Mid-Level AR Barrels?

[UltraT]

Hey guys,
After my trigger thread, I'm looking towards the next AR upgrade which would be a barrel. I've slowly been upgrading my entry-level AR to something that would be more equal to mid-level. So I'm looking for opinions on mid-level AR barrels. Something that isn't as expensive as say Noveske, DD, or BCM, but that would give me better than typical accuracy. 2 MOA (or better) would make me very happy if that's doable at this price level.

What is your advice?

(P.S. I'd like to stick with Gov't profile, no heavy barrels)

 

[Frankly]

Black Hole Weaponary, White Oak, Centurion, Aero Precision

There are newer profiles that are more efficient, also fluting isn't out of sight.

 

[dsdmmat]

Hey guys,
After my trigger thread, I'm looking towards the next AR upgrade which would be a barrel. I've slowly been upgrading my entry-level AR to something that would be more equal to mid-level. So I'm looking for opinions on mid-level AR barrels. Something that isn't as expensive as say Noveske, DD, or BCM, but that would give me better than typical accuracy. 2 MOA (or better) would make me very happy if that's doable at this price level.

What is your advice?

(P.S. I'd like to stick with Gov't profile, no heavy barrels)

Your current barrel does not do 2 MOA?

 

[UltraT]

Black Hole Weaponary, White Oak, Centurion, Aero Precision

There are newer profiles that are more efficient, also fluting isn't out of sight.

Thanks, I'll check them out.

Your current barrel does not do 2 MOA?

I'm not totally sure yet, I have to test it some more. I didn't have a good steady setup before for bench resting, it didn't look promising though. So even though the thread is a bit premature, I'd still like to hear what you guys have to say about it.

 

[Frankly]

If you have an entry level barrel then what did it cost in the grand scheme of things? $50-$75. If you pop $250 on a name brand barrel and it makes you feel better about shooting the gun - and you're able to afford it - then why not treat yourself? It may be silly but it's your gun, be happy.

Without getting into a debate, look for a 16" mid-gas rather than a carbine as it will be a bit lighter shooting. Or an 18" with rifle length gas, even better but heavier.

As to twist everybody pushes 1:7 but that's if you're shooting hotter 77g rounds. If you shoot cheap 55g stuff like most people then a 1:8 will be preferable.

Don't forget you ideally want a new bolt (not bolt carrier group) to mesh with the new barrel.

And if you truly have an entry level rifle then you're probably also in the market for a free float hand guard and gas block, etc. lots to consider.... may be easier just to buy a complete upper than to swap parts around.

 

[dsdmmat]

Thanks, I'll check them out.
I'm not totally sure yet, I have to test it some more. I didn't have a good steady setup before for bench resting, it didn't look promising though. So even though the thread is a bit premature, I'd still like to hear what you guys have to say about it.

I say don't waste your money until you find out how your current barrel shoots. If you are trying to make milsurp ammo shot less than MOA you might have issues. Grab some FGMM Federal Premium Gold Medal Ammo 223 Remington 69 Grain Sierra and a couple of sandbags then hit the range. If your barrel cannot shot the FGMM at an inch or less then you will know if you need either a new scope or a new barrel.

 

[UltraT]

If you have an entry level barrel then what did it cost in the grand scheme of things? $50-$75. If you pop $250 on a name brand barrel and it makes you feel better about shooting the gun - and you're able to afford it - then why not treat yourself? It may be silly but it's your gun, be happy.

Without getting into a debate, look for a 16" mid-gas rather than a carbine as it will be a bit lighter shooting. Or an 18" with rifle length gas, even better but heavier.

As to twist everybody pushes 1:7 but that's if you're shooting hotter 77g rounds. If you shoot cheap 55g stuff like most people then a 1:8 will be preferable.

Don't forget you ideally want a new bolt (not bolt carrier group) to mesh with the new barrel.

And if you truly have an entry level rifle then you're probably also in the market for a free float hand guard and gas block, etc. lots to consider.... may be easier just to buy a complete upper than to swap parts around.

