AR Barrel threads and using a thread protector.

[Suregrip391]

Hello, new to the forum, I'm building a New York compliant AR and I wanted to use a thread protector. A local gun shop told me that "you never weld on a barrel" after I asked about what to do. They said they use an industrial epoxy to secure the cap. Is this good enough for New York? Or is it at your own risk with no case law? Wondering what you guys use. Thanks very much.

 

[kev74]

The law says you can't have a threaded barrel. Short of physically removing the threads from the barrel, any other fix is uncertain as to being kosher or not.

For what its worth, I silver soldered a thread protector on mine.

 

[Suregrip391]

Actual silver solder and a torch? Or the silver solder epoxy as shown below?

 

[Frankly]

There has never been a case and judgement regarding this, so the vague law gives authorities a wide range of interpretation should they want to prosecute you. More likely than not it is the intimidation caused by the threat of prosecution and the expense of defending yourself that accomplishes the intent of the law. It would a brave and wealthy person to challenge the law because lawyers are expensive and if you lose you're screwed.

Still, as a practical matter, Upstate police and prosecutors have better things to do with their time and it's unlikely this would come up, at least outside of the Democrat counties.

 

[kev74]

Actual silver solder and a torch? Or the silver solder epoxy as shown below?

I used silver solder paste and a map gas torch.

 

[MilesTeg]

There is also pinning and welding as an option. This is what satisfies the ATF for a 16" barrel when counting the flash hider. Therefore I would consider this to be a safe option.

 

[Acer-m14]

From what i have heard drill the protector for a pin .. thread it on tight , run drill back in hole just to engage into the threads, drive in pin to flush and pop it with a quick mig or tig weld .. pop on some bluing to blend in the weld mark ..

 

[ManrisFrack]

I have access to a CNC mill so I milled a blind hole into the thread protector and barrel. The depth ended up very close to the pitch diameter of the threads and the diameter about .1245". Cut an 1/8" dowel pin to length and pounded it in there. It's a light interference fit so you'd probably have to drill it out - permanent enough in my mind.

I agree with the gun shop - welding on a barrel isn't a great idea in my opinion.

 

[Acer-m14]

this is welding on a barrel .. a spot tack with a mig or tig ove the pin and a wet cool rag handy wont even warm it up to what 10 rounds down the barrel does ..

 

[Marine Cpl]

NY doesn't have anything written in the law as far as how to permanent affix a muzzle device. The ATF however does. Following the ATF's method can easily be fought in court should you ever find yourself in the unlikely situation. Your argument of following the ATF's method would definitely be a sound argument since NY fails to define the matter.

 

[ManrisFrack]

It isn't the temperature of the barrel as a whole that does damage. It's the fact that a weld liquifies the metal to a certain depth and eliminates any heat treating in that small area.

Welding over a pin isn't big deal because even a newbie would be hard pressed to get dangerous heat into to the barrel metal. But if you do a large weld on a barrel like what is pictured, you better know exactly what you're doing.

 

[Marine Cpl]

It isn't the temperature of the barrel as a whole that does damage. It's the fact that a weld liquifies the metal to a certain depth and eliminates any heat treating in that small area.

Welding over a pin isn't big deal because even a newbie would be hard pressed to get dangerous heat into to the barrel metal. But if you do a large weld on a barrel like what is pictured, you better know exactly what you're doing.

That's what I did. Well my FFL did. He spot welded over two pins.

 

[meketrefe]

Folks continue to be confused with this.
There is no need to weld anything. People are confused with the old federal ban and compliance directions for short barrels.
A cap or sleeve with a blind pin is SAFE compliant. RRA and stag among others have been shipping them this way.
Hundreds of compliant rifles have been sold and made compliant this way.
What it was considered permanent before it is not less permanent with SAFE act.
Welding provides absolutely nothing unless you cannot drill and pin the cap or sleeve.
I suggest a cap that is flush with the barrel so the gas block could be removed and slide over should maintenance
be needed.

