.350 Legend (35 Gunner?)

[ProgSpear]

@meketrefe - It looks like the 35 Gunner concept has been commercialized.


The Captain's Journal

.350 Legend
BY Herschel Smith

15 hours, 47 minutes ago
While perusing this piece on new rifles from the SHOT show (most of which I find far too pricey), I ran across an ammunition type I hadn’t seen before, the .350 Legend. That’s because it’s brand new.

The 2019 SHOT Show saw the release of the latest cartridge from Winchester—the .350 Legend. The new cartridge is a .223 case blown out to have straight walls, making it a perfectly viable choice for those states which require the use of a straight-walled rifle cartridge for deer hunting. The bullet diameter is listed as .357″, and the rimless design will require the cartridge to headspace off the case mouth.

Winchester is currently offering five different loads for the new cartridge: a 150-grain Deer Season XP at 2350 fps, a 180-grain Power-Point at 2100 fps, a 160-grain Power Max Bonded at 2225 fps, a very affordable 145-grain FMJ in the USA ammo line at 2350 fps, and a Super Suppressed 265-grain load at 1060 fps.

I had the opportunity to shoot the .350 Legend at SHOT Show’s Industry Day at the Range in a Winchester bolt-action rifle, and it was plenty accurate and pleasant on the shoulder. They had the Deer Season XP load and the USA Full Metal Jacket loads on hand; point of impact between the two was so close at 100 yards that a hunter could easily use the much more affordable FMJ ammunition for off-season practice as well as plinking, and switch to the Deer Season XP for hunting. In Winchester’s comparison to the veteran .30-30 Winchester, the .350 Legend shows to have an energy advantage of 120 ft.-lbs., yet delivers less recoil than the old deer classic.

It would appear that the idea is a straight-walled cartridge that isn’t quite the punch in the shoulder that the .450 Bushmaster is, but still with a lot of power. I confess that I had thought before about the possibility of a carbine chambered for .357 Magnum. This is a step up. For the 150-grain bullet they get 2350 FPS, whereas by comparison, for the 300 Blackout at 125-grains, it’s pushing 2215 FPS. It’s got the 300 BO beat. They must have partnered with CMMG, because there’s already a gun for it.

 

[Airborneguy]

Uh oh.

 

[meketrefe]

@meketrefe - It looks like the 35 Gunner concept has been commercialized.

While perusing this piece on new rifles from the SHOT show (most of which I find far too pricey), I ran across an ammunition type I hadn’t seen before, the .350 Legend. That’s because it’s brand new.

The 2019 SHOT Show saw the release of the latest cartridge from Winchester—the .350 Legend. The new cartridge is a .223 case blown out to have straight walls, making it a perfectly viable choice for those states which require the use of a straight-walled rifle cartridge for deer hunting. The bullet diameter is listed as .357″, and the rimless design will require the cartridge to headspace off the case mouth.

Winchester is currently offering five different loads for the new cartridge: a 150-grain Deer Season XP at 2350 fps, a 180-grain Power-Point at 2100 fps, a 160-grain Power Max Bonded at 2225 fps, a very affordable 145-grain FMJ in the USA ammo line at 2350 fps, and a Super Suppressed 265-grain load at 1060 fps.

I had the opportunity to shoot the .350 Legend at SHOT Show’s Industry Day at the Range in a Winchester bolt-action rifle, and it was plenty accurate and pleasant on the shoulder. They had the Deer Season XP load and the USA Full Metal Jacket loads on hand; point of impact between the two was so close at 100 yards that a hunter could easily use the much more affordable FMJ ammunition for off-season practice as well as plinking, and switch to the Deer Season XP for hunting. In Winchester’s comparison to the veteran .30-30 Winchester, the .350 Legend shows to have an energy advantage of 120 ft.-lbs., yet delivers less recoil than the old deer classic.

It would appear that the idea is a straight-walled cartridge that isn’t quite the punch in the shoulder that the .450 Bushmaster is, but still with a lot of power. I confess that I had thought before about the possibility of a carbine chambered for .357 Magnum. This is a step up. For the 150-grain bullet they get 2350 FPS, whereas by comparison, for the 300 Blackout at 125-grains, it’s pushing 2215 FPS. It’s got the 300 BO beat. They must have partnered with CMMG, because there’s already a gun for it.

Hi !

It is not even close.

It says it can push a 150gr bullet to 2,350fps that initially it looks good, but my 35 gunner can push the same bullet to 2,650fps-2700fps depending on what bullet. The gunner will also push a 180gr bulllet to 2550 fps(already measured) while the legend comes out at 2100fps.