I understand what you're saying, and I don't think it's silly or anything. That said, I want to limit how much money I put into this build because in the future I'll be saving my money for a higher-end AR. That's why I'm thinking mid-level. If I do upgrade the barrel, it will probably be the last thing I change for this rifle (and I might add a nicer stock, we'll see). I already have a nicer free float handguard and I just put a nice trigger in. I'll probably go with a carbine length so I can take advantage of the adjustable gas block I got for free.

I say don't waste your money until you find out how your current barrel shoots. If you are trying to make milsurp ammo shot less than MOA you might have issues. Grab some FGMM Federal Premium Gold Medal Ammo 223 Remington 69 Grain Sierra and a couple of sandbags then hit the range. If your barrel cannot shot the FGMM at an inch or less then you will know if you need either a new scope or a new barrel.

Yes I agree, I just bought a slew of different ammo brands to do a proper test next range trip. If my existing barrel performs better next time I won't upgrade. But I figured it wouldn't be a wasted thread anyways since it may help others in the future, you guys are very knowledgeable .

 

[meketrefe]

IMO stay away from the Black Hole barrels. It is a hit or miss situation. Quality control is not there.
I can show you a couple of examples of Black Hole bad barrels and bores if you want.

If you want a good barrel for the price take a look at the 5R nitrocarburized AR15 performance
barrels and wait for the 5/8 threads to come in stock. Buy one of their bolts that is the strongest in
the market.
5.56/223 Wylde
I suggest never buy a carbine ported or 1/2 threads barrel if you can avoid it.

If you don't want to pay for a Lothar Walter or Krieger, Xcaliber makes a very nice 5R barrel
with wylde and 1:8 twist.
I suggest either a 18" or 20" with rifle porting and mid-socom profile and 5/8 threads.
Or if you want a 16" go with a mid lenght porting minum and 5/8 threads.
If you buy the bolt they will headspace the barrel to match it to it.
This will give you excellent accuracy and $250 or so vs. $450 of another high end match barrel.
Configure Your Custom AR-15 Barrel

There are other good values between $150 to $250.

 

[UltraT]

IMO stay away from the black hole. It is a hit of miss situation. Quality control is not there.
I can show you a couple of examples of Black Hole bad barrels and bores if you want.

If you want a good barrel for the price take a look at the 5R nitrocarburized AR15 performance
barrels and wait for the 5/8 threads to come in stock. Buy one of their bolts that is the strongest in
the market.
5.56/223 Wylde
I suggest never buy a carbine ported or 1/2 threads barrel if you can avoid it.

If you don't want to pay for a Lothar Walter or Krieger, Xcaliber makes a very nice 5R barrel
with wylde and 1:8 twist.
I suggest either a 18" or 20" with rifle porting and mid-socom profile and 5/8 threads.
Or if you want a 16" go with a mid lenght porting minum and 5/8 threads.
If you buy the bolt they will headspace the barrel to match it to it.
This will give you excellent accuracy and $250 or so vs. $450 of another high end match barrel.
Configure Your Custom AR-15 Barrel

There are other good values between $150 to $250.

Thanks for the advice. One question: why does the threading type matter?

 

[meketrefe]

Thanks for the advice. One question: why does the threading type matter?

The standard 1/2" threads minus the depth of the thread leaves little support at the muzzle (wall thickness too thin)
So with these high pressure cartriges eventually the muzzle swells and looses accuracy while the throat and the rifling still
have good accuracy life on it. So other than going with a target/plain un-threaded crown the 5/8 is a good one and standard
for other calibers. If you have a device in 1/2 threads then there are very inexpensive adaptors that add less than one inch
legth and do not screw up wiht your muzzle.
1/2 threads should have never existed other than 22LR and .17 and some .20 calibers.
Same thing with carbine porting and M4 cut style barrels where the tacticool cuts all the they do is reduce the minor diameter of the barrel
for no one single good reason.