 

[Acer-m14]

@meketrefe just what is a blind pin ? ....

 

[Robin]

FUACUPOS!!!!!!!!
Robin

 

[JamieZ]

Ive done quite a few of them. Thread cap/muzzle device on. Know the drill depth of said cap/muzzle device, mark it on your bit and do it a CH more so you hit barrel. So your hole is through cap and a CH into the barrel. Pin the hole. Tack weld end of pin to muzzle device. Easy, clean way of doing it. Want to remove said device. Grind off the little nipple of weld and dump the pin out. Then unscrew device.

 

[Acer-m14]

Ive done quite a few of them. Thread cap/muzzle device on. Know the drill depth of said cap/muzzle device, mark it on your bit and do it a CH more so you hit barrel. So your hole is through cap and a CH into the barrel. Pin the hole. Tack weld end of pin to muzzle device. Easy, clean way of doing it. Want to remove said device. Grind off the little nipple of weld and dump the pin out. Then unscrew device.

yep .. no ware states the pin has to be a tight fit .. just unscrewable ...

 

[Phazer]

Ive done quite a few of them. Thread cap/muzzle device on. Know the drill depth of said cap/muzzle device, mark it on your bit and do it a CH more so you hit barrel. So your hole is through cap and a CH into the barrel. Pin the hole. Tack weld end of pin to muzzle device. Easy, clean way of doing it. Want to remove said device. Grind off the little nipple of weld and dump the pin out. Then unscrew device.

Yup...simple! For people who weld or know where to get things welded. Not so simple for the rest of us.

 

[Acer-m14]

@Phazer 10 min talk with a mig in your hand .. your a welder .. its like drawing with a pencil .. if you hear bacon sizzeling .. your welding ..

 

[Marine Cpl]

Folks continue to be confused with this.
There is no need to weld anything. People are confused with the old federal ban and compliance directions for short barrels.
A cap or sleeve with a blind pin is SAFE compliant. RRA and stag among others have been shipping them this way.
Hundreds of compliant rifles have been sold and made compliant this way.
What it was considered permanent before it is not less permanent with SAFE act.
Welding provides absolutely nothing unless you cannot drill and pin the cap or sleeve.
I suggest a cap that is flush with the barrel so the gas block could be removed and slide over should maintenance
be needed.

I have scoured the NY Penal laws and there isn't any methods of compliance for anything. NY Case Law Precedence also doesn't exist.

I get what you are saying about the manufacturers shipping that way but in the end, it's the manufacturer's interpretation in selling a product and the consumer's interpretation in accepting it and buying it.

Many a manufacturer has sold something in error later declared illegal by the ATF. This has happened with certain muzzle devices that the ATF has gotten involved in.

Some manufacturers won't even sell you something that's 100 percent legal.

In the end, we are left with nothing to reference except a former ATF ruling on a similar matter.

 

[meketrefe]

A blind pin consistes on a single hole with a solid pin put in place and then grinded flush with the piece (barrel) or epoxy filled
so nobody know it is there other than perhaps a scuff mark. Some people might put a weld it doesn't make a difference.
Don't drill on the threads that might already be too thin like 1/2x28 that should have never existed in the first place and
tap in the join that you have more material before you get tot he minimum diameter.
So lets say if the barrel and cap is .740 at that place and the caliber is .223
wall thickness = 740-224 = 516. .... 516 / 2 = .258" So in the join you could put a .75 pin and still leave .183"
whereas in the threads area the wall thickness is 500 - 224 = 276... 276/2 = .138" so your pin needs to be larger than .120 and then drill
beyond there to engage in the threads and you don't want to drill anything there. It is a common mistake.
With 5/8 threads that are a lot better you have more room but there is no need. The pin in the join will be a lot stronger always.

 

[meketrefe]

I have scoured the NY Penal laws and there isn't any methods of compliance for anything. NY Case Law Precedence also doesn't exist.

I get what you are saying about the manufacturers shipping that way but in the end, it's the manufacturer's interpretation in selling a product and the consumer's interpretation in accepting it and buying it.

