Legality of .458 SOCOM Magazines, 10 Round

[freddy]

Any case law, yet, to help clarify the legality of 10-round .458 SOCOM magazines?

...With, or without, proprietary follower?
...With, or without, labeling magazine '.458 SOCOM'?
...For the sake of argument, let us assume the possessor has a .458 SOCOM upper.
​

If no case law, then what do we have to support legal possession of 10-round .458 SOCOM magazines?

The .458 SOCOM is expressly designed to hold 10 rounds in unmodified 30-round AR magazines.
.458 SOCOM - Wikipedia

From PL 265 definitions:

23. “Large capacity ammunition feeding device” means a magazine, belt, drum, feed strip, or similar device, that (a) has a capacity of, or that can be readily restored or converted to accept, more than ten rounds of ammunition...​

 

[Deplorable Me]

Easy. Keep your magazines loaded and the rifle behind the door. .458 SOCOM rifle and 10 round mags. Have plenty of ammo and reloading components handy.

 

[Marine Cpl]

From a legal standpoint, if installed with a .458 Socom follower, they can't say anything. You can stuff 11 rounds in a .40 S&W magazine too but people aren't afraid of those.

Whether a cop sees it that way it's another story but you should beat it with no problem.

 

[Robin]

Seems like the fact that a .223 will not feed and fire through such a configuration would be proof enough.

Robin

 

[freddy]

Seems like the fact that a .223 will not feed and fire through such a configuration would be proof enough.
View attachment 27473
Robin

I believe the concern is that 30 rounds of .223 ammo would function in the .458 mag inserted into a 223 rifle. Unless I am not understanding your point.

 

[Marine Cpl]

I believe the concern is that 30 rounds of .223 ammo would function in the .458 mag inserted into a 223 rifle. Unless I am not understanding your point.

With the .458 Socom follower?

 

[freddy]

With the .458 Socom follower?

I imagine that the answer is yes. The bottom round or two may not feed, but the upper 28 should feed.

 

[Marine Cpl]

I imagine that the answer is yes. The bottom round or two may not feed, but the upper 28 should feed.

I'd like to see that in action. Not doubting you but I wish there was a youtube video out there showing reliability. Personally with the .458 Socom installed, I wouldn't take the chance on a jam. I'd prefer to use 10 rounders than that.

 

[Robin]

They just won't fit, you could stuff a hundred .22 long's in there too, with the same result.


Robin

 

[Robin]

 

[freddy]

I'd like to see that in action. Not doubting you but I wish there was a youtube video out there showing reliability. Personally with the .458 Socom installed, I wouldn't take the chance on a jam. I'd prefer to use 10 rounders than that.

They just won't fit, you could stuff a hundred .22 long's in there too, with the same result.
View attachment 27474
View attachment 27475
Robin

Not sure I understand these.

Here is the scenario I wonder about... The DA presents the jury a magazine labeled '458 SOCOM' (with or without a 458 follower) and proceeds to load well over 10 rounds of 223 into it. Experts then testify that these mags will fire in a 223 rifle. The defendant possesses both a 458 rifle and a 223 rifle. Where does the defense go from here?

 

[Robin]

They won't function. And a reasonably good Defense attorney would make him look like a fool, or worse, a prosecutor trying to mislead the jury.
Robin

 

[Marine Cpl]

Not sure I understand these.

Here is the scenario I wonder about... The DA presents the jury a magazine labeled '458 SOCOM' and proceeds to load well over 10 rounds of 223 into it.

I went through this line of thought in the past. I'm always looking to skirt laws to work for me. In the end it's not worth it for range use or self defense in the home. It is just not worth it. You can make 10 rounders work.

It is probably easier to just buy 30 rounders and bury them for when laws do not matter which is what most do.

 

[freddy]

They won't function. And a reasonably good Defense attorney would make him look like a fool, or worse, a prosecutor trying to mislead the jury.
Robin

Why won't they function, please?