 

[meketrefe]

We see this mistake being made all the time. While top accuracy is not a concern for many people I suggest one
makes choices that do not contribute to problems and bring zero benefits. People sell them because there
are people buying them but this doesn't mean one cannot do better, a lot better.
I explained this situation many times.




Here an example of a 6.8 with 1/2 threads!! big mistake.

AR-15 Barrel - M4 / 16" / 6.8 SPC / 1/10" Twist

 

[UltraT]

The standard 1/2" threads minus the depth of the thread leaves little support at the muzzle (wall thickness too thin)
So with these high pressure cartriges eventually the muzzle swells and looses accuracy while the throat and the rifling still
have good accuracy life on it. So other than going with a target/plain un-threaded crown the 5/8 is a good one and standard
for other calibers. If you have a device in 1/2 threads then there are very inexpensive adaptors that add less than one inch
legth and do not screw up wiht your muzzle.
1/2 threads should have never existed other than 22LR and .17 and some .20 calibers.
Same thing with carbine porting and M4 cut style barrels where the tacticool cuts all the they do is reduce the minor diameter of the barrel
for no one single good reason.

I see, I'm surprised I haven't seen this before. I did assume the gov't profile cuts were pointless (the point is to fit a grenade launcher right?), but I didn't know how much they affect things. In your opinion, what are the optimal barrel profiles if you want similar weight to gov't profile?

 

[Eddie Gunks]

There are FAR better barrels than noveske and bcm for the same money.

I have had extremely good luck with black hole weaponry barrels. The accuracy I've gotten from them has been extraordinary.

M4 has the cut out for the grenade launcher.

Good luck

 

[meketrefe]

I see, I'm surprised I haven't seen this before. I did assume the gov't profile cuts were pointless (the point is to fit a grenade launcher right?), but I didn't know how much they affect things. In your opinion, what are the optimal barrel profiles if you want similar weight to gov't profile?

IMO they should have changed the grenade launcher bracket and give the troops better barrels and carbines. but you know how goverment are they think wiht their ass. I think a good profile would be something medium w/o being too thin ahead of the chamber like the M4 style tacticool cuts and no slots.
There might be an exception for a pencil barrel for a ranch rifle but even a pencil does't have to be .625 to be light.

I would say something like ... 1" -> .800 > .750 mid or rifle length can be reasonable weight and more rigidity and less heat.

Look at arperfomance socom profile. Similart to some of the 3 gun rigs. All pretty effective although people try to favor 18" and fluting.

 

[meketrefe]

There are FAR better barrels than noveske and bcm for the same money.

I have had extremely good luck with black hole weaponry barrels. The accuracy I've gotten from them has been extraordinary.

M4 has the cut out for the grenade launcher.

Good luck

I got good barrels from them too. But I also got two with bad chamber, run out problems and a loose extension. I can post the pictures if you want.
I don't think they are bad to start with but I am worried about their mistakes and horrible customer support. I mean they are nice people so if one gets lucky they might serve you fast but also they might forget to follow through. So I prefer to sitck with a bit of consistency and quality control. but one doens't have to spend
an eye like noveke that is for sure.

 

[shootemup]

The standard 1/2" threads minus the depth of the thread leaves little support at the muzzle (wall thickness too thin)
So with these high pressure cartriges eventually the muzzle swells and looses accuracy while the throat and the rifling still
have good accuracy life on it. So other than going with a target/plain un-threaded crown the 5/8 is a good one and standard
for other calibers. If you have a device in 1/2 threads then there are very inexpensive adaptors that add less than one inch
legth and do not screw up wiht your muzzle.
1/2 threads should have never existed other than 22LR and .17 and some .20 calibers.
Same thing with carbine porting and M4 cut style barrels where the tacticool cuts all the they do is reduce the minor diameter of the barrel
for no one single good reason.

Meke......can you suggest some good target crown/unthreaded bbls? I seem to always end up w/ Stag, which I feel is a good bbl and I'm happy with them, but was wondering if there are others to recommend. That said, it is a BITCH IMHO to even FIND a target crown bbl.

