Brush Guns and Calibers

[meketrefe]

What about a thread related to firearms?...

When presented with the opportunity to hunt in deep woods what do you use?
Or if you don't have the rifle yet what round or firearm do you think would be good for your situation and why?

How bad can it get from your blind and/or stand?

If you have any pics you are welcome to share.

I want to make sure when we talk about brush we also keep it into that context and what that means.

I find this to be pretty sexy and versatile too.

 

[Robin]

A brush gun is usually shorter, making it easier to maneuver through the thickets. It absolutely does not mean that it will shoot through brush with dependable accuracy. A hands on test done with about ten different calibers from .223, 30-06, on up to .50 BMG, including a .62 smoothbore flintlock showed that none of them are reliable when shooting through brush. The actual winner for consistent accuracy was the flintlock, but even it was still proven to be 'not a good idea'!
Robin

 

[carpediem]

Marlin 1895G.

 

[Airborneguy]

Looks like my new Marlin 336RC in .30-30 will be filling that role for me from now on. I got it all cleaned up a few days ago and man does it look good.

 

[Calculon]

Marlin 1894 Stainless in 44 Magnum.

 

[meketrefe]

I think if the brush gets really thick no 30 caliber or lower is going to do it.

Sierra sells Brush Busters and it is not just a marketing stunt, it turns out they actually tested the bullets!

Sierra's Ballistic Technician Paul Box says....

I also learned that round nose as well as flat nose bullet styles cut thru blackberry briars and this brush very well, but the biggest difference was the distance from the brush to the target. If it was something like six feet, then nothing worked very well.

Out of all this experimenting, my favorite was the 45-70 with 300 gr. HP/FN Pro-Hunter bullets #8900. If the distance thru this brush was short to the deer target, it would plow thru an amazing amount of brush and still hit within a couple of inches of my aiming point.


Brush Busting Bullets

 

[IrishMick]

Iraqvereran8888 has a couple of good videos on the subject. Take away is that blunt, heavy bullets at less velocity seem to be better. 45-70 performed well.

 

[S&W Fan]

I''ve been using a Marlin Model 336 in .35Rem. 240 grain bullets For many years with great results.

 

[Robin]

Of course the closer into the brush to target, the less distance the bullet has to veer, but the bottom line is, it IS going to veer, have a little respect for the animal your trying to kill. This is not a good idea by any measure.
Robin

 

[S&W Fan]

Of course the closer into the brush to target, the less distance the bullet has to veer, but the bottom line is, it IS going to veer, have a little respect for the animal your trying to kill. This is not a good idea by any measure.
Robin

Agreed, I won't take a shot into brush just to take a shot,unless I'm sure of my target and a kill. Even if the game that I'm shooting at is 5 yards away.

 

[meketrefe]

Agreed, I won't take a shot into brush just to take a shot,unless I'm sure of my target and a kill. Even if the game that I'm shooting at is 5 yards away.

I think the idea is to move to a better shot always.
But what if you can't or even the animal you need do shoot is coming at you to eat you?

Nobody should attempt to drive a bullet though brush to harvest the animal on the far side so that distance to the brush should be considered.

The hardest part of testing this is to be able to reproduce some consistency of the brush situation so here the person who wrote this
instead of finding the ideal place it reproduced and brought the conditions to the firing range.
I don't know all these BP projectiles but this seems to me a good analysis or something that works vs. something that doesn't.

I hope it helps.

Harvester Muzzleloading Hunter: Best Brush Busting Muzzleloader Hunting Bullets...


Best Brush Busting Muzzleloader Hunting Bullets...

If you've hunted with a muzzleloader for any length of time, you've surely had a few times when you've taken shots at big game in the brush which failed to connect. And that miss was likely due to the fact that many of the muzzleloader hunting projectiles available in the past were far from being ideal brush busters. I've had a few of those "misses" that were unexplainable, until I spent some time looking at everything that had been between me and that deer, or elk, or whatever. And the tatletale sign of the shot connecting with a branch...limb...or sapling usually revealed why my shot failed to connect. The muzzleloader hunting projectiles of 25 years ago were easily deflected, sometimes at a severe angle.

About 20 years ago, I began a search for those projectiles which could catch a limb or sapling or two, and still hit game with enough accuracy to put it down. And what I've noticed as muzzleloader hunting has progressed is that more and more of today's bullets are doing a far better job of busting brush...and still stying pretty much on target.

