Set me straight on scope sighting

[Cleck]

Since I'm new at this, bear with me. I've been doing searches online, trying to read up on stuff but I don't get it, I think. Speak scope to me, lol.

First one question, then some examples to explain me better.

1) When you're sighting a scope in, do you do it at the smallest power, or the largest? I don't even know what I think, but I'd like to hear what you actually think (or know) and why.

The other questions will go off the idea that I plan on getting a Nikon Buckmasters 4-12x40 with the BDC reticle.

Nikon has some software to help with ballistics, where you put your scope, bullet/load, wind/atmospheric conditions, and it generates values for each BDC at different magnifications based on your zero and the target. Even tells you where to aim.

My question, how does it work? Am I zeroed on 4x or 12x? I'd like to say 12x because I can see the target clearer at 100/200 yards, but at the same time, zero on 4x so that you can fine tune it at 12x. I don't know about you, but my eyes suck, so at 4x at 100, that target is not going to be very clear, so there's a good chance I'll miss.

If I zero at 4x or 12x, that zero should stay no matter what the magnification, which is why they call it zero, correct?

If you look at the expanded BDC info, if gives higher values at lower magnification. At 12x, the first BDC is at 199 yards, but at 4x, that BDC increases to 336 yards. All I know is that each BDC isn't so much a yardage as it is a MOA for each one. Is that why the yardage changes so much based on the magnification, because the magnification is either crisp (12x), and can accurately match/report the bullet drop, and it gets fuzzier as you back out?

A few pics for reference:

My only guess with the lower power/higher BDC values is because the picture/scene is so much bigger, you can see more. At 12x, you're not seeing much more than the target, so that's why it's more specific and not as high. At 4x I'm also wondering how can you see a target 850 yards away using the lowest BDC on the scope. Yes, I know people shoot iron sights at 500-1000 yards, but I can't see shit, lol.

As you can see, I have a lot of questions and other searches didn't really answer them. Hope these are easy for you guys to understand and explain. I plan on doing some more reading, as I hate not knowing/understanding stuff.

 

[capitalcrew]

Sighting in you should only be at 25 yards to start. You will be shooting high at 25 by an inch or two depending on the ballistics of the round. Should be zerod at 100. The magnification has no effect on your zero. 100 yards at 4x and 100 yards at 12x are the same spot. That only comes into play when you're using the BDC, which as far as I'm concerned, is a gimmick. I have one and never use it.

 

[Cleck]

Do you not use it because you're good at figuring out your own or because you think it doesn't work?

So sighting in is just a matter of what's comfortable - doesn't matter if it's 4x, 6x, 16x, etc. As long as the scope isn't giving the mirage effect with the reticle/target.

Yeah, I'll definitely be getting on paper at 25, as I spoke about in my other thread, I guess this is more about me fine tuning once I do get it close.

 

[capitalcrew]

Nah it doesn't matter what magnification you sight in at. If you're shooting from a solid base or one of those fancy holders you might as well be at full zoom to get it as fine as possible. As long as the magnification isn't messing with your head with your crosshairs moving too much you're good.

I don't use it because I have a decent idea of the ballistics of the round I am shooting, and if you're shooting a known distance for targets then you'll do fine just aiming that far above your target. If you're hunting you probably won't be shooting out passed whatever the rounds shoots flat, and if you do it won't be by much.

 

[Cleck]

That makes sense. So maybe we could say the BDC/Spot On is good for those who are new to ballistics/scopes or just aren't that good with it. Once you get comfortable with it, you can probably move on from it.

 

[capitalcrew]

Probably. The scope also has the adjustment on it and if it has the caps you can pull up and set to zero then the bdc becomes even less useful. They're neat, don't get me wrong, I thought I would use it, but I just haven't found a reason to personally.

MUZZLE | 100 | 200 | 300 | 400 | 500
-2.40 | 2.20 | 0.00 |-10.50 | -31.10 |-64.00

That is the ballistics for the round I am shooting from the gun with that scope. I'm sighted in for 100. At 200 I'm -2.2 which is simple to compensate for, and at 300 I'm -12.5 which is also pretty easy to see. I'm not shooting past 300. If I was then maybe it would be handy but that's just not practical.

