Gun Myth #1: The 7.62x39 is a lot more popular than the 223 and 308W.

[meketrefe]

I decided to write about some Myths that for whatever reason have gone main stream.
The idea here is to provide some information that one might not easily find in the typical gun forum.

I am just another enthusiast like you so if we make a mistake please feel free to give your input and
the facts behind and we will correct any information here provided.
I hope we can keep these threads informative and positive.
If you want to let us know about a Myth please open a thread. We all want to learn more.

The 7.62x39 is a very popular and versatile cartridge. This cartridge was originally designed to be
manufactured in steel cases and to feed the the original Kalashnikov rifle.

I have heard many times comments about the power and popularity of this round and even compared
to 30-30 and 308 Winchester rounds. Comparing things out of context has no value. The round can
be used to hunt at short ranges but these light for caliber rounds cannot even begin to compare
to the legendary 30-30 or the powerful and compact 308 Winchester in terms of terminal performance.

The 308W can be found in many flavors and many modern chambers are fully compatible with the 7.62x51
NATO service rounds. The same happens between the 223 and 5.56 NATO that we will also evaluate.

I didn't want to make a dissection of each caliber that is something pretty well documented in many books
and articles and reloading manuals but more to really educate about how popular these cartridges are.

It is hard to measure the popularity based just on civilian use and sales because this constantly
fluctuates so what I did was to look at the countries that have embraced these rounds to the
point that they have been officially designated service rounds. We know many cartridges that are current
service rounds are popular among the population due to availability of ammo and/or components.
For this reason they are also the foundation and donors for many other cartriges both comercial and wildcat variants.

I am an avid enthusiast of ballistics and cartridges and associated history. I am also a data scientist by
trade so I took all the available information and created an aggregate to calculate
how many countries have embraced and ultimately adopted what rounds.

The statistics might not be 100% accurate but they should be pretty close.


CURRENTLY IN SERVICE AS OF NOV. 2016

7.62x39________________________________ 30 Countries

7.62x51 NATO / 308 Winchester _____ 49 Countries

5.56 / 223 ______________________________ 54 Countries.

5.45x39 _________________________________ 7 Countries.

I you want to know about other calibers please let me know.

Thanks.

 

[GOYABEAN]

I guess the 7.62x51 would be the oldest of the five as far Inception and the 5.56 / 223 the newest !

Or am I wrong more than likely

 

[meketrefe]

7.62x39 is the oldest from 1944. In Russia and a few other countries was displaced by the 5.45x39 in 1974 in an effort to
increase firepower and compete with the 5.56(1963) but the rather anemic 5.45 failed and it is only a matter of time until disappears.
the 7.62x51 was born in 1954 derived from the 308 winchester that at the same time derived from the parent 300 savage.

 

[GOYABEAN]

7.62x39 is the oldest from 1944. In Russia and a few other countries was displaced by the 5.45x39 in 1974 in an effort to
increase firepower and compete with the 5.56(1963) but the rather anemic 5.45 failed and it is only a matter of time until disappears.
the 7.62x51 was born in 1954 derived from the 308 winchester that at the same time derived from the parent 300 savage.

 

[gun_slinger_boy]

This thread is a great idea! I always just have fun with the caliber war threads because they are usually comparing apples to oranges instead of usages. Like 5.56x45 vs 7.62x39 instead of more practical comparisons like 5.45x39 vs 5.56x45 or 7.62x51 vs 7.62x63. I'd personally like to know what you think about the overall ballistics of 5.45x39 vs 5.56x45. Purely from a ballistics standpoint. I prefer the 5.45x39 mostly because of the ruggedness and reliability of the platform it was built around but feel they are very similar. I also like the way it achieves it's terminal ballistics.

 

[Marine Cpl]

There are lots of myths that make people's butts hurt when it comes to calibers.

They've been repeated over and over thoroughout the years and interpreted as fact.

Here's one. The Philippinos couldn't be dropped with a .38 FMJ because they were high. Once the .45 ACP was adopted at less than a millimeter larger, they dropped where they stood.

Another one is the frozen Chinese coats stopping carbine bullets.

Such nonsense.