Early on, I would drive out to a handy maple or willow thicket...place a portable target board back into the tangle of limbs and sapling trunks, and see if I could get a high degree of shots to hit anywhere near where I was aiming. Back then, few would.

Now, most every winter, after the big game seasons have closed, once there is some snow on the ground, I get out a half-dozen or so times to conduct the same test that I first did back in those days. But instead of driving out to a convenient thicket, I now bring the thicket to my range. That's accomplished by cutting a truck load of 1/2- to 1-inch diameter willows, and pushing the cut ends down into a snow bank. Then a portable target board is placed behind 5 or 6 staggered rows of saplings, insuring that every shot will contact at least one of the young tree trunks. More often than not, any bullet shot will hit two or three of the saplings.

Surprisingly, some of today's muzzleloader hunting bullets do a pretty darn good job of plowing through a little brush and hitting the intended target close enough to point of aim to get the job done. But that depends on how far the target is behind that wall of brush - and the construction of the bullet.

These tests have also shown that bullet weight plays a big role in resisting deflection. The heavier the bullet, the more it tends to stay on course. This winter, I've put close to 300 rounds through my man-made thicket, and those bullets of 300 or more grains definitely put a much higher percentage of hits into the kill zone than lighter bullets. To simulate that zone, I staple a standard 9-inch diameter paper plate onto my plywood target board. The plate is large enough to be seen behind the stand of saplings, allowing the crosshairs to be fairly centered on the plate for each shot - even if I can't actually see the "center" of the plate.

My first round of testing was with the target board just 5 yards behind the saplings.

The bullets shot were: 1.) 260- and 300-grain Harvester copper-plated .451" Scorpion PT Gold; 2.) 200-grain Harvester copper-plated .400" Scorpion hollow-point; 3.) 330- and 400-grain Harvester .451" Hard Cast lead flat-nose; 4.) 250- and 300-grain .452" jacketed Hornady SST polymer spire-point; 5.) 250- and 290-grain all-copper Barnes TMZ polymer spire-point; 6.) 300-grain Barnes all-copper .458" SOCOM polymer spire-point; 7.) 325-grain Hornady .458" FTX soft polymer tipped spitzer; 8.) 300-grain Lehigh .458" all-brass hollow-point; 9.) 350-grain Lehigh .475" all-brass hollow-point; 10.) 300- and 350-grain Hornady .500" bore-sized FPB copper-plated spitzer; 11.) 295-grain BPI .500" bore-sized Power Belt poly-tipped copper-plated spitzer; 12.) 300- and 350-grain Harvester copper-plated Saber-Tooth hollow-point.

All of these bullets were loaded and shot with a volume measured 100-grain charge of Blackhorn 209. Four different rifles were used - a .50 caliber T/C Triumph, a .50 caliber Traditions VORTEK, a .50 caliber Knight Long Range Hunter, and a .52 caliber Knight DISC Extreme. Each was shot and sighted to be pretty much center of a paper plate at 50 yards. Then three shots were taken at a plate on the target board behind the sapling thicket. With the board just 5 yards behind the saplings, only two bullets failed to put all three on the 9-inch plate. The light 200-grain Scorpion hollow-point scored just one hit, while the 295-grain Power Belt put two hits into the simulated kill zone.

When the target board was moved to 10 yards behind the saplings, the angle of deflection became more evident. And so did how lighter weight bullets are more easily thrown off course. The saboted 250-grain Hornady SST, 250-grain TMZ, and 260-grain Scorpion PT Gold each kept two hits on the paper plate. All of the heavier saboted bullets managed to put all three into the zone. Of the bore-sized bullets, only the 350-grain Hornady FPB kept all three on the plate. The 350-grain Saber-Tooth and 300-grain FPB each scored two hits, while the 300-grain Saber-Tooth scored a single hit. All three shots with the Power Belt failed to cut paper. The light 200-grain Scorpion hollow-point also failed to hit the plate. Both bullets were dropped from further testing.

When the target board was moved to 15 yards behind the stand of saplings, six bullets kept all three hits inside the 9-inch circle - the 330- and 400-grain Hard Cast flat-nosed bullets, the 300-grain Scorpion PT Gold, the 300-grain all-copper SOCOM, the 350-grain Lehigh all-brass hollow-point, and the 350-grain FPB. The 300-grain Lehigh all-brass bullet kept two hits on the plate, as did the 290-grain TMZ. The 260-grain Scorpion PT Gold, 300-grain SST, 325-grain FTX, and the 350-grain Saber-Tooth scored one hit each.