 

[Robin]

I had to stop at "Nikon Buckmasters 4-12x40 with the BDC reticle". Nikon makes excellent scopes and the Buckmaster use to be one of them till they went with that BDC reticle. I have an older one with the nice fine crosshair intersection and wanted to get another for my son, but Nooooooo they clouded it up with that BDC mumbo jumbo! He is sniper trained and will have none of it and neither will I.
Rant, over. Good luck in your search Click!!!!
Robin

 

[JamieZ]

I use the BDC reticle or have used it. I carry a rangefinder while I'm out hunting those nasty varmints we call woodchucks. The BDC reticle works for me the majority of the times I've used it. Do I know much about ballistics, no. I know the basic shit, I guess. I think I know how fast my factory made bullet is coming out of my gun per length of barrel and how much velocity speed should be taken off the factory round. Such as 204 specs. I use Hornady 32gr vmax factory loads that have a velocity of 4225 ft per second. I deduct 30ft per second per inch of negative barrel length for my application. My barrel is 20 inches and I assume that they are using a 24 inch barrel.

So when I use that Nikon spot on program I pick the Hornady bullet I am using and adjust the speed before I hit ok to see the distances of the reticle I'm using and what scope I'm using.

I've noticed the differences in range per what power you click for the scope. I sight in at full power, I shoot the tiny chucks 98% of the time on full power so I don't pay any attention to anything less than full power on the Nikon website.

Hope what I wrote is understandable,,,,I reread it but not sure LoL

 

[dubleuhb]

I'm also not a fan of the BDC. I have one on my TC Omega muzzleloader, it's fine in bright conditions, I'll leave it on. I just put a Monarch III on my 700 Varmint gun, found out last weekend during a night hunt it is useless.

 

[Snappo]

Here's how I sight scopes:
Step 1 - I got a Wheeler Electronics scope mounting kit on Midway USA. It has the torque wrench, those metal rods, etc. Maybe $150? or so? I forget.
Step 2 - I take the scope off. I make sure the base is perfectly aligned with my scope mounting kit. I use the right size rod and the rubber mallet.
Step 3 - I put the scope setup back together using the provided red loctite and put everything to the right torque settings for that scope and base.
Step 4A - I use the green laser from Wheeler electronics at 25 yards because 25 yards more or less equals 100 yards from a drop perspective. I bought the green laser (also maybe $100?) because I was told the red lasers are not good compared to the green lasers.
Step 4B - OK I started doing this step because FUCK THAT STUPID LASER! So I take the bolt out, put the gun in the cradle, and look down the barrel and align the barrel visually to the scope so both are center target at 25 yards. That laser wastes WAY MORE ammo than looking down the barrel.
Step 5 - I dial in the scope at 100 yards using live ammo. The difference between 25 yards and 100 yards is about an inch for most rifle calibers.
Step 6 - I go out to 200, 300, 400, 500 and 600 and make note of my dope (I use a spreadsheet). If I cannot get to 600 because I reached max MOA, then I come back on this site and look at a thread I wrote about my Pentax not aligning. Someone responded with how to crosshair to center MOA using a mirror and then counting your up and your down and your windage. If I am not in center on the mirror I send the scope to the manufacturer. I also double check to make sure I have a 20 MOA base and not a 0 MOA base on the rifle. And I also google the scope to see how many MOA the scope is. I find the 60 MOA scopes never give me grief at 600; but the Pentax Lightseeker 30 at 40 MOA gave me nothing but heartache.

Important note: I do everything at the lowest magnification possible. I only go to 9 power at 500 and 600. I leave my scope at 2 or 3 power (or whatever is lowest) at 100 through 400. And I never get a scope to go over 10 because of mirage. That becomes a factor right at about 10 power.

 

[Snappo]

I'm also not a fan of the BDC. I have one on my TC Omega muzzleloader, it's fine in bright conditions, I'll leave it on. I just put a Monarch III on my 700 Varmint gun, found out last weekend during a night hunt it is useless.

