Current State Election Audits of 2020

Blimey

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spat said:
The fact remains, a significant percentage of the people no longer trust the electoral process. Whether their concerns are legitimate or not is irrelevant. (1) The fact that they exist is enough to undermine the entire process.

To function a democracy needs the vast majority of people to see the outcome of an election as legitimate, whether they agree with it or not.

The Democrats laid the ground work for this with 4 years of "the Russians stole the election". (2) What you are seeing now is just a logical next step in the collapse of the process.

You don't just need a system that prevents fraud from affecting the outcome. You need a system in which the existence of such fraud is inconceivable. (3)

There are a lot of people out there who can conceive methods to defraud our election. If you don't want the process to collapse, you need to figure out how to alleviate their concerns. (4)


You have the same problem with vaccination. The left thinks making a "safe and effective" vaccine is enough, and can't understand why they are having problems getting people to take it.

It doesn’t just need to be "safe and effective" it needs to be obvious that it is "safe and effective". (5) Threatening people who don't want it doesn't affect how safe it actually is at all, but it sure as hell effects how safe people think it is.
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Since the new board is messed up I've bookmarked your points :D

1. It's very relevant because it determines whether there is something broken in the process or something broken in perception. And that identifies which one to fix.

2. Possibly so but isn't it interested that republicans spent four years mocking the democrats' accusations of fraud, and then the moment their guy loses they do the exact same thing.

3. This itself is inconceivable. Many Americans still believe the earth is flat. Many think the moon landing is fake. I've seen ostensibly intelligent people, who actually have families and jobs, believe the most ridiculous shit, particularly in the past year. A seemingly-increasing number of people in this country are simply unteachable and nothing will ever change that. They believe whatever they want to believe and damn the evidence.

4. We have these. A shit load of laws, audits, observers, and courts.

5. This is not possible. Many Americans still think vaccines cause autism. Many still think the covid vaccines have microchips. How can anything ever be done to prove anything to 100% of the population? If a person believes, in 2021 that the earth is flat, how can you possible convince them of anything they don't want to be convinced of?

As I've said before if half of this country thinks the election was good and half of it thinks it was a big scam one half of the country is outrageously wrong. They cannot both be right; one side is pitifully incorrect.
 
Dr. Evil

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From the POS PA Governor regarding the audit:

“Let’s be very clear, this information request is merely another step to undermine democracy, confidence in our elections and to capitulate to Donald Trump’s conspiracy theories about the 2020 election. It is a direct continuation of the same lies that resulted in the attack on the Capitol, and that have done so much to destabilize our political institutions over the ten months since last year’s election,” Wolf said. “We badly need Republicans to take election security seriously and stop playing games for political gain.”

Why should I believe a politician like Wolf who has been pushing the left's narrative, responsible for seniors dying during the scamdemic, was all in on the lock downs, against the 2nd, etc. is all of the sudden telling the truth? Well, either he is or he is crapping in his pants.

I will say this. There are many things that Trump has said in the past that may have sounded ludicrous and the media roasted him for that turned out to be pretty accurate. We'll see about this. Time will tell.
 
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tirwin1

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Defilade said:
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An unnamed source is going to decertify the election. Nonsense. This is just conspiracy and fear mongering to keep people on edge. Just like the dems are doing with covid. It's irresponsible.

No "source", either unnamed or named can possibly decertify the election results no matter how deeply people wish for it.

That doesn't mean there was no fraud. But there is no way the results will be overturned.
 
kev74

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tirwin1 said:
An unnamed source is going to decertify the election. Nonsense. This is just conspiracy and fear mongering to keep people on edge. Just like the dems are doing with covid. It's irresponsible.

No "source", either unnamed or named can possibly decertify the election results no matter how deeply people wish for it.

That doesn't mean there was no fraud. But there is no way the results will be overturned.
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They don't need to overturn the election. They just have to show clearly that the results of the election were illegitimate.

There isn't a magic switch that they can pull that will put Trump back in the Whitehouse. But they can sow enough discord that Biden gets hamstrung and can't get more commie stuff through. They can get republicans angry enough to show up on election day. They can shine light on the fraud to help prevent it from happening quite so blatantly again.
 