Although the idea of a "357 maximum +P+" from the AR is nice, this Legend cartridge is not going anywhere. Well, there is one good thing, at least one can use 357 bullets that are affordable and will kill much better at close range than the AK, and obviously, the rather anemic blackout.

So the gunner not only leaves all popular AR calibers in the dust in terms of killing power but also some of the big bore guys like the 450 Bushmaster,
458 socom and BEO. Those start at somewhat decent speed but in only a few yards the gunner is ahead with a lot more speed, energy and shooting
a lot flatter. And we are not going to feel shorthanded grain wise with 200, 225 and 250gr bullets available although I would leave teh heavies for
deep penetration like very large animals. There is nothing walking on this continent that could not be tackled with the gunner if needed be.
The whole idea was to offer equivalent and even superior power to the mighty 308 winchester in lighter rifles and barrels of 16" with bullets up to 180-200gr. we achieved that.


Regarding the 30-30 mentioned above. They do not have a clue what they are talking about.

While there is an obvious killing advantage just with the extra section of the 35 caliber alone, the Hornady 30-30 160gr FTX will leave the muzzle
faster than the 150gr 357 but not only that, ballistically is a superior round so at a distance will deliver more speed and energy too.

Modern 30-30
30-30 Win 160 gr FTX® LEVERevolution® - Hornady Manufacturing, Inc

Heavy 30-30 Winchester Ammo

I don't know who writes these articles but they are a bit full of crap. They mention it has an advantage of the 30-30 that is total Bull shit.

The truth is, that if one wants more killing power than the AK and obviously the blackout one
can use a regular 357 magnum with premium hunting ammunition.
This will give both more power/momentum and superior wounding so for short ranges one
doesn't have to complicate things a lot.

So if you have a lever action or one of those sporting carbines in 357 do not feel short-handed because they are excellent killers if one keeps the distances real than in heavy brush they are never too long. Obviously the Gunner is going to give a huge advantage but consider if in your situation is really necessary?




35 leyend



35 Gunner - This season 180gr White tail load.

 

[kev74]

I concur.

But more importantly.... when's the next run of barrels and dies?

 

[meketrefe]

I concur.

But more importantly.... when's the next run of barrels and dies?

There is not enough interest. Perhaps we should ask an gunshop to see if they can carry them.

 

[togmaster]

There is not enough interest. Perhaps we should ask an gunshop to see if they can carry them.

I have a lower that is screaming at me to build it.

 

[ProgSpear]

I was wondering about this, whether it was Winchester marketing hype or if this was something “real”.

Anyway, I guess I’m going to have to break down and get a chrono... I’d like to know what velocity I’m getting from my .357 lever, plus if I get serious about reloads, I know I’ll need one. The books don’t allow for conditions (like being polar vortexed)

 

[meketrefe]

I was wondering about this, whether it was Winchester marketing hype or if this was something “real”.

Anyway, I guess I’m going to have to break down and get a chrono... I’d like to know what velocity I’m getting from my .357 lever, plus if I get serious about reloads, I know I’ll need one. The books don’t allow for conditions (like being polar vortexed)

Remington as well as the author are full of crap. It is a sales pitch like the blackout.

The thing is not a totally bad a idea considering the huge assortment of 9mm and 357 and 358 bullets for both practice and hunting.
This is 10 time better than the 30 caliber considering that type of versatility and that people might share the same components between
pistol and rifle. folks just need to understand some of the potential shortcomings between straight wall high pressure cartriges and
auto-loaders. It is not the most forgiving type of option in terms of reloading.
Lots of care and attention must be put into that
because of the absence of a rim or a shoulder in the casing. Something that is not a problem with the magnum or maximum or
the gunner for that matter.

If you have a modern lever action this is something one could try for hunting.

HEAVY 357 MAG OUTDOORSMAN Pistol & Handgun Ammunition


18.5-inch Marlin 1894
a. Item 19A/20-180gr. Hard Cast = 1851 fps
b. Item 19B/20-170gr. JHC = 1860 fps
c. Item 19C/20-158gr. Jacketed Hollow Point = 2153 fps---- Can you believe this?!!!
d. Item 19D/20-125gr. Jacketed Hollow Point = 2298 fps---- Or this?!!!

AS you can see, at short range in the thick woods, it gives greater killing power than many popular AR rounds like the 223, AK and obviously, the anemic blackout.
If one wants to replicate this or reload for the 357 magnum I suggest to play with the 140gr FTX that is a decent flyer and provides a decent amount of grain. 2300fps is doable with careful reloading and to have around just to hunt white tail. For boars I would use a solid one.