I agree with you. In low light I prefer just to count clicks. You need rabbit eyes to see those little BDC marks unless your reticle is brightly illuminated. Luckily my low light setup is a scope with 1 MOA clicks (Leupold Tactical) so typically I am not doing a lot of clicks (2 at 200, 5 at 300, 11 at 400, 17 at 500). And that Leupold also has a bright red illuminated reticle.

 

[Cleck]

He is sniper trained and will have none of it and neither will I.
Rant, over. Good luck in your search Click!!!!
Robin

Well, I'm not sniper trained, so there's that I would also assume that someone who has been through sniper school definitely would not need the BDC, as they can calculate drop and everything much better/fluidly. Who's Click?

@capitalcrew I think that what you said there shows that you definitely don't need the BDC and I could benefit from it, since all I can guess is that -2.2, -12.5 is the MOA adjustments for those yardages, which I obviously don't know enough about yet. This one does not have the caps to set to zero.

@JamieZ I think I understand. You have a pretty decent understanding of the ballistics of your cartridges, so you just pair your knowledge with some help from the Spot On, and you're good to go.

@Snappo Whoa, info overload, haha. I did buy a cartridge laser bore last week, I intend on seeing how it'll help me sight this current scope, then the new one. Unfortunately, it's red. I tried looking down the barrel, but how the fuck do you see anything? I couldn't tell what I was seeing down the barrel.

Being that this is a $250 rifle, I don't need a baller scope and this will fit my needs and hopefully teach me enough about MOA so I can learn and move on to a better scope later. Once I understand the adjustments that need to be made and I can explain them, then I can move on to a traditional scope.

Thanks for your inputs so far, the zeroing info has been helpful

 

[Eddie Gunks]

Nah it doesn't matter what magnification you sight in at.

Yes it does. You can have too much power at 100. Ie 24 power is too much. Possible parallax etc etc.

 

[Eddie Gunks]

Also note that isf it is a second focal plan scope your bdc will be off at any magnification other than lowest and highest. (The crosshairs are gtg at any magnification).

 

[Snappo]

@Snappo Whoa, info overload, haha. I did buy a cartridge laser bore last week, I intend on seeing how it'll help me sight this current scope, then the new one. Unfortunately, it's red. I tried looking down the barrel, but how the fuck do you see anything? I couldn't tell what I was seeing down the barrel.

I wish I could take a picture for you but it's hella cold out there and I don't feel like snowmobiling down to the shooting range. So here is how I would describe what I do.
Step 1) I take out the bolt and put the weapon in my Led Sled.
Step 2) I take off the turret covers and get ready to dope the scope.
Step 3) I look through the barrel where I am in the shade but the target is in the sunlight (so I can see it easiest).
Step 4) I adjust the Led Sled so the barrel points directly at the center of the paper target. NOTE: As you look down the barrel you will see the end of the barrel is way smaller than the front that you are peering through and you can see the riflings. So you are basically seeing 2 circles, one inside the other. Make sure the inner circle is in the dead center of the outer circle and not leaning up, down, left or right. So for example - if the far end of the barrel is way to the right where it looks like the little circle is touching the big circle of the start of the tunnel near your eye, then of course the barrel is aiming right by a few degrees. That far end of the barrel has to visually be dead center from the big end you are looking down.
Step 5) Gently (so you don't change where your barrel is pointing) adjust the windage and elevation so the cross hairs are touching the same spot on the target your barrel is pointing to. Go back and forth between barrel and scope until you are 100% sure they are both pointed exactly at the same spot.

 

[Snappo]

Yes it does. You can have too much power at 100. Ie 24 power is too much. Possible parallax etc etc.

Manufacturers should tell people that shit - I swear. Like this:
Warning: use lowest possible power where you can see the target for shooting. Anything over 10 power is just so you can look down field and observe mirage to get your wind calculations. This riflescope has a high magnification setting so that it replaces the need for a spotting scope.

