PCC Division in IDPA and USPSA

[11inarow]

Will any of you be shooting your Ruger Pistol Caliber Carbine in competition this season? More importantly, will any leagues be welcoming PCC to their shoots? Now that the Ruger is coming out all ready to compete (maybe put a red dot on it), there must be a growing pool of PCC shooters also ready to compete.

 

[hooked]

tagged to learn more also

 

[Edwardteach72]

I mean I dont really see the International Defensive PISTOL Association adding a long gun division any time soon.

Oh and pistol caliber carbines have been around for a good while now, it's not like Ruger came out with some game changer

 

[Eddie Gunks]

All uspsa matches have a pcc class. Been that way for years.

Idk about idpa cause i dont shoot that.

I have been the MD for my club for 5 yeats. I have let shooters use a pcc in our 3 gun events the entire time. Only difference it i let emmuse it in lieu of their pistol, so this way the people with no pistol permits can still participate.

 

[11inarow]

I mean I dont really see the International Defensive PISTOL Association adding a long gun division any time soon.

Yes, I don't either but it currently is a provisional division in IDPA subject to individual league approval at their matches: http://members.idpa.com/Content/Rules/ahnq1ufp.qy2.pdf I have experience with IDPA PCC and it is really amazing to experience.

Oh and pistol caliber carbines have been around for a good while now, it's not like Ruger came out with some game changer

I've got one and it's ready to go out of the box and at a reasonable price point. I have added a red dot and I'm still under $800. The AR versions are going for well over $2,000. It has a 4.5# trigger that can be improved upon, I'm sure. The aftermarket is going to go crazy on this gun just like they did with the 10-22. That to me is a game changer. Oh, I don't have any experience with the other PCC's you speak of; do they take Glock mags right out of the box?

 

[MilesTeg]

I've got one and it's ready to go out of the box and at a reasonable price point. I have added a red dot and I'm still under $800. The AR versions are going for well over $2,000. It has a 4.5# trigger that can be improved upon, I'm sure. The aftermarket is going to go crazy on this gun just like they did with the 10-22. That to me is a game changer. Oh, I don't have any experience with the other PCC's you speak of; do they take Glock mags right out of the box?

I'm pretty sure bullet guy could hook you up with an AR pattern PCC for a fraction of the cost you quoted.

 

[Edwardteach72]

Let's see...

Marlin model 9 camp
Iver Johnson Arms 9mm Carbine
Uzi
Stirling
Thompson
Sten

Just off the top of my head...

Again the ruger pcc is not anything revolutionary

 

[Edwardteach72]

I mean $799 is a bit far off from $2,000

Aero Survival Rifle

 

[11inarow]

Miles, I agree with you...BG will chime in I hope.

But, I already have an AR pattern PCC. It's not as simple as the Ruger, but it runs like a scalded dog and I like to shoot it and I have well over $2,000 in it and would not even be marginally happy with a cheaper gun. However, I like the Ruger PCC better; it's new, simple, cheap, it runs right now with Glock mags, and holds a lot of promise for the future.

And, I like BG's observation that "people with no pistol permits can still participate."

 

[Edwardteach72]

Again companies have been making pcc for decades.

Dont get me wrong im glad you like your new ruger, I don't blame you they look and sound nice, (also a lot like the marlin camp 9) but like you said its your new gun. Competition isn't going to say hey look ruger pc9 let's now make a new game

 

[11inarow]

Let's see...

Marlin model 9 camp
Iver Johnson Arms 9mm Carbine
Uzi
Stirling
Thompson
Sten

Just off the top of my head...

Again the ruger pcc is not anything revolutionary

Ed, you didn't even mention the famed Ruger PC9 of recent history; no longer in production...got a Ruger bias going on there?

 

[Edwardteach72]

Ed, you didn't even mention the famed Ruger PC9 of recent history; no longer in production...got a Ruger bias going on there?

Wait did my post state here is a list of all the pcc ever made? No I just said off the top of my head.

Again this list could be so much longer because there are dozens of pistol caliber carbines made over the last couple of decades.