 

[Jem45472]

7.62 my 300blk will smoke it. J/k

 

[Uzi]

7.62 X 35 for the win!

 

[meketrefe]

This thread is a great idea! I always just have fun with the caliber war threads because they are usually comparing apples to oranges instead of usages. Like 5.56x45 vs 7.62x39 instead of more practical comparisons like 5.45x39 vs 5.56x45 or 7.62x51 vs 7.62x63. I'd personally like to know what you think about the overall ballistics of 5.45x39 vs 5.56x45. Purely from a ballistics standpoint. I prefer the 5.45x39 mostly because of the ruggedness and reliability of the platform it was built around but feel they are very similar. I also like the way it achieves it's terminal ballistics.

going to a smaller and faster caliber was a good move. The problem is that they restricted the round too much by preconceived design parameters and the 22caliber fetish at the time. This resulted in a round that with the 55K psi limit could not really provide the necessary speed and momentum to be more effective. It doesn't mean it is not somewhat effective but they had to create their own propaganda around "the poison" bullet to increase its popularity. Going lighter is good, After all the same shooter can carry a lot more firepower but after China experienced this round
and decided to go with a brand new 6mm round then Russia was left alone. It will not take too long until Russia either adopts the 5.56 or gets into a 6mm, perhaps
even using the Chinese 6mm baseline but they are too proud for that. Still, the 5.45 can do a lot of things but unfortunately it falls short according to modern standards. It could be pumped a tad if anyone invested but there is no interest in the case specially with cases like the 6.8 and the latest 5.56 / 223 offerings.

Comparing calibers w/o context and a purpose is fruitless. I have seen professional writers trying to compare the 7.62x39 with the 30/30. Of course
this people write and the article might even look good but ends up being pure rubbish. Some are magazines people actually buy.
Even the so popular Lyman's reloading manual is full of errors and outdated load information and it is not cheap.

 

[meketrefe]

7.62 my 300blk will smoke it. J/k

7.62 X 35 for the win!

The whisper / blackout is great for subsonic work but in the supersonic world it is even slower than the Russian and no major military
will adopt it. There is no one single attribute in the offering that has been ever a criteria of selection for a service round.
It doesn't mean we don't have to like it. It is what it is.

 

[Jem45472]

The whisper / blackout is great for subsonic work but in the supersonic world it is even slower than the Russian and no major military
will adopt it. There is no one single attribute in the offering that has been ever a criteria of selection for a service round.
It doesn't mean we don't have to like it. It is what it is.

Agree. Too bad no cans here. (maybe someday) This is a topic for a different thread, but what are your thoughts of 300 vs 7.62x39 for short barrels? I went with the 300 solely for the benefits of it in an 8.5" ar pistol.

 

[Bananabandit]

I prefer x39, but they all work.

 

[GOPerfect]

Here's one. The Philippinos couldn't be dropped with a .38 FMJ because they were high. Once the .45 ACP was adopted at less than a millimeter larger, they dropped where they stood.

This one is kind of true...

The pistol was designed to comply with the requirements of the U.S. Army, which, during its campaign against the Moros in Philippines, had seen its trusty .38 revolver to be incapable of stopping attackers. An Ordnance Board headed by Col. John T. Thompson had reached the conclusion that the army needed a .45" caliber cartridge, to provide adequate stopping power.

Not completely because they were high...

A highly motivated tribe of warriors, known as the Moro, were giving the U.S. Army fits in the Philippines. To prepare for battle, the Moro used a combination of body binding with leather, narcotics, and religious ritual to put themselves into an altered state of consciousness which left them insensible to injury. Soldiers found that their revolvers chambered in .38 Long Colt simply would not stop the Moro.

 

[Marine Cpl]

This one is kind of true...

The pistol was designed to comply with the requirements of the U.S. Army, which, during its campaign against the Moros in Philippines, had seen its trusty .38 revolver to be incapable of stopping attackers. An Ordnance Board headed by Col. John T. Thompson had reached the conclusion that the army needed a .45" caliber cartridge, to provide adequate stopping power.

Not completely because they were high...