 

[dsdmmat]

It is very rare my scopes come off max power, they might get set to a lower power on a hot day because of mirage or when I am trying to scan at a distance but, they pretty much stay at max power. I also have BDC reticles which I will play with when there is no scoring on the line. When scoring counts I dial up the distance from my notebook on the rifle.

 

[Cleck]

Also note that isf it is a second focal plan scope your bdc will be off at any magnification other than lowest and highest

I didn't post them, but this one adjusts those values for 4-12, I just posted the low and the high to show the difference. Is that what you mean, or something else?

I also realize that for the most part, I won't be hunting on max power, unless the target really is far away. Too much zoom, lose the target. Probably will be at lower powers for the majority of things I see (I'm guessing).

 

[Eddie Gunks]

I didn't post them, but this one adjusts those values for 4-12, I just posted the low and the high to show the difference. Is that what you mean, or something else?

I also realize that for the most part, I won't be hunting on max power, unless the target really is far away. Too much zoom, lose the target. Probably will be at lower powers for the majority of things I see (I'm guessing).

For example At 9 power your bdc wont be calibrated perfectly. Basicslly your bdc is only calibrated for 4 power and 12 power (on second focsl plane scopes). If your reticle stays the same size at all magnifications it is SFP.

 

[capitalcrew]

While hunting I'm normally 3-5 even in the open. I'll only go to 9 if there is something real far away not moving.

-as I said though, I don't use the bdc

 

[Cleck]

For example At 9 power your bdc wont be calibrated perfectly. Basicslly your bdc is only calibrated for 4 power and 12 power (on second focsl plane scopes). If your reticle stays the same size at all magnifications it is SFP.

Ok, so then I guess I'm confused when I see this then. At 9x, is this inaccurate, a guess, or did they actually calibrate it given the information I entered?

 

[BDSKJCHRIS]

i strongly advise against any BDC type reticle unless it is super specific to your rifle, (such as the ones in an acog or other rco).

look at scopes with mil or moa reticles and make sure they have matching turrets. swfa, primary arms, vortex, burris, etc...all have good quality optics at affordable prices.

to figure out your holds, use a program/app like strelok. definitely worth the price of the pro version.

nssf has a lot of good videos on youtube on scopes, sighting in, using mil and moa, and setting up a scope to work for you.

 

[Cleck]

Ok, care to explain why you advise against the BDC reticle? Lots have said they don't prefer/need it, but you're the first to really say, "don't use it"

Also, are you saying don't use any BDC reticles, despite the make, or just don't use the BDC on Nikon scopes? I've noticed the BDC on a Vortex is hash marks instead of circles on some of their scopes. Getting a mildot would make me have to learn Mrads (not similar to MOA?) and it seems a bit overkill for what I'll actually be doing. I'd like some sort of visual to help me adjust for different yardages, so that's why I'm not interested in a plain duplex/German style reticle. Not saying I need full on Christmas tree reticle, but something to help would be great.

 

[Snappo]

i strongly advise against any BDC type reticle unless it is super specific to your rifle, (such as the ones in an acog or other rco).

look at scopes with mil or moa reticles and make sure they have matching turrets. swfa, primary arms, vortex, burris, etc...all have good quality optics at affordable prices.

to figure out your holds, use a program/app like strelok. definitely worth the price of the pro version.

nssf has a lot of good videos on youtube on scopes, sighting in, using mil and moa, and setting up a scope to work for you.

I don't agree. To me it's the same thing.

Example: let's say you are the spotter and I am the shooter and I have an MOA reticle on one scope (like my Leupold LR/T) and some sort of BDC plex (like my Nikon M-308) on another. Both scopes have 1/2 MOA clicks. Irrespective of the scope if you tell me to dope up 17.5 MOA because you ranged my target at 600 yards, I am going to do 35 clicks. Now let's say you say "Snap - don't dope but use the reticle". Now by default since you are spotting, you told me my drop is 37.5". If I have the Nikon I need to look at my Nikon SpotOn app and see what bubble I should be looking at . In this 600 yard scenario the 3rd big bubble since that's 630 yards and I should shoot like a half inch high.