SonOfSun

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Dr. Evil said:
Why should I believe a politician like Wolf who has been pushing the left's narrative, responsible for seniors dying during the scamdemic,
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If covid is a scam, why were seniors dying from it? Placebos or non-diseases don't kill you. How are you able to be mad about mass deaths from a disease that is a "scam"? That doesn't make any sense at all.
 
tirwin1

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kev74 said:
They don't need to overturn the election. They just have to show clearly that the results of the election were illegitimate.

There isn't a magic switch that they can pull that will put Trump back in the Whitehouse. But they can sow enough discord that Biden gets hamstrung and can't get more commie stuff through. They can get republicans angry enough to show up on election day. They can shine light on the fraud to help prevent it from happening quite so blatantly again.
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The Republicans in Congress did not like trump and wouldn't do anything even if fraud was proven. Expecting "angry Republicans" to do anything is wishful thinking.
 
Acer-m14

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SonOfSun said:
If covid is a scam, why were seniors dying from it? Placebos or non-diseases don't kill you. How are you able to be mad about mass deaths from a disease that is a "scam"? That doesn't make any sense at all.
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maybe because they already have 2 legs and 1 arm in the grave ... one little push and their dead
 
SonOfSun

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Acer-m14 said:
maybe because they already have 2 legs and 1 arm in the grave ... one little push and their dead
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If that's the case then covid didn't kill them, so why be mad about the deaths of old people from covid?

It can't simultaneously be a "scam" and wiping old people out.
 
spat

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Blimey said:
Since the new board is messed up I've bookmarked your points :D

1. It's very relevant because it determines whether there is something broken in the process or something broken in perception. And that identifies which one to fix.

2. Possibly so but isn't it interested that republicans spent four years mocking the democrats' accusations of fraud, and then the moment their guy loses they do the exact same thing.

3. This itself is inconceivable. Many Americans still believe the earth is flat. Many think the moon landing is fake. I've seen ostensibly intelligent people, who actually have families and jobs, believe the most ridiculous shit, particularly in the past year. A seemingly-increasing number of people in this country are simply unteachable and nothing will ever change that. They believe whatever they want to believe and damn the evidence.

4. We have these. A shit load of laws, audits, observers, and courts.

5. This is not possible. Many Americans still think vaccines cause autism. Many still think the covid vaccines have microchips. How can anything ever be done to prove anything to 100% of the population? If a person believes, in 2021 that the earth is flat, how can you possible convince them of anything they don't want to be convinced of?

As I've said before if half of this country thinks the election was good and half of it thinks it was a big scam one half of the country is outrageously wrong. They cannot both be right; one side is pitifully incorrect.
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You are missing the point.

The perception of legitimacy is *more* important than actual legitimacy.

If you have a rigged election, but everybody trusts it, then life goes on.

If you have an honest election, but a large number of people don't believe that, then your government has a crises of legitimacy.

In both cases you need to fix the perception.

The bottom line is that the credibility of the government and media is shot.

They lie often and unashamedly and are caught frequently.

This is not new, but what *is* new is that people recognize it.

I am not sure there *is* a way back short if a full reset.

You can get 55% of the people to force the other 45% to comply, but the harder you squeeze to do that the more you will convince the 45% they are right.

Just like the covid vaccine thing. At this point there is *nothing* the government can do to convince the last 20% of the people. The more they push the less credibility they have.

They screwed up and blew their credibility. It's gone and it will take decades to regain. It will take forever if they don't start trying.


So, instead of their current plan of escalating threats and an endless parade of testimonials from untrusted celebrities, maybe they should just say "Here are some well conducted studies and their raw data, believe what you will and do what you want".


It's funny you talk about the Republicans flip flopping on election integrity too. They are no where near where the democrats are about that.


For 4 years we heard that the Russians stole the election, and we said "no, the Russians did not steal the election"

Then the right wing narrative switched to "voter fraud stole this election" and the left wing narrative changed to "It's impossible to steal an election in the US".

The difference is that *both* right wing narratives can be true, but the left wing narratives are contradictory. Both of them *cannot* be true.