The gunner with H110 pushes the 140gr ftx to 2700fps in a 16" barrel. But it also pushes this one to 2550fps out of a 10" pistol !!.

...talking about hornadys melting tips!...LOL

 

[meketrefe]

Another way to make it more reliable is to make a tapered design like the new Russian 366 TKM

This is becoming a popular round as it is officially a "shotgun" round because of the 5years russian BS law.


VEPR has released a new gun for it with a quick change barrel.

MOLOT to Introduce a Multi-Caliber VEPR Rifle with a Quick Change Barrel System

Mikhail Degtyaryov of Russian “Kalashnikov” gun magazine has visited Molot’s premises and published on his social media pages several images of a new Vepr rifle. The rifle will feature a quick change barrel system. It will be possible to switch between the 7.62x39mm, .366 TKM, and 6.5x39mm calibers.

It is not clearly specified whether it is the Russian 6.5x39mm cartridge or they mean the 6.5mm Grendel. In general, there is a very little information about this gun. The official release is planned to be in October 2017 during the “Arms & Hunting” expo which will be held in Moscow, Russia. Until that, we can only guess what other features the new rifle has by looking at the images.

All images by Mikhail Degtyaryov and “Kalashnikov” magazine

In the above image, you can see the threaded portion of the front trunnion. The barrel probably slides into the front trunnion and gets fixed in place by a barrel nut. In the image below the sleeve around the barrel should be that nut. Judging by the U-shaped cuts on the nut, I think there can be some sort of a plunger detent system similar to the muzzle device retention of AK-style rifles. But that is just my assumption, the notches can just be there to fit a wrench.

Another difference from traditional AKs is the extended and upward angled charging handle. Note also that the iron sights are attached to the barrels and come out with them.

Reportedly, Molot also develops a barrel chambered in 5.45x39mm. Whether it will be a different rifle or will just require changing the bolt along with the barrel to switch to 5.45×39 is not clear yet.

Among other features that are shown in the images are the top Picatinny rails on the dust cover, the RPK-style rear sight with windage adjustment possibility, AR-15 compatible folding stock, adjustable gas system etc.

We’ll let our readers know more about this new Vepr rifle once it is officially introduced.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Will they be making this in 9mm?

 

[meketrefe]

The TKM above not to be confused with the 9.6 Lancaster below.

Firearms with only a small section at the end with oval or polygonal rifling (no grooves ) then makes that
a shotgun so folks can use the new rounds until they complete the given grace period in Russia in order
to access other guns.

 

[meketrefe]

Will they be making this in 9mm?

The 9mm exists and in service, it is called the 9x39. That is a 7.62x39 case necked up to 9mm and pussified version of the gunner.
Still 10 times better than the infamous blackout both because of A) the case capacity and B) the endless
choices in 9mm / 357 and 358 caliber bullets.

 

[meketrefe]

a favorite in the pdw. lots of power..

 

[meketrefe]

AS/VSS that is popular with Special Forces (supressed)

 

[@thewheels]

I was wondering if there had been any threads on the 350 Legend and i stumbled on this.
I know it's not all that the marketing team at Winchester has hyped it up to be but IMO an AR upper in 350 Legend could fit a niche for certain shooters.
I'd like to see Ruger jump on it as well with a Mini platform for the 350 if things actually catch on.
I'm going to be watching to see how available the factory ammo is over the next several months and Depending on price/availability, I'd certainly be interested in a 350 legend upper.

 

[Edwardteach72]

Not to go off on a ramble but i see the 9x39 was mentioned.

A little while back I heard something about possible us made 9x39 blasters or imports of them

 

[meketrefe]

Not to go off on a ramble but i see the 9x39 was mentioned.

A little while back I heard something about possible us made 9x39 blasters or imports of them

I dont think the demand is there.
If it was a big higher pressure with more versatile design and freebore then it would be perfect and that is why the gunner was created.
And then others might use other great 35 options too like the 357 mag, maxium, 35 rem, 358 winchester, etc...
All ready to go in different firearm configurations.

 

[meketrefe]

If someone is interested in this type of idea and given the limitation of the 355 bore I would suggest to get a custom barrel made in 358 bore and then enjoy the full bullet selection of the entire 35 bore from 355 to 358 bullets.
One more reason to avoid the 350 legend. One more reason to consider a 35 herret cat based on the 6.8 case.

The 350 AR reamer might work for this type of project.