 

[freddy]

I went through this line of thought in the past. I'm always looking to skirt laws to work for me. In the end it's not worth it for range use or self defense in the home. It is just not worth it. You can make 10 rounders work.

It is probably easier to just buy 30 rounders and bury them for when laws do not matter which is what most do.

You are saying it is too risky. Having 10 round 458 SOCOM mags is not worth it. Correct?

 

[Marine Cpl]

You are saying it is too risky. Having 10 round 458 SOCOM mags is not worth it. Correct?

Not if you are going to use them with .223.

1. Legality
2. Reliabilty
3. Not worth the hassle unless you really want a .458 Socom Upper.

It's much easier to just buy 30's, load them, and bury them.

 

[Robin]

Look at the difference in the followers. It doesn't take much to muck up a magazine so it won't feed properly. Are you saying that the .450 mag would work in a .223 upper when loaded with .223 ammo? Guess I'm not on the same page.
Robin

 

[freddy]

Look at the difference in the followers. It doesn't take much to muck up a magazine so it won't feed properly. Are you saying that the .450 mag would work in a .223 upper when loaded with .223 ammo? Guess I'm not on the same page.
Robin

Yes, the 223 mag and 458 mag are identical in every way. A 458 follower is optional. The 458 was specifically designed to work this way. The only difference is capacity. The same mag will hold 30 of 223 or 10 of 458.

Explained here: .458 SOCOM - Wikipedia

 

[freddy]

Not if you are going to use them with .223.

1. Legality
2. Reliabilty
3. Not worth the hassle unless you really want a .458 Socom Upper.

It's much easier to just buy 30's, load them, and bury them.

I would not use them with 223. Only with 458.

 

[Robin]

But the .458 follower would cause the 223 in place properly and cause it to jamb.
Robin

 

[Robin]

A cop would have to be a real jerk to run you in for that, a DA would have to be an even bigger jerk to take it to court.
It would be cool to have all those scary black guns lined up in front of the bar as the DA gets taken apart.
Robin

 

[freddy]

But the .458 follower would cause the 223 in place properly and cause it to jamb.
Robin

The 458 follower would center the bottom 223 cartridge left to right. The rounds above that would naturally offset left, right, left, right, etc. Feeding would be sub-optimal for the bottom few rounds. Perhaps no feeding at all for the bottom few rounds. But the top 20 rounds? They would most likely feed just fine.

 

[freddy]

A cop would have to be a real jerk to run you in for that, a DA would have to be an even bigger jerk to take it to court.
It would be cool to have all those scary black guns lined up in front of the bar as the DA gets taken apart.
Robin

Ha! Yes.

 

[Robin]

I guess I would have to see that. Kind of a moot point though if the gun is all set up for the .458, they have to take things as they find them and not interpret maybe's and what if's, anymore than if your corvette was parked at the range and he gives you ticket because you might speed, or probably already eclipsed the speed limit. If everything else is right and the mag is for a .458, your good.
Just a curiosity, will any vendor actually send a ten round .458 magazine to NY?
Robin

 

[freddy]

I guess I would have to see that. Kind of a moot point though if the gun is all set up for the .458, they have to take things as they find them and not interpret maybe's and what if's, anymore than if your corvette was parked at the range and he gives you ticket because you might speed, or probably already eclipsed the speed limit. If everything else is right and the mag is for a .458, your good.
Just a curiosity, will any vendor actually send a ten round .458 magazine to NY?
Robin

I do not know if a vendor will deliver to NY the 10 round .458 mags.

You and a friend go for a trip, to the range for example. In the trunk you have your .223 rifle and several of your .223 10-round mags. Your friend has his 458 rifle and several of his 10-round .458 mags. You each bring several boxes of ammo. The mags are functionally identical except that it is possible to put 30 rounds of .223 into the 10-round .458 mags and fire them from your rifle. You get pulled over by a cop behind on his quota. The DA is anti gun. The mags look the same. You claim these mags are for the .223 rifle and these other mags are for the .458 rifle.