The left does this frequently, and in a very short time.


It was only a couple months from "I'm not going to trust Trump's vaccine, it was rushed and can't possibly be safe" to "Only an idiot wouldn't trust the vaccine".

The did the same thing in the beginning.

"Come to the Chinatown festival, don't listen to Trump's xenophobic fear mongering. He's a racist for cutting off travel from China" then a month later they're complaining that he hasn't ordered lockdowns.
 
Blimey

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spat said:
You are missing the point.

The perception of legitimacy is *more* important than actual legitimacy.

If you have a rigged election, but everybody trusts it, then life goes on.

If you have an honest election, but a large number of people don't believe that, then your government has a crises of legitimacy.

In both cases you need to fix the perception.

The bottom line is that the credibility of the government and media is shot.

They lie often and unashamedly and are caught frequently.

This is not new, but what *is* new is that people recognize it.

I am not sure there *is* a way back short if a full reset.

You can get 55% of the people to force the other 45% to comply, but the harder you squeeze to do that the more you will convince the 45% they are right.

Just like the covid vaccine thing. At this point there is *nothing* the government can do to convince the last 20% of the people. The more they push the less credibility they have.

They screwed up and blew their credibility. It's gone and it will take decades to regain. It will take forever if they don't start trying.


So, instead of their current plan of escalating threats and an endless parade of testimonials from untrusted celebrities, maybe they should just say "Here are some well conducted studies and their raw data, believe what you will and do what you want".


It's funny you talk about the Republicans flip flopping on election integrity too. They are no where near where the democrats are about that.


For 4 years we heard that the Russians stole the election, and we said "no, the Russians did not steal the election"

Then the right wing narrative switched to "voter fraud stole this election" and the left wing narrative changed to "It's impossible to steal an election in the US".

The difference is that *both* right wing narratives can be true, but the left wing narratives are contradictory. Both of them *cannot* be true.

The left does this frequently, and in a very short time.


It was only a couple months from "I'm not going to trust Trump's vaccine, it was rushed and can't possibly be safe" to "Only an idiot wouldn't trust the vaccine".

The did the same thing in the beginning.

"Come to the Chinatown festival, don't listen to Trump's xenophobic fear mongering. He's a racist for cutting off travel from China" then a month later they're complaining that he hasn't ordered lockdowns.
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I agree with your 20% number. But the government cannot be expected to placate every last person.

Two people could be put in a room for a year and shown the exact same presentations on a number of topics. At the end of the year interviewing them would result in their having learned different things. Given the dispersal of society and our experiences and intellects some people are essentially unreachable.

All of us, though some far more than others, are prone to logical fallacies. We all do them. We aren’t rational. Some people embrace them happily and that last group believes whatever floats their boat without any justification or ability to withstand scrutiny.
 
spat

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Blimey said:
I agree with your 20% number. But the government cannot be expected to placate every last person.

Two people could be put in a room for a year and shown the exact same presentations on a number of topics. At the end of the year interviewing them would result in their having learned different things. Given the dispersal of society and our experiences and intellects some people are essentially unreachable.

All of us, though some far more than others, are prone to logical fallacies. We all do them. We aren’t rational. Some people embrace them happily and that last group believes whatever floats their boat without any justification or ability to withstand scrutiny.
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You are correct about people being irrational.

But that doesn't change the fact that you *need* the vast majority or them to trust the system for it to work.

If at least 90% of the people don't trust the system to work, then you no longer have a government "of the people".

You will *have* to govern by fear and intimidation, because without that trust you cannot govern by respect for the rule of law.

It doesn’t matter if the people are irrational. If you want to government a group of flat earthers, you can either gain their respect, or beat them into submission.

One of those is tyranny.

Pleadings of "necessity" do not make it any less tyrannical, and are infact the excuse or every tyrant in history.


So, how does our government regain the trust of the irrational ?
 
Blimey

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spat said:
You are correct about people being irrational.

But that doesn't change the fact that you *need* the vast majority or them to trust the system for it to work.

If at least 90% of the people don't trust the system to work, then you no longer have a government "of the people".

