Scope Ring (Complete Failure)

[Carlos Hathcock]

Looking for some input for those in the know. Not sure if this is a product failure or operator ignorance.

Shot my .338 Lapua at 250 yard league tonight. After a couple sighters, I though it was all dialed in. Then things started to get wonky. End of the match I started looking for root causes and noticed the screws on the back set of rings were loose. Vortex low height rings. When I got back to the bench, it was a little more involved than loose screws. Obviously they failed at the thinnest point of the material.

Question is this. I've never had a set of Vortex rings fail like this. I've also never put them on such a big caliber as this. Does anyone speculate this failure is due to the rings or being used on a larger caliber rifle? I;m sure Vortex would replace them but if it's going to happen again due to the stress then I'll look into some beefier setups.

 

[Deplorable Me]

My guess is aluminum extrusion?

I try to go steel. Could be a bad batch of alloy.

You shoot at a horsepower class above me.

 

[Mosinitis]

Flimsy rings, powerful caliber.

 

[Saltwater60]

Might be stupid but I’d call vortex and ask them. It should say if they don’t handle a certain caliber rifle on the package but your speculation sounds reasonable. Most people don’t have or shoot a .338. If these rings can’t handle that caliber rifle hopefully they have a set that will and will help you out to obtain the proper rings by applying the purchase price of these to the new rings you need.
I have these rings on my 6.8spc and no issues. I know it’s comparing apples to oranges but I’ve been happy with them.

 

[Acer-m14]

just thinking .. with it breaking like that .. could the size of the rings be off a tad per the scope tube dia .. proper torq and to small gave it a stress and it cracked ..

 

[kev74]

Looks like the rings couldn't handle the load.

As said above, probably best to use steel rings for .338.

 

[meketrefe]

Poor design. Never use aluminum rails or rings even for smaller calibers.
Always stacked, bedded and lapped.
They do not have to be badger that are very good but they need to be true and of a decent quality.

Here some TPS unless you want to bite the bullet and go for the badger.
Their steel rails are also pretty decent. I have all actions with steel rails and rings and all bedded and stacked for any caliber.
Obviously if you have an integral rail (like the surgeon action for example) then you don't have to worry
about that.

 

[cgrutt]

Agree with Mek but could just be karma lol...

 

[Tisto]

I can't say that I've had a failure quite like that, but the one set of Vortex rings I did have, I quickly replaced. While lapping them, I noticed that they were egg shaped. Add to that the threads on some of the rings were terrible. I wound up ordering a set of Warne rings and going that route instead.

Call Vortex if you want to, I'm sure they will send you another set. I'm just not sure I would want to try them again, especially on a rifle with substantial recoil. I really don't think Vortex makes their own rings. I think they buy cheap Chinese ones and put their name on them.

 

[Carlos Hathcock]

Agree with Mek but could just be karma lol...

Why don't you go bite the big one toolbag.

 

[MillidotShooter]

just thinking .. with it breaking like that .. could the size of the rings be off a tad per the scope tube dia .. proper torq and to small gave it a stress and it cracked ..

I have never personally had this issue, but I did see it happen before at the range. Did you lap the rings before setting the scope? I have found that EVERY set of rings I have ever used need lapping at the very least. A 64th of an inch may not seem like a lot, but it's enough to stress aluminum. Seems like the tube diameter vs ring diameter might have lead to overstressing the ring. As Meke stated, you also might try steel rings for such a hot load... I use Steel on my .308 and 30-30... Aluminum on my .223 and 6.5 Grendel... But either way, I lap them for the best fit... Just my preference

 

[Carlos Hathcock]

I have never personally had this issue, but I did see it happen before at the range. Did you lap the rings before setting the scope? I have found that EVERY set of rings I have ever used need lapping at the very least. A 64th of an inch may not seem like a lot, but it's enough to stress aluminum. Seems like the tube diameter vs ring diameter might have lead to overstressing the ring. As Meke stated, you also might try steel rings for such a hot load... I use Steel on my .308 and 30-30... Aluminum on my .223 and 6.5 Grendel... But either way, I lap them for the best fit... Just my preference

I've never lapped any rings, don't know if I can put any stock in the concept, and don't know to what degree it would affect accuracy enough for it to matter.

No matter what, I see steel and better quality in my future. Maybe I got a bad ring. Suppose it's possible. Thanks for the input.

 

[MillidotShooter]

I've never lapped any rings, don't know if I can put any stock in the concept, and don't know to what degree it would affect accuracy enough for it to matter.

No matter what, I see steel and better quality in my future. Maybe I got a bad ring. Suppose it's possible. Thanks for the input.