Same at home. You have a .223 rifle and 10-round 223 mags. You also have a .458 rifle with 10-round .458 mags. You have ammo for both. The police come and search your house based on a warrant but afterwards realize they have the wrong address. Nonetheless, they charge you for having several large capacity feeding device.

They say the 10-round .458 mags can be loaded with 30 rounds of .223 and fired from a .223 rifle. They would be correct. Even though you never have done that, nor intended to do that.

See the issue?

 

[camper4lyfe]

I may not be Batman, but we've never been seen in the same room together.

 

[Podmonkey]

Well, there are 30/10 and 20/10 magazines so some eager beaver tyrant's whore can't go by looks alone, and if you are shooting 10 rounds at a time even if said whore were counting rounds off at the range 10 wouldn't raise suspicion correct? I know this sort of thing works in Canada.

 

[Marine Cpl]

I do not know if a vendor will deliver to NY the 10 round .458 mags.

You and a friend go for a trip, to the range for example. In the trunk you have your .223 rifle and several of your .223 10-round mags. Your friend has his 458 rifle and several of his 10-round .458 mags. You each bring several boxes of ammo. The mags are functionally identical except that it is possible to put 30 rounds of .223 into the 10-round .458 mags and fire them from your rifle. You get pulled over by a cop behind on his quota. The DA is anti gun. The mags look the same. You claim these mags are for the .223 rifle and these other mags are for the .458 rifle.

Same at home. You have a .223 rifle and 10-round 223 mags. You also have a .458 rifle with 10-round .458 mags. You have ammo for both. The police come and search your house based on a warrant but afterwards realize they have the wrong address. Nonetheless, they charge you for having several large capacity feeding device.

They say the 10-round .458 mags can be loaded with 30 rounds of .223 and fired from a .223 rifle. They would be correct. Even though you never have done that, nor intended to do that.

See the issue?

That's why it isn't worth it for me unless I really needed the .458 which I don't because a .308 will kill any animal in North America whether 2 legged or 4 legged. I'd much rather have the .308. Standard capacity can still be had if that was a concern of mine.

 

[Podmonkey]

That's why it isn't worth it for me unless I really needed the .458 which I don't because a .308 will kill any animal in North America whether 2 legged or 4 legged. I'd much rather have the .308. Standard capacity can still be had if that was a concern of mine.

.308 is quite efficient out of short barrels too.
That said there is something undeniably cool about having what is essentially a semi auto
45-70 gov't carbine.

 

[Robin]

I do not know if a vendor will deliver to NY the 10 round .458 mags.

You and a friend go for a trip, to the range for example. In the trunk you have your .223 rifle and several of your .223 10-round mags. Your friend has his 458 rifle and several of his 10-round .458 mags. You each bring several boxes of ammo. The mags are functionally identical except that it is possible to put 30 rounds of .223 into the 10-round .458 mags and fire them from your rifle. You get pulled over by a cop behind on his quota. The DA is anti gun. The mags look the same. You claim these mags are for the .223 rifle and these other mags are for the .458 rifle.

Same at home. You have a .223 rifle and 10-round 223 mags. You also have a .458 rifle with 10-round .458 mags. You have ammo for both. The police come and search your house based on a warrant but afterwards realize they have the wrong address. Nonetheless, they charge you for having several large capacity feeding device.

They say the 10-round .458 mags can be loaded with 30 rounds of .223 and fired from a .223 rifle. They would be correct. Even though you never have done that, nor intended to do that.

See the issue?

Oh, I see the issue all right, though I am still not sure the .458 mag will feed .223. I guess they have succeeded in a large part of their goal in that gun owners in general are leery of using their AR anywhere in this new age fascist shit hole, no mater the configuration. Yeah, if a cop wants to jack you up for his own amusement, no mater what you got, they can, and where the rubber meets the road, his superiors will back him.
Robin