the dog out late at night etc when I might not feel like strapping on a full blown holster and my CZ.

Click to expand...

Buffalo Bore will ship to your door.

Willjr75 said:

Buffalo Bore will ship to your door.

Click to expand...

Grazi!

But here in NY, 9mm is sufficient for the tiny black bear.[/QUOTE]

Yup TINY BLACK BEARS!!!

https://www.wideopenspaces.com/biggest-black-bears-youll-see-today-slideshow/

I'll use my old joke once again cause I KNOW you guys aren't sick of it yet.

You heard about the 5' 3" 90 lbs girl who survived a grizzly attack with just a .22?








She shot her boyfriend in the foot.

Willjr75 said:

This is why I laugh when people say that you need a large, heavy recoiling, low capacity revolver with slow follow up shots for bear protection. Any service calibered pistol with the right ammunition will do the job. There are multiple instances of even the lowly 9mm killing Grizzlies.

Click to expand...

I can only think of one instance, and in that case the guide had broad side shots on a bear as it was charging his client....not the same as taking frontal shots on a bear that is coming right at you. He was also using +P ammo in that scenario...most 9mm pistols aren't designed to hold up with +P ammo and one could argue that if you're going to shoot those type of hot loads, you might as well move up to a .40s&w or .45 acp+P.

9mm can work, so too can .22lr. There is a big difference between what can work and what is optimal.

Most Alaskan guides carry big caliber revolvers (or 10mm semi-auto's), if not a shotgun, for a reason. Just because 1 guy succeeded with a 9mm, doesn't mean that conventional wisdom is wrong on this subject.

Also, killing a black bear is not the same thing as killing a brown bear. The OP posted a story of a guy killing a black bear with .45 acp...why would anyone draw conclusions about that caliber being ideal for brown bear?

Upstate43 said:

I can only think of one instance, and in that case the guide had broad side shots on a bear as it was charging his client....not the same as taking frontal shots on a bear that is coming right at you. He was also using +P ammo in that scenario...most 9mm pistols aren't designed to hold up with +P ammo and one could argue that if you're going to shoot those type of hot loads, you might as well move up to a .40s&w or .45 acp+P.

9mm can work, so too can .22lr. There is a big difference between what can work and what is optimal.

Most Alaskan guides carry big caliber revolvers (or 10mm semi-auto's), if not a shotgun, for a reason. Just because 1 guy succeeded with a 9mm, doesn't mean that conventional wisdom is wrong on this subject.

Also, killing a black bear is not the same thing as killing a brown bear. The OP posted a story of a guy killing a black bear with .45 acp...why would anyone draw conclusions about that caliber being ideal for brown bear?

Click to expand...

1. A 9mm actually penetrates more than. 45 ACP due to the higher velocity and decreased frontal area.

2. 9mm isn’t the best. But it works too.

3. Conclusions have been made by multiple instances. Not just one.

4. Plus P ammo doesn’t necessarily make it penetrate more than standard pressure ammo. It only adds 50 FPS more in most cases.

5. Not that it matters but most new 9mm pistols do indeed handle +P rounds.

Willjr75 said:

1. A 9mm actually penetrates more than. 45 ACP due to the higher velocity and decreased frontal area.

Click to expand...

.45 is fat and slow so its penetration capabilities are definitely not the same as those for other cartridges. That said, neither cartridge (9mm nor .45 acp) is ideal for dealing with large/big game. They are far outlcassed by other cartridges in terms of penetration and wound channel aspects.

Willjr75 said:

2. 9mm isn’t the best. But it works too.

Click to expand...

That's pretty much what I said earlier. No one is saying that that 9mm can't work...but to argue that 9mm is good enough that it can replace the more purpose-built cartridges (like 10mm, .357 magnum, .44 magnum) for outdoor defense is a rather weak, and unsubstantiated, argument.

Willjr75 said:

3. Conclusions have been made by multiple instances. Not just one.

Click to expand...

There was 1 major (well-publicized) example with a guide using +P 9mm on a brown bear. Do you have references to the other examples? Even if they exist, most people who shoot dangerous game in self defense ARE NOT using 9mm....there is a reason for that.

Willjr75 said:

4. Plus P ammo doesn’t necessarily make it penetrate more than standard pressure ammo. It only adds 50 FPS more in most cases.

Click to expand...

Generally-speaking it does have better penetration, and the guide in the example you referenced was using +P 9mm (Buffalo Bore at that), not standard loadings. So its not really fair to say that 9mm in general is sufficient for brown bear when the 1 example you cite involved someone using hot 9mm.

Willjr75 said:

5. Not that it matters but most new 9mm pistols do indeed handle +P rounds.

Click to expand...

I'm sure most modern pistols will handle +P for a time, but most are not built to withstand that kind of abuse for the long term.

