Permit required for black powder pistol

[cgrutt]

So I was in a training course today and black powder came up. Both trainers insisted a NYS pistol permit is required to SHOOT a black powder pistol. Not to BUY it, only to SHOOT it. I don't recall ever seeing anything in PL law about this. Anybody?

 

[Pissed Off Patriot]

This is mostly correct. A black powder pistol is not considered a firearm as long as you do not possess all the necessary components to fire it.

I own a black powder revolver, but I do not possess a CC permit, nor do I need one since I do not possess black powder, bullets, AND percussion caps.

 

[cgrutt]

Where is that spelled out in the law? Not doubting you just don't recall ever seeing it. So if you need a NYS pistol permit how do they put a black powder pistol on it? You don't need permit to buy/transfer it. Not sure if it has a serial number, so how do they put it on your permit?

 

[GOPerfect]

We used to sell them at Gander ALL the time without a permit. Gander would not have done this if not allowed by law.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Now the question is where does it say unless you have the components to fire it?

 

[cgrutt]

We used to sell them at Gander ALL the time without a permit. Gander would not have done this if not allowed by law.

They weren't saying you couldn't BUY one without a permit. They were saying you couldn't SHOOT one. It came up in context of not being able to teach black powder in NY because people needed a permit to shoot pistol even though they could buy one without it.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Here is the definition of firearm taken from Penal Law 265. It isn't a firearm. We can all agree on that.

3. "Firearm" means (a) any pistol or revolver; or (b) a shotgun having one or more barrels less than eighteen inches in length; or (c) a rifle having one or more barrels less than sixteen inches in length; or (d) any weapon made from a shotgun or rifle whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise if such weapon as altered, modified, or otherwise has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches; or (e) an assault weapon. For the purpose of this subdivision the length of the barrel on a shotgun or rifle shall be determined by measuring the distance between the muzzle and the face of the bolt, breach, or breech lock when closed and when the shotgun or rifle is cocked; the overall length of a weapon made from a shotgun or rifle is the distance between the extreme ends of the weapon measured along a line parallel to the center line of the bore. Firearm does not include an antique firearm.

 

[cgrutt]

So is a Brand new just manufactured black powder pistol kit an antique because of action? I hate NY gun laws... no joke.

 

[Pissed Off Patriot]

They weren't saying you couldn't BUY one without a permit. They were saying you couldn't SHOOT one. It came up in context of not being able to teach black powder in NY because people needed a permit to shoot pistol even though they could buy one without it.

They skipped over the possession of the components part, and went right to firing it, basically. So even if you possess all the components but don't intend to load or fire the BP pistol, you still need to have it on your permit by law.

 

[GOPerfect]

They weren't saying you couldn't BUY one without a permit. They were saying you couldn't SHOOT one. It came up in context of not being able to teach black powder in NY because people needed a permit to shoot pistol even though they could buy one without it.

Thanks C, just reread the OP. Sometimes that reading thing gets in the way.

 

[Marine Cpl]

So is a Brand new just manufactured black powder pistol kit an antique because of action? I hate NY gun laws... no joke.

I would say yes.

* 14. "Antique firearm" means:
Any unloaded muzzle loading pistol or revolver with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system, or a pistol or revolver which uses fixed cartridges which are no longer available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.

 

[cgrutt]

They skipped over the possession of the components part, and went right to firing it, basically. So even if you possess all the components but don't intend to load or fire the BP pistol, you still need to have it on your permit by law.

Can you point me to the PL citation?

 

[GOPerfect]

14. “Antique firearm” means:
Any unloaded muzzle loading pistol or revolver with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system, or a pistol or revolver which uses fixed cartridges which are no longer available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.

 

[GOPerfect]

This is one of the reasons so many get jammed up in NY; simple question. Nearly impossible to come up with a direct answer. Look at this law then back to that law....

 

[Pissed Off Patriot]

So is a Brand new just manufactured black powder pistol kit an antique because of action? I hate NY gun laws... no joke.

The theory behind it is that antique firearms require components that are not readily available, and so do not legally become firearms until you posses those components.

Edit: What GOPerfect said above.