I find it just helps with inconsistency in alignment and fit since no set of rings are perfectly aligned... Opinions vary on the subject, but I have found it prevents minor issues in manufacturing tolerances and keep the rings from over compressing or tweaking the tube and damaging the scope. Just my opinion. I do it on all my rings.

 

[meketrefe]

I've never lapped any rings, don't know if I can put any stock in the concept, and don't know to what degree it would affect accuracy enough for it to matter.

No matter what, I see steel and better quality in my future. Maybe I got a bad ring. Suppose it's possible. Thanks for the input.

if you buy quality steel rails and rings they will be true and no lapping needed. I would be more worried about them being of aluminum or not properly bedded and stacked.
you do this once for the life of the rifle and when using quality components you can swap scope / mount groups and put it back and return to zero.
that is how high end long range / military sniper rifles are setup.
badger ordimance steel rails and rings is a favorite but there are other good ones less costly.
vortex do not make rings. same as weaver, burris, nikon and others.
they buy from OEM makers and some are ok amd some are the same as the ebay special but with their logo on.
seekings at the other hand they mill their stuff.
years ago we tested all sort of systems only to come back to the basics.
lots of expensive and fancy stuff out there.
again, stick to steel and proven recipes and parts.

leave experimentation to others.
tps hold up as well as badger.

 

[Carlos Hathcock]

if you buy quality steel rails and rings they will be true and no lapping needed. I would be more worried about them being of aluminum or not properly bedded and stacked.
you do this once for the life of the rifle and when using quality components you can swap scope / mount groups and put it back and return to zero.
that is how high end long range / military sniper rifles are setup.
badger ordimance steel rails and rings is a favorite but there are other good ones less costly.
vortex do not make rings. same as weaver, burris, nikon and others.
they buy from OEM makers and some are ok amd some are the same as the ebay special but with their logo on.
seekings at the other hand they mill their stuff.
years ago we tested all sort of systems only to come back to the basics.
lots of expensive and fancy stuff out there.
again, stick to steel and proven recipes and parts.

leave experimentation to others.
tps hold up as well as badger.

Thanks for all the input. I will be shortly investigating many of the brands mentioned here, and elsewhere. I don't really have much doubt now that the rings were potentially "good enough" for other calibers but obviously not this one. Lesson learned and learned some others as well. Will update when info becomes available.

 

[1075tech]

Thanks for all the input. I will be shortly investigating many of the brands mentioned here, and elsewhere. I don't really have much doubt now that the rings were potentially "good enough" for other calibers but obviously not this one. Lesson learned and learned some others as well. Will update when info becomes available.

Regardless of what you end up getting, I'd still contact Vortex. They'll warrantee them. You'll either get your money back or new rings you can sell or put on something else

 

[Vapor]

I have several sets of steel tps rings and rails, as well as Warne. Neither have ever failed me once.

 

[Carlos Hathcock]

Final choice.

 

[meketrefe]

Thanks for all the input. I will be shortly investigating many of the brands mentioned here, and elsewhere. I don't really have much doubt now that the rings were potentially "good enough" for other calibers but obviously not this one. Lesson learned and learned some others as well. Will update when info becomes available.

I saw a few complains about vortex rings so you are not the first. Again they do not make them, but merely put a logo on a oem one like many others do. Also do not blame it on the caliber. A rifle has to be able to withstand some pounding from recoil the same as a reasonable drop
over the stock and should not loose zero or anything break other than a few scuffs.
So follow this directive and stick to steel rails and rings, bed the rails and stack the whole thing. It is something that adds value for the rifle and
it serves the rifle for live no matter what re-barreling/calibers later on.
Some rails come with extra screws to tap the action but do not buy the expensive kits. All you need you can find at ace including larger hardened
torx screws but most times come with the rails.
We are suggesting this after putting actions in the machine many times and running the dials up and down and doing some tests.
We even posted a thread in the old forum how we measured all the axis putting torque (pressure) on the action and w/o it and found how the whole thing moves and also the best method/s after many builds, trials and tribulations.
We put this in pics in the old forum but since photofucket decided to start charging not sure where the pics are anymore.
If I find them I will post them.

 

[meketrefe]

View attachment 86407
View attachment 86408

Final choice.

Cry once. Make sure to get the steel ones not the T6 ones.
There is a reason why military rifles are setup steel against steel both rails and rings.
The nice thing is you arelady have the scope that is the most important thing before one gets the rings so you have the height and other
critical measures to get you close to the bore and make sure all clears fine and everything is to fit you.

What rails do you have?

 

[Carlos Hathcock]

Cry once. Make sure to get the steel ones not the T6 ones.
There is a reason why military rifles are setup steel against steel both rails and rings.
The nice thing is you arelady have the scope that is the most important thing before one gets the rings so you have the height and other
critical measures to get you close to the bore and make sure all clears fine and everything is to fit you.