Upstate43 said:

That's pretty much what I said earlier. No one is saying that that 9mm can't work...but to argue that 9mm is good enough that it can replace the more purpose-built cartridges (like 10mm, .357 magnum, .44 magnum) for outdoor defense is a rather weak, and unsubstantiated, argument.

Click to expand...

Did you see the post where I said that I would prefer a 10mm? With that said, if I was going on a jog and needed something light, I wouldn’t feel under-gunned with a single stack 9mm with the correct ammo.

Upstate43 said:

There was 1 major (well-publicized) example with a guide using +P 9mm on a brown bear. Do you have references to the other examples? Even if they exist, most people who shoot dangerous game in self defense ARE NOT using 9mm....there is a reason for that.

Click to expand...

Handguns for Bear Defense: a Study by Caliber

https://www.ammoland.com/2018/02/de...s-rate-37-incidents-by-caliber/#axzz5vvXU9dN7

Upstate43 said:

Generally-speaking it does have better penetration, and the guide in the example you referenced was using +P 9mm (Buffalo Bore at that), not standard loadings. So its not really fair to say that 9mm in general is sufficient for brown bear when the 1 example you cite involved someone using hot 9mm.

Click to expand...

How is that not fair? You are supposed to use the correct ammo for any caliber. You wouldn’t use a low penetrating hollow point in 10mm for example?

Upstate43 said:

I'm sure most modern pistols will handle +P for a time, but most are not built to withstand that kind of abuse for the long term.

Click to expand...

That’s not true at all.

Willjr75 said:

Handguns for Bear Defense: a Study by Caliber

https://www.ammoland.com/2018/02/de...s-rate-37-incidents-by-caliber/#axzz5vvXU9dN7

Click to expand...

https://www.ammoland.com/2018/02/de...s-rate-37-incidents-by-caliber/#axzz5vvXU9dN7

One of those "studies" simply makes reference to the other...and that study really wasn't much of a study, but rather a bunch of news articles compiled by an online website.

If we were to take the study's "statistical rates" at face value, then we should consider 9mm a more effective bear defense cartridge over .357...does that really make sense to you?

Willjr75 said:

How is that not fair? You are supposed to use the correct ammo for any caliber. You wouldn’t use a low penetrating hollow point in 10mm for example?

Click to expand...

It's not an accurate comparison. Most 9mm handguns ARE NOT built to withstand a steady diet of +P ammo...moreover most 9mm owners aren't carrying or practicing with that kind of ammo. Nor is that ammo widely available.

Even so, a 10mm or magnum revolver cartridge presents a considerable advantage over even the hottest +P 9mm load.


I agree that it's better to have a 9mm on you rather than nothing at all, but earlier you were implying that the big magnum advocates were somehow wrong for shying away from 9mm....there are pro's and con's to any cartridge option. 9mm is cheap, has low recoil, and is commonly available...those are it's pro's. It has the potential to stop a bear, but it's far from ideal for that kind of application...that would be it's con.

According to your "study," there are 4 instances of people using 9mm in defense against bears...and that is out of how many total instances where a handgun has been used against bears? I think you're looking at those 4 examples without any context.

Upstate43 said:

One of those "studies" simply makes reference to the other...and that study really wasn't much of a study, but rather a bunch of news articles compiled by an online website.

If we were to take the study's "statistical rates" at face value, then we should consider 9mm a more effective bear defense cartridge over .357...does that really make sense to you?

Click to expand...

The point is that it’s worked a number of times. It wasn’t a fluke.

Upstate43 said:

It's not an accurate comparison. Most 9mm handguns ARE NOT built to withstand a steady diet of +P ammo...moreover most 9mm owners aren't carrying or practicing with that kind of ammo. Nor is that ammo widely available.

Click to expand...

Where are you getting this information that most 9mm guns cannot handle a steady diet of +P? That’s not true at all and even if it were true, a few boxes delivered to your door in a few days to shoot for reliability and load to carry will not hurt your gun or would not make you perform any worse if you practiced with standard pressure instead of +P.

Willjr75 said:

The point is that it’s worked a number of times. It wasn’t a fluke.

Click to expand...

It worked 4 times...out of how many times total that pistols have been used in those types of scenarios? Those 4 instances could very well have been flukes, we simply don't have enough data to determine that one way or the other.

Willjr75 said:

Where are you getting this information that most 9mm guns cannot handle a steady diet of +P? That’s not true at all and even if it were true, a few boxes delivered to your door in a few days to shoot for reliability and load to carry will not hurt your gun or would not make you perform any worse if you practiced with standard pressure instead of +P.

Click to expand...