 

[cgrutt]

OK, so if muzzle loading is antique and therefore exempt by definition, where does it say I need a pistol permit to fire one? And even if I did need a permit, how are they supposed to add it without a serial number?

 

[cgrutt]

The theory behind it is that antique firearms require components that are not readily available, and so do not legally become firearms until you posses those components.

Edit: What GOPerfect said above.

OK, but are we talking theory or actual law? Where is the citation? Serious question.

 

[GOYABEAN]

Join the club

So is a Brand new just manufactured black powder pistol kit an antique because of action? I hate NY gun laws... no joke.

. if it goes Boom it's bad

 

[Pissed Off Patriot]

OK, so if muzzle loading is antique and therefore exempt by definition, where does it say I need a pistol permit to fire one? And even if I did need a permit, how are they supposed to add it without a serial number?

Any reproduction (ie. new) black powder revolver is going to have a serial number. Even my 1860 Colt Army revolver has a serial number.

 

[cgrutt]

Any reproduction (ie. new) black powder revolver is going to have a serial number. Even my 1860 Colt Army revolver has a serial number.

Yeah, but is it on your permit? Rhetorical question.

 

[Pissed Off Patriot]

Yeah, but is it on your permit? Rhetorical question.

I don't have a pistol permit, and I don't need one for my 1860 Colt because per NY law, it is an antique.

OK, but are we talking theory or actual law? Where is the citation? Serious question.

See sections 3 and 14:
New York Penal Law - PEN § 265.00 | FindLaw

 

[Marine Cpl]

So under Penal Law 265 under definitions it says that an Antique Firearm is not considered a Firearm. Check. We can agree on that. Then it gives the definition of Antique Firearm. I think we missed the word unloaded. If it is loaded, it no longer is an Antique Firearm.

14. “Antique firearm” means:
Any unloaded muzzle loading pistol or revolver with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system, or a pistol or revolver which uses fixed cartridges which are no longer available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.

@Pissed Off Patriot is correct and I once again have changed my position.

 

[cgrutt]

I don't have a pistol permit, and I don't need one for my 1860 Colt because per NY law, it is an antique.



See sections 3 and 14:
New York Penal Law - PEN § 265.00 | FindLaw

OK, so Sec. 14 "Unloaded" got it. Thanks. Stupid f'n law, LOL...

 

[cgrutt]

Better make sure you shoot it, LOL, you know, so it's "unloaded", LMFAO.

 

[Marine Cpl]

OK, so Sec. 14 "Unloaded" got it. Thanks. Stupid f'n law, LOL...

Yes I totally missed it as well.

So you can have the components but you just cant load them?

 

[Pissed Off Patriot]

Better make sure you shoot it, LOL, you know, so it's "unloaded", LMFAO.

As a NYS Trooper once told me, murdering someone with a black powder firearm at a Civil War re-enactment would be the perfect crime, as everyone is shooting blanks. There would be no ballistics to show who that one person was that loaded a bullet in their revolver.

 

[Pissed Off Patriot]

Yes I totally missed it as well.

So you can have the components but you just cant load them?

Notice that I make a distinction between "loaded" as it is stated in the law, and "possessing" the components. I do not wish to fight a stupid and expensive court battle over intent to fire a black powder pistol. Ridiculous? Probably. But since I don't intend to fire it anyway, why possess the components in the first place?

 

[Marine Cpl]

Notice that I make a distinction between "loaded" as it is stated in the law, and "possessing" the components. I do not wish to fight a stupid and expensive court battle over intent to fire a black powder pistol. Ridiculous? Probably. But since I don't intend to fire it anyway, why possess the components in the first place?

Posess them for a rainy day in PA where you can fire them.

 

[Pissed Off Patriot]

Possess them for a rainy day in PA where you can fire then.

My "antique" is truly an antique, and is not currently in firing condition. All my nipples are crusted up. I'd have to buy a nipple wrench. I'd have to buy some new nipples. Then I'd have to install them.

I think I'll just leave my Colt in it's shadow box.

 

[Pissed Off Patriot]

Also, what is the definition of "loaded"?

I don't know but is it anything like the definition of driving while intoxicated? The engine might be off, the keys on the seat, and you are drunk as a skunk just listening to the radio, but you can kiss your ass goodbye for "driving" while intoxicated if a cop finds you.