Marine Corps Will Likely Adopt Army's 5.56 !

[GOYABEAN]

Marine Corps Will Likely Adopt Army 5.56 Rifle Round, General Says - Kit Up!

 

[Podmonkey]

I wish it were the other way around. The more I learn about the M885A1 the more I dislike it. You can count surplus out too.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Congress is getting tired of all this nonsense.

 

[Podmonkey]

These rounds generate something around 63,000 psi of chamber pressure y'know. The proof pressure is 65,000 innit?

 

[stuck in ny]

Is it worth the ap power if it destroys the weapon?

 

[Podmonkey]

Is it worth the ap power if it destroys the weapon?

Its not even compatible with other NATO 5.56 rifles/carbines due to the high pressure. Also if the tip misses the feed ramp it will dimple the hell out of whatever it hits. Also there is some scuttlebut about the tips ocasionally dislodging and jamming up actions.
The Mk 318 would have been a simple and effective upgrade. To hell with being "green".

 

[Marine Cpl]

If I was in charge of the Green Machine, I'd go with a solid copper hollow point. You get the best of both worlds. Solid penetration and expansion.

 

[meketrefe]

These rounds generate something around 63,000 psi of chamber pressure y'know. The proof pressure is 65,000 innit?

About the same pressure the 55gr M193 from lake city runs along with many other rounds including Hornady's superformance commerical ammo.
The proof pressure cartriges go up to 70,000psi ... M197 spec?.
H&K, Colt and FN are the only ones who have done extensive HP testing. Everyone else lies about that.

 

[meketrefe]

Its not even compatible with other NATO 5.56 rifles/carbines due to the high pressure. Also if the tip misses the feed ramp it will dimple the hell out of whatever it hits. Also there is some scuttlebut about the tips ocasionally dislodging and jamming up actions.
The Mk 318 would have been a simple and effective upgrade. To hell with being "green".

What 5.56 rifles are not compatible with the M855A1?
Is there a comprehensive testing and corresponding papers or you read this in some forum?

 

[meketrefe]

here knock yourself out..

http://www.emilitarymanuals.com/pdf/AR-15/TM43-0001-27.pdf

 

[Marine Cpl]

The PMag is the solution to the M855A1 in the M27 rifle.

Army Round Triggers Problems in Marine M27 Auto Rifle | Military.com

 

[Marine Cpl]

The one good thing about the M855A1 is that being that the rest of the round is solid copper, it won't fragment when going through mud bricks.

 

[meketrefe]

The USGI mags work great with any ammo when upgraded with the magpul follower.
The mags need to be conditioned with a stone and well cleaned and then they become
some of the best mags anyone is going to have no matter what system.
The Pmags are also awesome magazines but will not work better with all systems given
the option to use an upgraded USGI.
Both designs have pros and cons.

 

[Marine Cpl]

@meketrefe , what do you think of the M855A1? It now loses fragmentation.

 

[meketrefe]

@meketrefe , what do you think of the M855A1? It now loses fragmentation.

Will,
What we know is from all the tests and it seems to have enough fragments and decent pentetration over 18-22 inches in gel.
So it meets the requirements.

 

[Podmonkey]

Seems like it wouldn't be the best round to slap steel with anyways.

 

[meketrefe]

Seems like it wouldn't be the best round to slap steel with anyways.

Yep that is the idea. Better for cars, glass and what not.
If someone accelerates on a checkpoint then the idea is to stop them ASAP in case they intend to explode a vehicle.
Distances have increased yet the new round does better than ever before.
It is Liberty's design that the Army stole from them. They had to pay them after the Army lost the law suit.
So we paid them you and I.

 

[Podmonkey]

Yep that is the idea. Better for cars, glass and what not.
If someone accelerates on a checkpoint then the idea is to stop them ASAP in case they intend to explode a vehicle.
Distances have increased yet the new round does better than ever before.
It is Liberty's design that the Army stole from them. They had to pay them after the Army lost the law suit.
So we paid them you and I.

I have less of an issue paying Liberty (I read all about that too) than I do underwriting the defense of whiny, weak, ingrate Europeans.

Also, so far I am really liking the Lancer hybrid mags, which are available in 10 and 10/30 versions BTW. Did you know the Lancer company was originally a subsidiary of Canadian Colt affiliate Deimarco? The Lancer AWM was originally an M16 mag replacement/supplement program. The "green mag" they called it.
Colt killed the program though.

 

[meketrefe]

I have less of an issue paying Liberty (I read all about that too) than I do underwriting the defense of whiny, weak, ingrate Europeans.

Also, so far I am really liking the Lancer hybrid mags, which are available in 10 and 10/30 versions BTW. Did you know the Lancer company was originally a subsidiary of Canadian Colt affiliate Deimarco? The Lancer AWM was originally an M16 mag replacement/supplement program. The "green mag" they called it.
Colt killed the program though.