A highly motivated tribe of warriors, known as the Moro, were giving the U.S. Army fits in the Philippines. To prepare for battle, the Moro used a combination of body binding with leather, narcotics, and religious ritual to put themselves into an altered state of consciousness which left them insensible to injury. Soldiers found that their revolvers chambered in .38 Long Colt simply would not stop the Moro.

You do realize that a .38 FMJ will put a hole through a body on both sides at a minimum of .357 in diameter while a .45 FMJ will put a hole thorough both sides of a body at a minimum of .450 in diameter.

One millimeter larger isn't going to make a difference.

It is a wives tale that has been repeated throughout the years. There is scientific evidence that proves that.

 

[GOPerfect]

You do realize that a .38 FMJ will put a hole through a body on both sides at a minimum of .357 in diameter while a .45 FMJ will put a hole thorough both sides of a body at a minimum of .450 in diameter.

One millimeter larger isn't going to make a difference.

It is a wives tale that has been repeated throughout the years. There is scientific evidence that proves that.

This was the exact reason that Col. John T. Thompson gave to get a new caliber. He was the director of the Ordnance Board at the time. These were his words and reasons, not something that others made up. Doesn't make a difference what the overall damage is or was, this was his reason for the change.

 

[Marine Cpl]

This was the exact reason that Col. John T. Thompson gave to get a new caliber. He was the director of the Ordnance Board at the time. These were his words and reasons, not something that others made up. Doesn't make a difference what the overall damage is or was, this was his reason for the change.

I see your point. What I'm saying is that the adopting of the round that's a millimeter larger didn't make a difference ballistically against those soldiers yet because he adopted it, people accept it as fact that ballistically it was miles superior when it really wasn't.

 

[meketrefe]

Here knock yourselves out.
History of service rifles and ammo.

Service rifle - Wikipedia

 

[dsdmmat]

Where did you get the number of countries for each caliber? What criteria was used for these numbers?

I have been around the world a few times and have seen AK47s in more than 30 countries.

 

[GOYABEAN]

This one is kind of true...

The pistol was designed to comply with the requirements of the U.S. Army, which, during its campaign against the Moros in Philippines, had seen its trusty .38 revolver to be incapable of stopping attackers. An Ordnance Board headed by Col. John T. Thompson had reached the conclusion that the army needed a .45" caliber cartridge, to provide adequate stopping power.

Not completely because they were high...

A highly motivated tribe of warriors, known as the Moro, were giving the U.S. Army fits in the Philippines. To prepare for battle, the Moro used a combination of body binding with leather, narcotics, and religious ritual to put themselves into an altered state of consciousness which left them insensible to injury. Soldiers found that their revolvers chambered in .38 Long Colt simply would not stop the Moro.

So that can also occur in today's PCP and Synthetic weed and Bath salt's Zombie world

 

[meketrefe]

Where did you get the number of countries for each caliber? What criteria was used for these numbers?

The numbers are taken by selecting the service firearms by country and the calibers they are chambered for for each country.
Then we filter by currently in service and do a distinct count so we do not double count if there are several firearms that use the same caliber.
For example in Rusia we have several firearms in 5.45x39 for MBR and also several for 7.62x39 but the result for Rusia is one count for each for
this caliber.
If we take the largest countries we will see that China replaced their MBR with 5.8x42mm and Russia with 5.45x39 yet I still count the 7.62x39 in both
countries. In India is 5.56 and 7.62x51 Same as Canada, US, Australia, and most South Asia and European nations.
I have been all over the world too and have seen AKs in more than 30 countries too.
I have also seen AKs, VZs, Galil, etc.. all chambered for 5.56. Also Mauser rifles in almost every single country.
This was not intended to determine in how many countries one can find the 7.62x39 and/or AKs but to assess its popularity by
massive adoption due to being a service rifle. Of course one can find the 7.62x39 in many more countries where is not a service round but the same can
be said about the 223/5.56 and 7.62x51.
Izmash engineers have been very open about how accurate their Russian rifles are with the 308 and 5.56 chamberings.

 

[dsdmmat]

Where are you getting your numbers? Got a link?

The reason I ask is there are 195/196 counties in the world ( depending on how you count Taiwan) and according to this link 106 have their armed forces or special forces armed with AK-47s.