 

[Newguyhere]

I have been happy with my Faxon lightweight barrel.

 

[dsdmmat]

Meke......can you suggest some good target crown/unthreaded bbls? I seem to always end up w/ Stag, which I feel is a good bbl and I'm happy with them, but was wondering if there are others to recommend. That said, it is a BITCH IMHO to even FIND a target crown bbl.

GM-M35 19" Stainless 223 WYLDE barrel with Experimental 1:6" twist Limited Quantity

Bullet guy also get crowned barrels in if you ask him.

 

[meketrefe]

Meke......can you suggest some good target crown/unthreaded bbls? I seem to always end up w/ Stag, which I feel is a good bbl and I'm happy with them, but was wondering if there are others to recommend. That said, it is a BITCH IMHO to even FIND a target crown bbl.

I know what you mean, most people manufacture to respond to the tacticool demands.
Are you looking for a bull specifically or threads are ok?
Because you can always go with a decent profile even with 1/2 threads and then before you shoot it or at any time you can have
someone cut the threads off and re-crown it. In this case I suggest a 20" or 18" where you are going to loose a bit under 1".
There are more good barrels than bad ones and given those considerations I mentioned before one can always get one crowned that is going to
be faster and might be cheaper than custom order.
I have to give some brands becuase brands might mean something or nothing. Some barrel might be making OEM barrels for 20 different brands
and they all are the same barrel stock and machines for all brands only the logo changes.
Some people like the fulton armory they tell you the source for their barrels but most don't.
Some brands like Stoner from midway, Palmetto, model1, black rain, and countless other tacticool names do not manufacture anything.
They order in very large batches and they sell them. Sometimes they are great sometimes not so good. They do not QA test everything
they get so it is hard to say.
I try to stick to what I know from reputable sources. It does't mean that I don't try new things once in a while.

 

[shootemup]

I know what you mean, most people manufacture to respond to the tacticool demands.
Are you looking for a bull specifically or threads are ok?
Because you can always go with a decent profile even with 1/2 threads and then before you shoot it or at any time you can have
someone cut the threads off and re-crown it. In this case I suggest a 20" or 18" where you are going to loose a bit under 1".
There are more good barrels than bad ones and given those considerations I mentioned before one can always get one crowned that is going to
be faster and might be cheaper than custom order.
I have to give some brands becuase brands might mean something or nothing. Some barrel might be making OEM barrels for 20 different brands
and they all are the same barrel stock and machines for all brands only the logo changes.
Some people like the fulton armory they tell you the source for their barrels but most don't.
Some brands like Stoner from midway, Palmetto, model1, black rain, and countless other tacticool names do not manufacture anything.
They order in very large batches and they sell them. Sometimes they are great sometimes not so good. They do not QA test everything
they get so it is hard to say.
I try to stick to what I know from reputable sources. It does't mean that I don't try new things once in a while.

I like a ''heavier'' profile....thinner than a bull but thicker than an m4gery syle bbl. I hadn't really thought too much about having a longer bbl cut/crowned.now you've got me thinking....LOL

 

[meketrefe]

I don't know about this one but many of the stoner barrels are cut and chambered by Douglas for Midway..
AR-Stoner Barrel AR-15 223 Remington (Wylde) Medium Contour 1 8 Twist
One could cut the threads from this one later and if something is not good midway puts always the customer first. They have a 20" too if you want to end
up wiht 18 or 19" after recutting the crown.
Again, I don't know these specific ones for the reasons I explained above. Normally one pays more to get a superior product but it doesn't mean a douglas barrel is not good.
They get those deals becasue it is all about machining world, the larger the batch they buy the better the price gets after retooling. And Midway has power to sell whatever they put out there so they buy huge quantities from the AR parts makers.

 

[meketrefe]

Wilson combat has some nice target crown barrels. I think they use shilen match barrels. More moola obviously.
Talk to the Bullet Guy. He is an awesome vendor here and he might set you up straight.