Do you understand that +P loading is not SAAMI spec? When a manufacturer designs and builds a pistol for a certain cartridge, it is almost always with the SAAMI specs as the design parameters. There are a few 9mm pistols that are deliberately overbuilt and would likely hold just fine for +P ammo...they are the exception, not the norm.

Upstate43 said:

It worked 4 times...out of how many times total that pistols have been used in those types of scenarios? Those 4 instances could very well have been flukes, we simply don't have enough data to determine that one way or the other.




Do you understand that +P loading is not SAAMI spec? When a manufacturer designs and builds a pistol for a certain cartridge, it is almost always with the SAAMI specs as the design parameters. There are a few 9mm pistols that are deliberately overbuilt and would likely hold just fine for +P ammo...they are the exception, not the norm.

Click to expand...

I think you are confusing +P with +P+.

https://saami.org/wp-content/upload...FP-and-R-Approved-2015-12-14-Posting-Copy.pdf

Upstate43 said:

It worked 4 times...out of how many times total that pistols have been used in those types of scenarios? Those 4 instances could very well have been flukes, we simply don't have enough data to determine that one way or the other.

Click to expand...

And 10mm only worked once.

Carlos Hathcock said:

Totally true.

.45 = Stay alive.
.9mm = Little peter.

Click to expand...

Can confirm the 9mm = little peter thing.

That's why I love my P99.

And girls that point at it and laugh.

Willjr75 said:

Buffalo Bore will ship to your door.

Click to expand...

Is that true? :O

Also, Will, you can shoot my Desert Eagle with the .44 barrel on if you don't want to deal with the .44 revolvers.

Darth said:

Is that true?

Click to expand...

Yes.

Darth said:

Also, Will, you can shoot my Desert Eagle with the .44 barrel on if you don't want to deal with the .44 revolvers.

Click to expand...

No.

I just came back from a 5 day backcountry camping trip in Wyoming. A Glock 20 at my side, 15+1 rounds, the whole time, with bear spray on a cross draw.

A bear charging at 30 MPH towards you vs. climbing a tree greatly affects your aiming and shot placement. 10mm is the minimum to carry in the woods where grizzly and black bears (and hungry coyotes) may be a threat. I am glad I did not get the S&W 500 as I wanted; the Glock was very natural at my side and never noticed even when struggling to get my pack/load up and down the mountain trails.

Willjr75 said:

I think you are confusing +P with +P+.

https://saami.org/wp-content/upload...FP-and-R-Approved-2015-12-14-Posting-Copy.pdf

Click to expand...

Bud, I'm not confusing anything. Pistols that are rated for 9mm ARE NOT necessarily rated for +P 9mm. Different chamber pressures and different design parameters.

OEM's use SAAMI specs when rating their firearms for a certain cartridge. Only a few OEM's deliberately over-engineer their pistols with +P ammo in mind.

Willjr75 said:

And 10mm only worked once.

Click to expand...

That's exactly my point...this "study" you seem so attached to simply compiled news stories available on the internet. Just because you can find 4 examples of 9mm working and only 1 example of 10mm working DOES NOT mean that 9mm is more proven at stopping bears...rather it means the "study" did a piss-poor job at researching this topic.

And FWIW, 10mm has seen much more dedicated use in predator defense than 9mm ever has...it's become all the rage with Alaskan hunters and guides.

Upstate43 said:

Bud, I'm not confusing anything. Pistols that are rated for 9mm ARE NOT necessarily rated for +P 9mm. Different chamber pressures and different design parameters.

OEM's use SAAMI specs when rating their firearms for a certain cartridge. Only a few OEM's deliberately over-engineer their pistols with +P ammo in mind.

Click to expand...

Yet every new gun from Sig, Glock, Ruger, Smith & Wesson, HK, CZ, Walther, is rated for +P. I don’t know which ones you are talking about that isn’t.

Upstate43 said:

That's exactly my point...this "study" you seem so attached to simply compiled news stories available on the internet. Just because you can find 4 examples of 9mm working and only 1 example of 10mm working DOES NOT mean that 9mm is more proven at stopping bears...rather it means the "study" did a piss-poor job at researching this topic.

And FWIW, 10mm has seen much more dedicated use in predator defense than 9mm ever has...it's become all the rage with Alaskan hunters and guides.

Click to expand...

Now you see. Statistics don’t mean anything. Heck. Carry doesn’t mean anything. Actual usage does.

Willjr75 said:

Yet every new gun from Sig, Glock, Ruger, Smith & Wesson, HK, CZ, Walther, is rated for +P. I don’t know which ones you are talking about that isn’t.

Click to expand...

Unless you see a OEM specifically state the +P rating in their manual, in their literature or on the firearm itself, there is absolutely no basis to what you're saying.

Most 9mm pistols are not rated for +P...but shoot what you want...it's your call.