But hey maybe the Internations defensive PISTOL association will see your little ruger PC9 and say oh boy someone designed something so revolutionary that we should add long guns to our pistol matches

 

[11inarow]

Wait did my post state here is a list of all the pcc ever made? No I just said off the top of my head.

Again this list could be so much longer because there are dozens of pistol caliber carbines made over the last couple of decades.

But hey maybe the Internations defensive PISTOL association will see your little ruger PC9 and say oh boy someone designed something so revolutionary that we should add long guns to our pistol matches

Ed, it's too early in the morning to be hitting on that neat whiskey you like so much; argue with yourself for a while...

 

[Edwardteach72]

Ed, it's too early in the morning to be hitting on that neat whiskey you like so much; argue with yourself for a while...

Hey good rebuttle too your original post asking if the "international defensive PISTOL association will add a carbine division because ruger turned their 10/22 into 9mm and are the only people in history to ever think to make a carbine length gun in 9mm"

 

[Edwardteach72]

Not to mention let's say a league (not idpa because well logic) decided on hey this new concept that ruger invented earlier this year of a carbine shooting a pistol caliber is awesome let's set up a whole division for it...

Well @11inarow guess what you live in I'd say one of 3 maybe 4 states where the pc9 would even be considered for even fun shoots based on the fact that it's a cheap no hassle safe bet so no there is nothing revolutionary about your new 10/22 in 9mm

Oh and aren't you old enough to remember the original Pistol caliber carbines. They came in .357 mag and had lever actions

 

[nortatoga]

I've got one and it's ready to go out of the box and at a reasonable price point. I have added a red dot and I'm still under $800. The AR versions are going for well over $2,000. It has a 4.5# trigger that can be improved upon, I'm sure. The aftermarket is going to go crazy on this gun just like they did with the 10-22. That to me is a game changer. Oh, I don't have any experience with the other PCC's you speak of; do they take Glock mags right out of the box?

Posted this in the other thread, I paid $519.00 for mine.

 

[11inarow]

Nortatoga, good for you. I paid $539 and was extremely happy to find it on the shelf at an Adirondack shop. I had my name on the next one that came in at several LGS for the longest time, but no luck. The place I got it had three come in and two were gone in the first day; I lucked out on the second day. This is my first Ruger rifle or carbine and I think it is extremely well made, and quality piece...the lock-up is solid. They probably learned a lot with the earlier PC9 and it shows in the new PCC. Hope you are enjoying yours!

 

[nortatoga]

I mean I dont really see the International Defensive PISTOL Association adding a long gun division any time soon.

Oh and pistol caliber carbines have been around for a good while now, it's not like Ruger came out with some game changer

Wrong!!