 

[shootemup]

I know what you mean, most people manufacture to respond to the tacticool demands.
Are you looking for a bull specifically or threads are ok?
Because you can always go with a decent profile even with 1/2 threads and then before you shoot it or at any time you can have
someone cut the threads off and re-crown it. In this case I suggest a 20" or 18" where you are going to loose a bit under 1".
There are more good barrels than bad ones and given those considerations I mentioned before one can always get one crowned that is going to
be faster and might be cheaper than custom order.
I have to give some brands becuase brands might mean something or nothing. Some barrel might be making OEM barrels for 20 different brands
and they all are the same barrel stock and machines for all brands only the logo changes.
Some people like the fulton armory they tell you the source for their barrels but most don't.
Some brands like Stoner from midway, Palmetto, model1, black rain, and countless other tacticool names do not manufacture anything.
They order in very large batches and they sell them. Sometimes they are great sometimes not so good. They do not QA test everything
they get so it is hard to say.
I try to stick to what I know from reputable sources. It does't mean that I don't try new things once in a while.

yankee hill has some pretty nice ones................5.56 NATO Barrels - Firearms Accessories | Yankee Hill Machine

what is this melonite qpq? better than chrome lined ?

 

[meketrefe]

Melonite is a nitrocarburization process (melted salt bath) inside and out that is superior to parkerizing and Chrome lined if done right.
The thing is, unlike stainless, you don't want to cut threads off /recrown after the treatment is done.
Also twist shoud be 1:8 minimum so one can use the best bullets the 223 has to offer.

 

[UltraT]

Just to sort of conclude this thread,
I've been getting better groups with my new trigger the last 2 trips, so I think that may have been the main problem. I've been getting closer to about 4 MOA (2 in at 50 yds, w/ some standard ammo, nothing special), but I think the barrel itself can do better than me. I'm thinking it could probably do about 2 MOA or slightly better with more expensive target ammo. Soo....
I'm going to leave the barrel as is since this build isn't a precision one, "combat" accuracy is good enough. I'll get a nice barrel for the next build in the future (maybe I'll do that in a year or so). Thanks to everyone for the advice, I'll use it when I do make my next barrel purchase.

 

[RugerGP]

I have a faxon rifle length 18" 1-8 tiwst 5.56 barrel. It is a good barrel for the price imo.

 

[Acer-m14]

should i stir this up a bit ... ducks ... mud flinging coming my way i know for sure ..

i get tight groups .. it ramps up the fun of shooting and your ability .. but what is your guns goal ?.. in SHTF your shooting at
a 1 foot x 1 foot kill zone .. "measuring my 5'3" frame" ... is a dime size group really needed at 100 yrds ??? or 200 yards .. ??
you going to let me get that close ... ?? ...

so ... if your not shooting in competitions or the Olympics .. why the triple fluted bolt n barrel and all the goodies .. ??

love @meketrefe in depth posts and the details and the science ...

but this Topic is on AR's ... what are they for ??? .... bad guys .. 3 gun ... fun ... hunting ... show off at the range .. ??? ...

and here in NY you only have 7 to 10 shots till reload ... a 3 inch group at 100 yrds is dead after 7 shots ... unless your aiming at the perps foot ..

 

[Acer-m14]

Just to sort of conclude this thread,
I've been getting better groups with my new trigger the last 2 trips, so I think that may have been the main problem. I've been getting closer to about 4 MOA (2 in at 50 yds, w/ some standard ammo, nothing special), but I think the barrel itself can do better than me. I'm thinking it could probably do about 2 MOA or slightly better with more expensive target ammo. Soo....
I'm going to leave the barrel as is since this build isn't a precision one, "combat" accuracy is good enough. I'll get a nice barrel for the next build in the future (maybe I'll do that in a year or so). Thanks to everyone for the advice, I'll use it when I do make my next barrel purchase.

reload your own ... taylor it to that gun as is .. try that and see how it goes ..