The heavier copper plated, all-copper and all-brass bullets definitely resisted deflection better than all lighter bullets, and to some degree better than the copper-jacketed bullets tested (SST and FTX). The two bullets that proved to be only slightly affected by smacking into a sapling or two were the 330- and 400-grain flat-nosed Hard Cast bullets from Harvester Muzzleloading. In fact, after dead centering one willow and clipping another one or two, the 330-grain Hard Cast managed to group right at .705" on the paper plate set 15 yards behind the thicket. The 400-grain stayed inside of 1 1/4". The next best grouping with the target board set that far back was with the 350-grain all-brass Lehigh hollow-point (shot out of the Knight .52 DISC Extreme), which kept all three hits inside of 2.7". The 300-grain Barnes SOCOM and 300-grain Scorpion PT Gold grouped right at 3 inches across. (Photo Above Right - Still In The Kill Zone After Plowing Through A Wall Of Brush!)

The past couple of winters, my shooting results with the copper-plated, all-copper and hardened lead bullets varied little from this year's brush busting tests. For several years, I would continue to throw in a few soft pure lead saboted bullets, but found that once they hit one or two saplings, the bullets became so deformed that they tended to stray way off course within a few yards. As accurate as some of these may be, they're best used when hunting open country. Plowing through brush with the accuracy to still hit that sweet spot on a big old buck is the job for bullets that are more solidly constructed.

It was easy to see where the bullets impacted the snow covered bank backstop after plowing through the saplings and 3/4" thick plywood target board. After shooting one afternoon, I walked over to a bare spot where most of the bullets had been hitting the frozen ground, and there lay several of the big 400-grain Hard Cast bullets...with the noses just slightly flattened and bent. And that damage was likely done when the bullet hit the frozen dirt bank. It became very clear why those hardened lead bullets had fared so well during the brush buster bullet test. (Those recovered bullets can be seen in the photo at the top of this post.)

If you hunt thick country, you might want to give this testing some thought...or get out and do some of your own. Plowing through brush and still driving into the kill zone takes a very special bullet. - Toby Bridges

 

[Jmac00]

I can think of two calibers I would use for heavy brush. Top of the line would be the 45-70 in 300gr, Next would be the 444, with a 240gr bullet. Both are bulldozers when it comes to brush and both will take down anything on the North American continent. My buddy has a Marlin in 444, LOVE that gun

I personally love my 30-30, I use 160gr FTX projectiles. I run it a little hot at 2600ft/sec. But she'll go through light brush, no problem

 

[GuyMontag]

But what if you can't or even the animal you need do shoot is coming at you to eat you?

4 Bore, nuff' said.

 

[Bananabandit]

Iraqvereran8888 has a couple of good videos on the subject. Take away is that blunt, heavy bullets at less velocity seem to be better. 45-70 performed well.

45acp?

 

[MilesTeg]

Lol no shotguns? I still consider my 20ga 1187 my brush gun. It's short light and reliable. I love rifles but if I'm walking through some crap the odds are I won't be able to reach out very far. I find the semi auto shotgun desirable in this situation.

I might be partial to this setup because I swap barrels and it's my small game gun also. I've killed a lot of deer and small game with that gun, so it might be comfortable with it.

 

[Criticalt]

If need be I have Marlin 30-30, Henry 45-70, or Henry 45LC.

 

[S&W Fan]

I can think of two calibers I would use for heavy brush. Top of the line would be the 45-70 in 300gr, Next would be the 444, with a 240gr bullet. Both are bulldozers when it comes to brush and both will take down anything on the North American continent. My buddy has a Marlin in 444, LOVE that gun

I personally love my 30-30, I use 160gr FTX projectiles. I run it a little hot at 2600ft/sec. But she'll go through light brush, no problem

My very first rifle purchase at age 17 was a Marlin 444. Bought it from the now Loooong gone Brewerton Bait & gun shop. Needless to say that was a HELL of a first rifle at 17. Sold it not long after. I wish I still had her now though !

 

[garyv350]

My very first rifle purchase at age 17 was a Marlin 444. Bought it from the now Loooong gone Brewerton Bait & gun shop. Needless to say that was a HELL of a first rifle at 17. Sold it not long after. I wish I still had her now though !

You beat me to it....I still have one.
Marlin 444P.
Great gun.

 

[meketrefe]

4 Bore, nuff' said.

In case you find a blue whale in the brush? lol

 

[meketrefe]

Lol no shotguns? I still consider my 20ga 1187 my brush gun. It's short light and reliable. I love rifles but if I'm walking through some crap the odds are I won't be able to reach out very far. I find the semi auto shotgun desirable in this situation.