Pistol Caliber Carbine is defined as a specialty division within IDPA. This Appendix governs PCC in IDPA matches and supersedes current rules relating to start condition, position, function and range commands. PCC may be included in IDPA matches at the discretion of a match director who will then, be governed by this set of rules. Match directors may be required to lower the magazine and division capacity to comply with State or local laws. In these cases, the MD is required to publish this announcement ahead of a match. Rifles permitted for use in PCC must: A. Be semi-automatic. B. Use 9 mm, .357 Sig, .40 S&W, 10mm, and .45 ACP pistol caliber cartridges. C. Designed to be fired from the shoulder and have a shoulder stock installed. Note: All references to “firearm” in the current edition of the rule book are deemed to apply to PCC as well, except where PCC is noted in the rules or this appendix. All references to “strong hand” and “weak hand” in the current edition of the rule book apply to PCC as follows: • Strong Hand will require the PCC to be shouldered on the strong hand side, trigger pulled with the strong hand. Both hands may be on the gun. • Weak Hand will require the PCC to be shouldered on the weak side, trigger pulled with the weak hand. Both hands may be on the gun. This applies to the Classifier and all CoFs. The firearm may only work with one trigger pull to fire one round. Variants that allow other firing options may not be used in PCC. Start Condition: Firearms will start hammer or striker cocked and safety engaged; held at the low ready position unless otherwise specified in the written stage description. Start Positions: No starts facing up range. Default position is facing downrange at Low Ready (this is off hand with the muzzle oriented downward at the base of a target or 45 degrees). Finger visibly well outside of the trigger guard. Stage description may also include other variants: • May be loaded or unloaded. • Table starts (same as pistol when possible). • If a prop uses something that PCC will not fit, then lay the rifle on top or nearby the prop as safety permits. • Facing walls or barricades, a mark at 3’ above the ground perpendicular to the prop is used. Safety: Except at the safe area, or when under the supervision and direct command of a SO, shooters must carry their pistol caliber carbine with detachable magazines removed. Competitors must use a chamber safety flag when uncased, or clear chamber device, that is externally visible when transporting from to the range or stage to stage. Un-cased pistol caliber carbines must be carried slung across the shoulder or held in the hands with the firearm vertical. Match Directors may require this to be "vertically upwards" or "vertically downwards" providing this is made clear to all competitors prior to the match. In certain cases, a MD can choose to combine PCC and handgun into a single COF. Additional safety considerations may be included for these stages in order to maintain safe gun handling practices. Use common sense and consider all of the competitors that will be shooting at the event. PCC Permitted Features and Modifications (Inclusive list): A. Sights: Iron, optical, and electronic sights are permitted. B. Lights and Lasers: Permitted and allowed for use. C. Muzzle Devices: Flash hiders, compensators, and muzzle brakes are permitted. D. Action work may be used to enhance trigger pull as long as safety is maintained. E. Reliability work. F. Internal accuracy work. G. Externally visible trigger over travel stops. H. Checkering, serrated, and stippling. I. Extended and/or ambidextrous safety. J. Ambidextrous magazine releases. K. Extended, trimmed, and/or ambidextrous bolt releases. L. Custom finishes and engraving may be applied. M. Aftermarket safeties. N. Aftermarket magazine base pads may be used provided they do not make the magazine weight more than 1.00 oz. over the same capacity factory magazine. O. Magazine base pads may be modified by reshaping, texturing, or adding bumper pads provided that they do not make the magazine weigh more than 1.00 oz. over the same capacity factory magazine. 1.1.1 PCC Excluded Features and Modifications (Non-Inclusive list): A. Removing butt stock B. Firearms not designed for use with a buttstock (for example: AR pistols with Sig Brace or equivalent) C. Monopods, Bipods and Tripods D. Drum, coupled or extended magazines 1.1.2 PCC Power Factor: Minimum power factor for PCC is 135,000. 1.1.3 Classification: Shooters compete using their highest classification achieved in any of the handgun divisions. 2.1.4 Division Capacity: Maximum is 30 rounds. Any magazine restrictions must be published in advance when event is announced

 

[11inarow]

Nort, way to go; can't argue with the rule book! It is very sad that others dislike something without even giving it a chance. But who gives a RA what they like? You and I and many others here like the new Ruger PCC, and so does:

Taran:
and so does Jennifer (whoooohooooo):

 

[11inarow]

Jennifer says: "This is nice." Yes Jennifer, yes it is nice...and it's hot too!!!

 

[nortatoga]

Nort, way to go; can't argue with the rule book! It is very sad that others dislike something without even giving it a chance. But who gives a RA what they like? You and I and many others here like the new Ruger PCC, and so does:

Taran:
and so does Jennifer (whoooohooooo):

Yes and just to add fuel to the fire, I have 3 Mini 14's!!

 

[11inarow]

Nort, you have three Mini 14's? OMG, that's even hotter than, than, than....Jennifer!!!

 

[Edwardteach72]

Who said I didn't like pcc or idpa or the idea of idpa?

But hey thank god that now that Ruger invented the idea of a carbine that shoots a pistol caliber IDPA will start adding that to matches

 

[Edwardteach72]

I mean fuck. Reading comprehension must not have been taught back in the one room classrooms, I even clearly said I thought the pc9 was a nice gun, just not anything new and companies have been doing this for decades

 

[Edwardteach72]

Wrong!!