For defense/shtf/tactical use the old M855 will also work fine and they are well priced.
They go through pretty hard steel where the AK, blackout, 30 carbine, and others will fail.
I think most of us will do just fine with the barnes TSX for whatever we need including hunting.
I like the winchester but they are a bit pussyfied in pressure. Although one can use the same bonded bullets and
make a faster round.
One bullet to consider very seriously is the 77gr TMK from black hills. Might not have the penetration of others
but it provides broad wounding like the 80gr Amax, now the ELD.

Plenty of good options.

 

[Podmonkey]

C'mon buddy, I got 2k of those 77gr IMIs. My range testing indicates they are about equal to the Black Hills stuff. I am keeping at least a few hundred of the 64gr Gold Dots. But I am going to start stocking a large quantity of that GGG M855 based on my range test.

 

[meketrefe]

C'mon buddy, I got 2k of those 77gr IMIs. My range testing indicates they are about equal to the Black Hills stuff. I am keeping at least a few hundred of the 64gr Gold Dots. But I am going to start stocking a large quantity of that GGG M855 based on my range test.

Not MK262 but 77gr TMK (Sierra's Tipped Match King).
It shoots flatter, further and hits harder.

Black Hills 5.56mm NATO Ammo 77 Grain Tipped MatchKing

 

[Podmonkey]

I doubt the difference is very significant within 400yds. That is all the distance I can expect of my abilty and a 16" carbine.
Plus the IMI is about $335.00 per 500 round case. I'm gonna call a 2k stash good and focus on other needs. Still not really sure how the Gold Dots fit in, other than an all purpose option.
I'd bet the M855A1 gets labelled as AP though. I don't expect we will see surplus of it on the shelves. Being lead free I'm sure its too expensive as well. .65 a round is as high as I'll go for 5.56. 1.00+ is not sustainable. And for "serious" use I think crimped and sealed primers and case mouths are required. Is it possible to do such with handloads?

 

[meketrefe]

have fun..
Ammunition Cross Sections

 

[Marine Cpl]

Will,
What we know is from all the tests and it seems to have enough fragments and decent pentetration over 18-22 inches in gel.
So it meets the requirements.

What do you mean by fragments? It's solid copper.

Yep that is the idea. Better for cars, glass and what not.
If someone accelerates on a checkpoint then the idea is to stop them ASAP in case they intend to explode a vehicle.
Distances have increased yet the new round does better than ever before.
It is Liberty's design that the Army stole from them. They had to pay them after the Army lost the law suit.
So we paid them you and I.

I get all that but what will it do on a body say 100 yards away with no barrier? If it doesn't fragment like I think it won't because solid copper doesn't, I'll just pin prick through with no energy transfer.

 

[meketrefe]

What do you mean by fragments? It's solid copper.



I get all that but what will it do on a body say 100 yards away with no barrier? If it doesn't fragment like I think it won't because solid copper doesn't, I'll just pin prick through with no energy transfer.

The jacket splits, the steel tip goes one side the slug follows. It makes a big mess.

 

[Marine Cpl]

The jacket splits, the steel tip goes one side the slug follows. It makes a big mess.

Cool. What do you think in comparison to TTSX for a guy or a deer?

 

[meketrefe]

Cool. What do you think in comparison to TTSX for a guy or a deer?

Big mess too. The TTSX depends on weight with the most consistent mushrooms to the 62gr TTSX
The 55gr TSX might split in two or more pieces. It always musrooms too and sometimes the petals fall off. Either way a big mess.
This behaviour is tipical regarless or caliber given speed on impact is above 1800fps but ideally above 2100fps for maximum results that is pretty good.
The M855A1 we know is better for very hard steel and type III body armor but if that is a conern then mgiht be
able to get some penetration from a hot 55gr TSX in hardened steel.
But I think the 62gr TTSX is hard to beat for all purpose and it does well in doors and glass too. Ballistically better too.
Just need an ammo brand that pushes them hot and fast. Otherwise reload with H4895 or CFE that will be the cheapest choice.
Once fired lake city Nato brass or WCC nato or match that have the highest capacity and can take the heat.
lapua also takes the heat pretty well but has a tad less capacity.

 

[meketrefe]

The 70gr TSX is a bit too much and only for very deep penetration as it strikes at slower speeds it doesn't open
that much and can over penetrate. so better for the largest animals and heavy bones to speed up mushrooming.

 

[meketrefe]

I have been reloading the 35 gunner today. Some 200gr big hoochie mommas.
2,350fps. Those are great to flip the car upside down. LOL

 

[meketrefe]

I am going to try some 80gr solids that should give me 3300-3400fps. you would like those for your frying pans.