I mean I get that Uncle Sam made sure we all learned how to range and use mildot and understand what minutes of angle are; but I really think this BDC setup is pretty easy peasy Japanesy. So I dunno. Just gimme a rifle dialed in at 100, tell me my windage and elevation in MOA clicks, and then lemme just shoot.

 

[ProgSpear]

and then there's the windage thing... (that I suck at)

 

[Robin]

Click is Cleck on autocorrect.
Robin

 

[Cleck]

I don't agree. To me it's the same thing.

Example: let's say you are the spotter and I am the shooter and I have an MOA reticle on one scope (like my Leupold LR/T) and some sort of BDC plex (like my Nikon M-308) on another. Both scopes have 1/2 MOA clicks. Irrespective of the scope if you tell me to dope up 17.5 MOA because you ranged my target at 600 yards, I am going to do 35 clicks. Now let's say you say "Snap - don't dope but use the reticle". Now by default since you are spotting, you told me my drop is 37.5". If I have the Nikon I need to look at my Nikon SpotOn app and see what bubble I should be looking at . In this 600 yard scenario the 3rd big bubble since that's 630 yards and I should shoot like a half inch high.

I mean I get that Uncle Sam made sure we all learned how to range and use mildot and understand what minutes of angle are; but I really think this BDC setup is pretty easy peasy Japanesy. So I dunno. Just gimme a rifle dialed in at 100, tell me my windage and elevation in MOA clicks, and then lemme just shoot.

I thought they were all 1/4" MOA clicks? Or is the M-308 1/2?

I think the way you just explained it makes perfect sense. They take most of the work out of it, all you have to do is put in your atmospheric conditions (if you're outside, which you usually are) and load and go to work.

If I get it and get it dialed in, I may do what a lot of people do and print off these values and bring them, then adjust accordingly for the wind. I think they made the app so that it doesn't need to be connected, it's all offline calculations, but just in case, I'd probably bring a reference card at least.

I think once I'm all up and running, an NYGF shoot should be in order. I'd like to see some of y'alls rigs and get some input while out on the range.

 

[Robin]

BDC has more to do with marketing than practical application.
Robin

 

[BDSKJCHRIS]

I don't agree. To me it's the same thing.

Example: let's say you are the spotter and I am the shooter and I have an MOA reticle on one scope (like my Leupold LR/T) and some sort of BDC plex (like my Nikon M-308) on another. Both scopes have 1/2 MOA clicks. Irrespective of the scope if you tell me to dope up 17.5 MOA because you ranged my target at 600 yards, I am going to do 35 clicks. Now let's say you say "Snap - don't dope but use the reticle". Now by default since you are spotting, you told me my drop is 37.5". If I have the Nikon I need to look at my Nikon SpotOn app and see what bubble I should be looking at . In this 600 yard scenario the 3rd big bubble since that's 630 yards and I should shoot like a half inch high.

I mean I get that Uncle Sam made sure we all learned how to range and use mildot and understand what minutes of angle are; but I really think this BDC setup is pretty easy peasy Japanesy. So I dunno. Just gimme a rifle dialed in at 100, tell me my windage and elevation in MOA clicks, and then lemme just shoot.

but that bdc is only dead on and useful for 1 specific setup. and chances are, the rifle you mount that scope to will not be an exact match to the setup. so now you have to do a bunch of testing, collect data and figure out what the BDC holds are actually good for, (which more often than not will be a bunch of oddball ranges), it is much easier to have a dope card that tells you how much drop you have at set increments, and how much wind affects your trajectory, as well as a scope with a standardized unit of measurement built into the reticle.

in your scenario of being told to hold over instead of adjusting the vertical turret, you have to consult with an app or dope card to figure out which bubble on the reticle you should use. with an moa or mil based reticle, you would simply hold on the hash mark that your spotter told you.

 

[Cleck]

I think the fact that you guys are spitting out all this info at this rate and I'm basically looking everything up means that I do not need a MIL/MOA reticle now and should probably be fine with a BDC until I learn more, understand it, and can explain why/how I understand it.