Pistol Caliber Carbine is defined as a specialty division within IDPA. This Appendix governs PCC in IDPA matches and supersedes current rules relating to start condition, position, function and range commands. PCC may be included in IDPA matches at the discretion of a match director who will then, be governed by this set of rules. Match directors may be required to lower the magazine and division capacity to comply with State or local laws. In these cases, the MD is required to publish this announcement ahead of a match. Rifles permitted for use in PCC must: A. Be semi-automatic. B. Use 9 mm, .357 Sig, .40 S&W, 10mm, and .45 ACP pistol caliber cartridges. C. Designed to be fired from the shoulder and have a shoulder stock installed. Note: All references to “firearm” in the current edition of the rule book are deemed to apply to PCC as well, except where PCC is noted in the rules or this appendix. All references to “strong hand” and “weak hand” in the current edition of the rule book apply to PCC as follows: • Strong Hand will require the PCC to be shouldered on the strong hand side, trigger pulled with the strong hand. Both hands may be on the gun. • Weak Hand will require the PCC to be shouldered on the weak side, trigger pulled with the weak hand. Both hands may be on the gun. This applies to the Classifier and all CoFs. The firearm may only work with one trigger pull to fire one round. Variants that allow other firing options may not be used in PCC. Start Condition: Firearms will start hammer or striker cocked and safety engaged; held at the low ready position unless otherwise specified in the written stage description. Start Positions: No starts facing up range. Default position is facing downrange at Low Ready (this is off hand with the muzzle oriented downward at the base of a target or 45 degrees). Finger visibly well outside of the trigger guard. Stage description may also include other variants: • May be loaded or unloaded. • Table starts (same as pistol when possible). • If a prop uses something that PCC will not fit, then lay the rifle on top or nearby the prop as safety permits. • Facing walls or barricades, a mark at 3’ above the ground perpendicular to the prop is used. Safety: Except at the safe area, or when under the supervision and direct command of a SO, shooters must carry their pistol caliber carbine with detachable magazines removed. Competitors must use a chamber safety flag when uncased, or clear chamber device, that is externally visible when transporting from to the range or stage to stage. Un-cased pistol caliber carbines must be carried slung across the shoulder or held in the hands with the firearm vertical. Match Directors may require this to be "vertically upwards" or "vertically downwards" providing this is made clear to all competitors prior to the match. In certain cases, a MD can choose to combine PCC and handgun into a single COF. Additional safety considerations may be included for these stages in order to maintain safe gun handling practices. Use common sense and consider all of the competitors that will be shooting at the event. PCC Permitted Features and Modifications (Inclusive list): A. Sights: Iron, optical, and electronic sights are permitted. B. Lights and Lasers: Permitted and allowed for use. C. Muzzle Devices: Flash hiders, compensators, and muzzle brakes are permitted. D. Action work may be used to enhance trigger pull as long as safety is maintained. E. Reliability work. F. Internal accuracy work. G. Externally visible trigger over travel stops. H. Checkering, serrated, and stippling. I. Extended and/or ambidextrous safety. J. Ambidextrous magazine releases. K. Extended, trimmed, and/or ambidextrous bolt releases. L. Custom finishes and engraving may be applied. M. Aftermarket safeties. N. Aftermarket magazine base pads may be used provided they do not make the magazine weight more than 1.00 oz. over the same capacity factory magazine. O. Magazine base pads may be modified by reshaping, texturing, or adding bumper pads provided that they do not make the magazine weigh more than 1.00 oz. over the same capacity factory magazine. 1.1.1 PCC Excluded Features and Modifications (Non-Inclusive list): A. Removing butt stock B. Firearms not designed for use with a buttstock (for example: AR pistols with Sig Brace or equivalent) C. Monopods, Bipods and Tripods D. Drum, coupled or extended magazines 1.1.2 PCC Power Factor: Minimum power factor for PCC is 135,000. 1.1.3 Classification: Shooters compete using their highest classification achieved in any of the handgun divisions. 2.1.4 Division Capacity: Maximum is 30 rounds. Any magazine restrictions must be published in advance when event is announced

Wait wait wait.