I might be partial to this setup because I swap barrels and it's my small game gun also. I've killed a lot of deer and small game with that gun, so it might be comfortable with it.

Good point. Perhaps shotguns are one of the most effective and inexpensive choice. Some with rifled barrels can be really accurate and some even smooth bore can be surprisingly accurate.
A 1-1/2 oz slug is going to stay put even after hitting a 1" diameter willow branch.

Ouch! LOL

 

[S&W Fan]

Been using Brenneke 3" magnum 12ga. slugs now for the better part of 20years. They hit like a freaking freight train.

 

[Jmac00]

4 Bore, nuff' said.

ya, because a 105 howitzer is just too big to carry

 

[JaguarJaguarGolf]

I need brush to explain my misses!

 

[Airborneguy]

Been using Brenneke 3" magnum 12ga. slugs now for the better part of 20years. They hit like a freaking freight train.

That's what I use when I take out my 12ga. My first deer was a big doe. I shot her mid body as she ran behind me about 10' away. Lifted her off her feet and threw her about 5' back. I remember it like it was yesterday in slow motion. Those things are hammers.

 

[meketrefe]

The shotgun is with no doubt an amazing tool shooting through bush and twigs specially because these shots happen at shorter
ranges around 25 to 50-60 yards that is where a shotgun is most effective. Some can be pretty accurate putting slug hits
close to each other.
In these situations grain is your friend. Grain compensates for the modest speeds that at the same time play to our advantage.
Grain = momentum. Momentum = harder to deflect.

Perhaps two calibers that are not all too frequent but are amazing are the 444 marlin for those who want to share bullets with
the 44 mag and the 450 marlin for those who like the 458 bore. Of course you have grandpas 45-70 and for those with more
modern firearms like the AR the 458 socom, 450 bushmaster and 50 Beowulf are pretty good at this role too.

One of the reasons I created the 35 gunner is because I can load it with 250-280gr bullets if I want too. Not as heavy as the 300gr
in the socom but in the end more energy on the target.

400gr Beowulf... I like the round idea but not so much the minute ream situation..

 

[nortatoga]

I don't Hunt much myself, But a friend of mine picked up a old Ruger carbine 44 mag a few years back and that's all he uses now ( He also scored a Ruger 96/44 recently) He says when he hits the deer they go down no run in them!

 

[MoMan]

For me a brush gun means a gun that is short, and easy to carry and maneuver in the brush. It doesn't really mean hammering rounds through the brush. I would have to go with either a shotgun with a rifled barrel shooting a quality round, or a lever action carbine in 30-30. Those would be my personal choices. YMMV

 

[meketrefe]

For me a brush gun means a gun that is short, and easy to carry and maneuver in the brush. It doesn't really mean hammering rounds through the brush. I would have to go with either a shotgun with a rifled barrel shooting a quality round, or a lever action carbine in 30-30. Those would be my personal choices. YMMV

That is a good point. The guns should be handy and not too heavy or long so one can maneuver easily through the thick.
When presented with a shot one should try to move to another angle with a clear path but if that is not possible then
a large caliber heavy hitter is going to be a better choice than any 30 caliber and below.
The 30-30 continues to be a great choice for those lever action lovers to hunt in the forest but it is not the ideal if
one hunts in a place where vegetation is really thick. The 30-30 will show a lot more deflection just like the 308, 30-06, 7.62x39, etc...
When we get to the also popular 35 remington things start to improve a lot.
There is lot of debate about what is a good Brush caliber but one property seems to always come on top: slower & heavy.

I think the key is momentum vs. energy. One can have a lot of energy but if one does not have the momentum then it most likely
be a futile attempt.

Of course the distance between the brush and the animal plays a huge role. you don't want that to be too far lets say 20-15 feet as
one will have higher chances to connect well in something between 5 to 15ft max. possibly better between 10ft and below.
IMO if the brush is that thick that distance might not be an issue as normally there is not too much room between clearings an
animal or a person might be walking through.

 

[meketrefe]

I mentioned the 450 marlin (left) because it is a small version of the mighty 458 win mag ( right) that is a proven
african bush caliber but too much for anything in most continents and hard to manage recoil wise.

also the amazing Browning BLR is available in the 450 marlin!

 

[Robin]

How Much Does Brush Deflect a Rifle Bullet?
Brush-Bucking Calibers and Bullets