Many a manufacturer has sold something in error later declared illegal by the ATF. This has happened with certain muzzle devices that the ATF has gotten involved in.

Some manufacturers won't even sell you something that's 100 percent legal.

In the end, we are left with nothing to reference except a former ATF ruling on a similar matter.

Negative.

This has been explained countless times to people as also explained to manufactures and gun shops who sell those compliant rifles
that hold legal representation and got confirmation from NYSP.
The same and consistent with the answers provided during the NYSP education sessions for the SAFE act compliance.
If one didn't go there then they can ask Scope and others for the transcripts or tapes as these sessions where recorded. Personally
I took note of everything.
Some people who called the hotline perhaps got different answers at different times depending on who was on the phone due to the lack of training of that person
or lack of consistency of NYSP but this has been clarified by many sources.
Nobody is going to try this the same issue with the compliant stocks because they have no case to do anything with it.
We can speculate all we want but they will not do it. The whole law is stupid and arbitrary but for us is easy. we should go with
the facts and advice we have and leave the interpretations to others.

Still if one is not going to sleep well at night then you might go and do all the things that you feel will make you sleep better at night
but it might be totally unnecessary and a waste of time and money in terms of SAFE compliance.

 

[Gunright]

A bit off topic, but can anyone recommend a gun smith in the greater capital region?

 

[Marine Cpl]

Negative.

This has been explained countless times to people as also explained to manufactures and gun shops who sell those compliant rifles
that hold legal representation and got confirmation from NYSP.
The same and consistent with the answers provided during the NYSP education sessions for the SAFE act compliance.
If one didn't go there then they can ask Scope and others for the transcripts or tapes as these sessions where recorded. Personally
I took note of everything.
Some people who called the hotline perhaps got different answers at different times depending on who was on the phone due to the lack of training of that person
or lack of consistency of NYSP but this has been clarified by many sources.
Nobody is going to try this the same issue with the compliant stocks because they have no case to do anything with it.
We can speculate all we want but they will not do it. The whole law is stupid and arbitrary but for us is easy. we should go with
the facts and advice we have and leave the interpretations to others.

Still if one is not going to sleep well at night then you might go and do all the things that you feel will make you sleep better at night
but it might be totally unnecessary and a waste of time and money in terms of SAFE compliance.

I respectfully reply with a negative of my own.

The NYSP are not judges that interpret law. Their website says so and they have officially said so in the Dark Storm fiasco via official letter. They have incorrectly stated their opinion on compliance in the past with different answers that have constantly changed.

 

[meketrefe]

CLARIFICATION

Some NYS compliant rifles of larger calibers came with the side hole pin vs. straight pin like shipped by RRA and Stag.
It makes sense becase the 30 caliber bore leaves even less wall thickness.

example for a 30 caliber compliant muzzle.

 

[meketrefe]

I respectfully reply with a negative of my own.

The NYSP are not judges that interpret law. Their website says so and they have officially said so in the Dark Storm fiasco via official letter. They have incorrectly stated their opinion on compliance in the past with different answers that have constantly changed.

\

Of course. We are adults here.
One can also go to a store here and see the compliant firearms in stock and on sale and let them pass.
This is a free country after all. Nobody will force you to buy anything you feel strongly against it.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Yea Meke, in the end, it all boils down to what makes you sleep better at night like you said earlier.

 

[JamieZ]

Yup...simple! For people who weld or know where to get things welded. Not so simple for the rest of us.

I dont know how to weld. Bought an 80 dollar stick welder from Harbor freight that works awesome. You dont need to know how to weld to put a dab over the pin.

 

[Suregrip391]

Thanks for all the replys guys. Appreciate the responses.

 

[MilesTeg]

I don't have links in front of me right now but there are barrel manufacturers out there making ones without threads. If I remember correctly they we're of good quality and decent price. If you already have a barrel I think we covered hoe to make it compliant, but new is always an option.