RIP Kalashnikov: 20 facts you may not have known about AK-47 and its creator

 

[Clipazine]

7.62x39mm for me please.

As far as most popular, In MY cabinet it is! I dont own a single round of 308W

Edit: i lied. I do actually own a single round of .308 i found on the ground at a range.

 

[meketrefe]

My information is from public domain and public records. When a country officially adopts a rifle I put it on a spreadsheet.
I keep this up to date with the history of firearms and cartridges around the world. I also put the chamber and date.
I just compared my spreadsheet with the service rifle collection in the online encyclopedia and I will have to
review it again but I think for the most part it is accurate other than UK where the 7.62x51 was missing.

Service rifle - Wikipedia

So my list might not include every single country but based on the countries I have I think we can say it covers
99% of the total usage and it is pretty close from being accurate and current. I am not sure anyone can say
they have a 100% perfect list.

As I mentioned we are talking about officially adopted calibers. I am not sure where the writer above is coming up with
the AK-47 count and verification that every single Kalashnikov he counts is an official service round nor the AK is in fact chambered for the 7.62x39.
Do you know?

Many people (including writers) refer to AK47 when in reality they might be talking about an AK74, 100 series, M21, Beryl, Galil, etc..
Some look the same or very similar outside but they are not chambered in 7.62x39.

 

[dsdmmat]

Officially The AK-47 is chambered in 7.62x39mm anything else is not an AK-47.

I have never in all of my travels outside the US seen an AK-47 that was not a 7.62x39. I have seen an AK-74 a couple of times in the hands or Romainan Soldiers but, other than that all the AK-47s were 7.62x39mm.

 

[meketrefe]

I know, the magazine and muzzle are a clear tell signs of 7.62 vs. other chambers.
The question here is not if we can tell them apart (that we do) but when people write these articles or speak about them
do they refer to the 7.62 only when they say AK47 / Kalashnikov? Many people all over call anything looking like a kalasnikov an AK47
as well. Perhaps because it was the first one and the original.


I am now intrigued about the writer's comment...

" 5. Military and special forces in 106 countries around the globe from Afghanistan to Zimbabwe are now armed with AK-47s. "

There is no denying the popularity of the AK47 but I don't really know what the above means in relation to the 7.62x39 in question. The autor doesn't say.

If the San Bernadino PD swat team buys a bunch of AKs do we count the USA too?
Or if the Swedish special forces use a few AKs on a Special mission do we count Sweden too?

 

[dsdmmat]

It says military and special forces so if their special forces officially procures them it would count. Our military has procured the AK-47 for use in clandestine missions as well as for other countries ( Afghanistan, Iraq and others) so the us would be counted if I were writing the article.

The manufacture of the AK47 has been licensed in 30 countries as well.

 

[meketrefe]

I get your point and If I was to put that I would need the data for all the countries that adopted the 7.62x39 but also the 223/5.56
and 308/7.62x51 in supplementary roles other than official service rounds. Then all the counts will go up for all those calibers. I just don't have that information.

I don't know anyone who has all that nor a place to find it but I am open to suggestions.

I see one could be easily get off tracks. That is why I am only using officialy confirmed factual data.
Also not having all the countries is not that critical anyway since we have many countries (including the largest countries) that make for 99% of the worlds population.

Thanks for the challenging questions. I am trying to do this from facts and put believes and perceptions aside.

 

[dsdmmat]

Every little dictatorship in Africa has three calibers 7.62x51, 7.62x39 and 5.56 courtesy of the French, Brits, Americans and the Soviets.

 

[pseudonymity]

Popular in what way? Number of guns in use for that caliber, number of countries using the caliber or number of rounds fired? Quite a few countries that use 5.56 and x51 do not fire much of it in an actual battle situation, but the few countries that do certainly use quite a bit of ammo. x39 may not be in use formally in countries, but it certainly is in use in small conflicts where it makes a big difference. I suspect that Russia expended a lot of 5.45 in the North Caucusus in the 90s and it doesn't take too many minutes going hot on a M134 before you have fired more rounds of x51 than a combat battalion.

 

[meketrefe]

We are trying to get away from belief systems, so come on friends,
provide a method with corroborated facts and numbers behind those nice thoughts and conjectures.