You will *have* to govern by fear and intimidation, because without that trust you cannot govern by respect for the rule of law.

It doesn’t matter if the people are irrational. If you want to government a group of flat earthers, you can either gain their respect, or beat them into submission.

One of those is tyranny.

Pleadings of "necessity" do not make it any less tyrannical, and are infact the excuse or every tyrant in history.


So, how does our government regain the trust of the irrational ?
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The present system doesn't work very well anymore. At least half the people who are voting are simply stupid. Uneducated (extremely easy to prove by testing them on any number of subjects), no critical thinking skills, exceptionally ignorant and--worse--they don't even care. They have all the wisdom behind their vote as a person who supports a sports team simply because their dad did.
 
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Blimey said:
The present system doesn't work very well anymore. At least half the people who are voting are simply stupid. Uneducated (extremely easy to prove by testing them on any number of subjects), no critical thinking skills, exceptionally ignorant and--worse--they don't even care. They have all the wisdom behind their vote as a person who supports a sports team simply because their dad did.
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1632080581996.png
 
Paxal

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SonOfSun said:
* Issued a presidential memorandum instructing the Labor Department to delay implementing an Obama rule requiring financial professionals who are giving advice on retirement, and who charge commissions, to put their clients first.


Stopped randomly on a spot. People you are paying to give you advice should have to act in your interest, not their own. Why is delaying that rule that makes them do that a good thing?
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It’s not. Nothing is perfect and cherry picking a bad example from a long list of good accomplishments doesn’t cancel them.
 
spat

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Blimey said:
The present system doesn't work very well anymore. At least half the people who are voting are simply stupid. Uneducated (extremely easy to prove by testing them on any number of subjects), no critical thinking skills, exceptionally ignorant and--worse--they don't even care. They have all the wisdom behind their vote as a person who supports a sports team simply because their dad did.
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Compared to the original elecorate in the US the current one is actually very well educated.

Our system was originally designed with an uninformed largely illiterate populace in mind.

We have systematically eliminated all those safeguards.

From only landowners voting, to legislatures selecting senators and electors. These were all designed around the premis that the average person was not well informed enough to make an intelligent decision.

The theory was that the common people were just making value judgements about the local
people *they* were voting for, and *those* people would be responsible for educating themselves well enough to vote for the next tier.

The average farmer would not know enough about the people running for national office to make an informed decision, but he would probably personally know the guy running to represent his local district in the state legislature.

The nature of our problem has changed somewhat, but their solution might still work well.

The founders dealt with an uninformed illiterate electorate.

We deal with a misinformed, easily manipulated electorate that suffers from information overload.
 
Uninformed and Compliant

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Blimey said:
My pillow guy is still at it. Can’t believe anybody still gives him radio time. Mike Lindell moves Trump's reinstatement to Thanksgiving after claiming cyber symposium was a 'home run'
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I'm still trying to figure out wtf is going on with him. He's even more blatant than "Thomas Wictor".

Pillow Guy strikes me as sincere, which may be my mistake in figuring it out. But he cannot possibly be that insane. Gullible, I'd believe. But then who the fuck is pumping this horse shit into his addled brain. THAT shitbag should trivially be made front and center, and yet... crickets.

Pillow Guy is either a very adept Controlled Op, or he's an imbecile with a controlled op advisor.

I'm sure there'll be a HUGE BOMBSHELL TOMORROW regarding that point.
 
Grimscale

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Robin said:
Socialist tool is still at it. I can't believe anyone still gives him forum time.
Robin
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He may be a socialist tool, but he also may not be wrong... or at least not completely wrong.

Mike Lindell tends to sound fanatical in his declarations, and the constant setting back of the "Trump will be reinstated" date just makes him even crazier. Just like all the "release the kraken" and "bombshell report due..." statements.

Is there even a process in place to account for a "stolen" election? Do we have precedent on what will happen should it come to light that there was rampant voter fraud?

If you allow Dementia Joe to remain in office you reward criminal activity.
If you just stick DJT back in there like nothing happened you'll upset 40% of the Country (the ones that already Burn, Loot, and Murder).
 
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