So IDPA has been doing a PCC matchh prior to Ruger magically inventing the concept of a carbine in a pistol caliber?

 

[nortatoga]

Wait wait wait.


So IDPA has been doing a PCC matchh prior to Ruger magically inventing the concept of a carbine in a pistol caliber?

It would appear that this class was started in 2017! So the OP left out mentioning any of the other PCC's that you listed!

Have there been any other threads about any of the PCC's you listed? I don't think so! (But I could be wrong) But a lot of forum members have been talking about wanting to get this new Ruger PC9!

Not everyone is into the AR platform, Some do like the Mini 14's! Something about flying under the radar so to speak!

My Club has a very large IDPA program, I'll try and keep tabs on which PCC's seem to be the most popular!

 

[11inarow]

Nort, your efforts are sincerely appreciated, but might be a waste of time...Old Ed just wants to fight.

I just went back and read the first sentence of my original post:

"Will any of you be shooting your Ruger Pistol Caliber Carbine in competition this season?"
That seems to be a straight forward and honest question for anyone who has one or is interested in having one, and also enjoys using firearms in competitive venues.

I also re-read Ed's many contributions to this thread and detect a seething hatred for Ruger specifically, and possibly for the competitive sports as well. I don't find an underlying motivation though, other than he's butt-hurt because I didn't mention his favorite PCC and he just likes crapping all over someone else's thread with mindless random thoughts fostered in a stupified condition.

So Ed, why don't you start your own thread? You can title it: "Old Ed's Tipsy Teachings on the PCC's of Yesteryear." In it you can extoll the virtues of outmoded firearms, whisky and well...just how much more wisdom is possessed by old people who post grossly uninformed and unintelligible remarks in other peoples well-meaning threads.

If that's not enough for you Ed, well crawl back into the bottle and "BITE ME."

 

[Eddie Gunks]

get em ed!

 

[Edwardteach72]

seething hatred? sorry you are stuck with a ruger PC9 because your old ass lives in new york and cant get your hands on actual nice PCC. and yea i kinda do hate Ruger based on their prior anti 2A business tactics, but thanks to the passing of Bill Ruger himself the company has been trying to change their image. and again i stated the PC9 looks and seems like a decent gun,

so let me start this again. Ruger has not done anything revolutionary with the introduction of the Marlin Camp 9... er sorry i mean the Ruger PC9, but dont act like this stupid little budget gun is taking the competition world by storm. you live in one of like 3 fucking states that this gun will be any real use in any PCC competitions while the rest of the states will be running shit like the Sig MPX, CZ Scorpion, Any number of different AR platforms, or any of the other dozens of Pistol Caliber Carbines that have been out for years prior to Ruger

 

[Marine Cpl]

@11inarow , I've read this thread twice now. Edward wasn't being a dick in any way. It seems like you took offense to him saying that the Ruger didn't innovate anything. For some reason that rubbed you the wrong way, you took it personal, and are inventing things he didn't say.

More than once Edward has said that it's a fine carbine given what it is. You ignore that and are pulling things out of thin air that he didn't say.

What he said it's correct. There Ruger PC9 isn't innovative since it's been done before in it's current configurations similarly and these organizations aren't going to be foaming at the mouth to create spots for it in competition. There are much better options out there for the rest of the country with better ergonomics. (Adjustable stocks, folding stocks, thinner and lighter rails for accessories, ect.) Also, you can get barrels in different twist rates, (I got mine in 1x16) different lengthed barrels like a 10.5 inch with flash cans permanently affixed to keep them the same length if not shorter than the Ruger. You can change things mechanically like the buffer spring and buffer to tune it to your purpose as well. You can't do those things with the Ruger.

The Ruger is fine but it really isn't customizable. The only people foaming at the mouth for the Ruger are people in ban states and simple people in free states who prefer the traditional look and are fine with the length, cheekweld, twist rate, and lack of other customizable features.

Again no one is knocking the Ruger. It just isn't a game changer.