Willjr75 said:

Now you see. Statistics don’t mean anything. Heck. Carry doesn’t mean anything. Actual usage does.

Click to expand...

Statistics do mean something....they just happen to be poorly developed in the "study" you keep referencing. A sample size of 4x 9mm incidents, 3x .357 magnum and 1x 10mm incident doesn't really provide much of a statistical foundation.

Upstate43 said:

Unless you see a OEM specifically state the +P rating in their manual, in their literature or on the firearm itself, there is absolutely no basis to what you're saying.

Most 9mm pistols are not rated for +P...but shoot what you want...it's your call.

Click to expand...

Every single one of those are rated for +P.

Willjr75 said:

Every single one of those are rated for +P.

Click to expand...

GLOCK Frequently Asked Questions

What kind of ammunition should I use in my GLOCK pistol? Can I use +P and +P+ ammunition?

We recommend using ammunition that is manufactured and meets SAAMI or other industry standards, and while some +P ammunition meets these guidelines, +P+ usually does not. This ammunition may generate a higher pressure than standard ammunition, which could shorten the life of the parts of your firearm.

Click to expand...

That's Glock's official response...I'm sure with a little more digging, you could find official responses from some of the other OEM's.

Just thought I'd remind everyone about this old incident, since we're talking about what to carry in bear country.

Bear attack in Alaska

Good thing this guy didn't have a 10 round magazine, he'd be in the same boat as the Hiker who tried to defend himself from this monster with a .38

Note, they pulled 12 rounds of 7mm mag out of the bear, in addition to the .38s the unfortunate hiker tried to defend himself with the day before.

If these were running around WNY, I'd want a 50bmg to carry because of the 10 round limit. Does anyone make a NY compliant semi auto 50 ?

Upstate43 said:

That's Glock's official response...I'm sure with a little more digging, you could find official responses from some of the other OEM's.

Click to expand...

+P and +P+ are two different things. +P is SAAMI rated. +P+ is not.

Willjr75 said:

+P and +P+ are two different things. +P is SAAMI rated. +P+ is not.

Click to expand...

You're missing the point.

Design parameters for the 9mm cartridge do not necessary equal the design parameters for +P 9mm. There are some +P 9mm loads with significantly higher muzzle velocities and chamber pressures as compared to the standard 9mm loading.

That's why Luger 9mm +P is listed in a separate section on the SAAMI publication you referenced (as opposed to being consolidated in the 9mm section). That's why several major OEM's, to include Glock, advise against consistent use of +P ammunition.

EDIT: just to clarify, when I said earlier that +P 9mm is not SAAMI spec, what I meant was that it is not considered to be in the same category as the standard 9mm cartridge. Also, I don't believe SAAMI has established max chamber pressures for +P 9mm, whereas it has for the standard 9mm.

All of this is tangential to what we're talking about:
- 9mm +P (specifically hard-cast bullets) can work against bears, but they're ultimately outclassed by other cartridges.
- most 9mm pistols ARE NOT designed to withstand +P chamber pressures over the long term.

And I believe you are missing the point that every modern gun out there chambered in 9mm besides the Diamondback DB9 can shoot +P.

So if you want to carry Buffalo Bore 147 gr+P Hard Cast for woods protection, you can do so safely.

Heres the thing about brown bear attacks, studies and the caliber debate.
MOST incidents are NOT reported.
You will never get this from the news or stats.
Most brown bear attacks happen deep in the bush and happen to people living off grid with very little contact with normal civilization.
Defending against bears is just common practice to these people and reporting incidents to the proper authorities is the last thing on their minds.....if even possible.
The attacks you hear about are from city folks going into the bush and bringing their stories back.
There are old timers living off grid who have killed multiple brown bears.
Not always from being attacked.
Sometimes they treat bears like some treat snakes......a good bear is a dead bear.
Anyways, these type people use rifles.
If they cant get to their rifles, they use large bore revolvers almost exclusively.
And remember, some of these guys have killed 5 or more bears and never reported one of them.

For the typical New England black bear you will find that they are around 250 to 300 lb. They are hardy animals, that even when shot with high caliber rifles in the vitals they have the ability to run and live for another 30 seconds or more sometimes.

If you are in close proximity to them on the ground it is still likely they could attack you after you shot them. The bigger the caliber, or better stated, the more powerful the firearm you use the better your chances are of stopping them.

In Greene County, at the North End of the Catskill Mountains ,in the foothills is where my folks live, and it's where I do my hunting and most of my outdoor sporting activities. There are quite a few black bears around there, and while I often carry my 44 Magnum revolver, there are plenty of times I carry my Glock 19 with Fmjs. I also always carry a large knife for what it's worth. Personally I feel that 11 rounds of 9 mm would be enough to stop the average black bear in that area.