What rails do you have?

View attachment 86428

These are the ones I got. They are listed as steel. Not sure of the difference in the ones you show.



At this point the rail is the stock rail that Savage installed....for now.

 

[meketrefe]

These are the ones I got. They are listed as steel. Not sure of the difference in the ones you show.

At this point the rail is the stock rail that Savage installed....for now.

Those will work like a charm. Even a bit extra weight is a welcome addition to a supermagnum.
Savage are not bad rails but they are the factory "budget" option. At least take it out and bed it and stack it. you can use a minute amount
of jbweld to build up the bedding and stack it properly. If you use a dowel for extra support the most important thing is that it is wide and
it doesnt have to be deep, it can be shallow but well stacked.
That is going to be your weakest link. It doesn't mean it is not going to work but it is the most likely suspect if you cannot hold zero over time.
Personally I like to do all the work once and be done. After all, this goes with the rifle for life.
Most people keep their savages, winchester, R700, mausers because they are such popular, strong and versatile actions.
Even if you sell it keep some pics of the parts and work and it will add value to the rifle so a couple of extra 200-300 will there with its final value.

 

[Carlos Hathcock]

Those will work like a charm. Even a bit extra weight is a welcome addition to a supermagnum.
Savage are not bad rails but they are the factory "budget" option. At least take it out and bed it and stack it. you can use a minute amount
of jbweld to build up the bedding and stack it properly. If you use a dowel for extra support the most important thing is that it is wide and
it doesnt have to be deep, it can be shallow but well stacked.
That is going to be your weakest link. It doesn't mean it is not going to work but it is the most likely suspect if you cannot hold zero over time.
Personally I like to do all the work once and be done. After all, this goes with the rifle for life.
Most people keep their savages, winchester, R700, mausers because they are such popular, strong and versatile actions.
Even if you sell it keep some pics of the parts and work and it will add value to the rifle so a couple of extra 200-300 will there with its final value.

Thanks for the heads up on this. Not something I've been paying much attention to previously. I've researched the "bedding" process but not entirely sure about the stacking and doweling verbiage. After seeing the bedding process I can understand why this would be so important. Wonder how many people actually do it.

Hope to have time to zero it before I head to Ridgway this coming weekend. Thanks for all the help.

 

[Vapor]

It used to be that the savage stock rails were egw. Maybe I'm wrong, or it was just certain models. They are most likely aluminum. I would replace it with Tps, warne, or I suppose badger steel.

 

[meketrefe]

Warne, like vortex, nikon, etc.. are cut OEM too and on the average bunch.
But Even expensive rings mounts like seekings, valdada, etc.. are sometimes expensive and even worse.
Not all models but the design is bad from inception like made of aluminum or with long cantilevers on the mount.
So if they are bad already on paper (by design) better avoid them.

@Carlos Hathcock
The bedding is needed in order to stop flex of the actual rail due to the difference in tolerances.
No matter how close they are there always will be a difference a variance when matching a curved profile since there is no way to create a constant contact or mechanical lock.
Stacking (or slotting) a way to create a locking of the rail into the action. Many will have a lip at the front of the action slot and in order to act
as a stop to relieve the screws but this slot is many times not enough or not even properly positioned against the action so when measuring the
impact under load we call it Stacking tolerances (thus the term stacking) or slotting.
There is just no way for those small screws to keep these bases rigidly fixed to the receiver under the loading a rifle is submitted to when firing and no matter how tight one gets them also at the risk of running the threads. This is evident when one understands that the axial load on the scope is about 500 to 700 pounds on a 270 sporter rifle when firing so imagine a 338 or 375.
With heat, aluminum expands at different rate than steel and also gives faster with stress so many bases don't stay put, and you can prove this with some machines and simple tests.
Two popular methods to deal with stacking tolerances on the rail are
A) Make sure you have a bottom notch and work in this bottom notch to make sure is a part of the bedding for positive lock.
B) others drill one or two holes for hardened steel dowels (or short stubby pins) that are centered and slightly received in the drilled or milled notch action. Some makers provide rails with these already machined and a small shallow slot in the action. (Sako and tika, smart)
The main goal is to take the load off the screws and have a very robust system that is not going to quit on you at the worse possible time.

Of all the proprietary systems w/o being integral, my favorite is the one from the American Rifle company.

Everything about this action is amazing, one gets the strength of a R700 blueprint and the amazing extraction of a Mauser.

 

[meketrefe]

btw ... since the lm is a large shank in a LRP action (side slot) is a lot more rigid so stacking tolerances from receiver ring and action
flex are pretty good already.
Interestingly this is the same reason the entry level axis is so strong and accurate because it is machined from a single bar stock with minim cuts.
This is an area where the Howa, Mossberg, and many mausers (older models) fail.