Pistol-grip-only shotguns are now banned Others in New York

[subsonic]

So we now are having to grapple with the impact of the new gun package rammed through in NY. The "other" ban was obviously promoted to close the "loophole" where apparently full-featured AR "pistols" with a vertical grip were apparently legal (with 10 round mags), but its expansive language banned other "others" like the pump-action Shockwave, the top-selling shottie in the country.

I've seen discussion of the fact that the Mossberg Shockwave and TAC14 are now banned in New York, but not the fact that all pistol-grip-only shotguns are now illegal in New York once this law takes effect, whether this was intended or not. New York law defines a shotgun as "a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder," which pistol-grip-only shotguns are not, regardless of barrel length. The new law defines any gun that is not a rifle or a shotgun as a "firearm", firearms are illegal without a permit, and there is no permit for pistol-grip-only shotguns. Ergo, they are now banned.

 

[Truebeliever]

So we now are having to grapple with the impact of the new gun package rammed through in NY. The "other" ban was obviously promoted to close the "loophole" where apparently full-featured AR "pistols" with a vertical grip were apparently legal (with 10 round mags), but its expansive language banned other "others" like the pump-action Shockwave, the top-selling shottie in the country.

I've seen discussion of the fact that the Mossberg Shockwave and TAC14 are now banned in New York, but not the fact that all pistol-grip-only shotguns are now illegal in New York once this law takes effect, whether this was intended or not. New York law defines a shotgun as "a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder," which pistol-grip-only shotguns are not, regardless of barrel length. The new law defines any gun that is not a rifle or a shotgun as a "firearm", firearms are illegal without a permit, and there is no permit for pistol-grip-only shotguns. Ergo, they are now banned.

So, if a semi auto rifle now gets on a permit as per the new law, one could convert it to an “other”? Is that how the law is written or are they just banned altogether?
Is it illegal to possess or just illegal to be sold here?
Does a shotgun or rifle technically become illegal if one removes the mechanics from a stock to repair the stock?

 

[subsonic]

So, if a semi auto rifle now gets on a permit as per the new law, one could convert it to an “other”? Is that how the law is written or are they just banned altogether?

Banned altogether. You can keep legal semi-auto rifles you own now, you might still be allowed to buy non-semis and convert them to semi without a permit, although you'd almost certainly at least be violating the new gunsmithing laws without a gunsmith permit, unless you did the conversion out of state, which might be another totally legal way around the permit. But anything that's not a "shotgun," "rifle" or "pistol with a permit" is illegal to possess from July 6, in the same way possessing a machinegun or a pistol without a permit is illegal in New York.

No compensation for being a compliant sheep either, of course.

Edit: My and others' reading of the new law is that semis are not "on" the new semiauto permit, the way pistols are on your pistol permit. You just need to have the permit to purchase/receive semiauto rifles in New York. You don't need put them on your permit or amend with a judge when you buy them or carry it when you possess it or anything like that. But once you get the permit you have to keep it renewed, and NYSP gets records of all gun transfers going forward, so they know who has legally possesses semiauto rifles acquired after this takes effect.

 

[spat]

So we now are having to grapple with the impact of the new gun package rammed through in NY. The "other" ban was obviously promoted to close the "loophole" where apparently full-featured AR "pistols" with a vertical grip were apparently legal (with 10 round mags), but its expansive language banned other "others" like the pump-action Shockwave, the top-selling shottie in the country.

I've seen discussion of the fact that the Mossberg Shockwave and TAC14 are now banned in New York, but not the fact that all pistol-grip-only shotguns are now illegal in New York once this law takes effect, whether this was intended or not. New York law defines a shotgun as "a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder," which pistol-grip-only shotguns are not, regardless of barrel length. The new law defines any gun that is not a rifle or a shotgun as a "firearm", firearms are illegal without a permit, and there is no permit for pistol-grip-only shotguns. Ergo, they are now banned.

What prevents you from adding your shockwave to your pistol permit ?

Pretty sure if I called the livingston county clerk and gave them a make, model, serial number, caliber, and barrel length they would add it.

 

[Deplorable Me]

What prevents you from adding your shockwave to your pistol permit ?

Pretty sure if I called the livingston county clerk and gave them a make, model, serial number, caliber, and barrel length they would add it.

Weight limit?

 

[Celt]

Ok, so people will start selling "single shot" ar15s that can just be "converted" to standard semi auto. These types of laws are just infuriating.

 

[subsonic]

What prevents you from adding your shockwave to your pistol permit ?

What would prevent me first of all is that I don't have a gun confiscation, sorry, pistol, permit.

Pretty sure if I called the livingston county clerk and gave them a make, model, serial number, caliber, and barrel length they would add it.

Why don't you try it? This might work in some counties. Registering an illegal gun doesn't make it legal. If NYSP finds you with a gun on their naughty list producing a permit won't save you. I don't think NY Penal Law defines "pistol," but every definition I've seen includes designed to fire with one hand. That's the whole point of pistol braces. How do you fire a pump-action shotgun with one hand? Please do not send links to Terminator or cowboy movies. That's not how the slide is designed to be operated.

And if a Shockwave can be a pistol then every dealer and permitless Shockwave owner has been breaking the law up until now.

Weight limit?

That would only matter for semiautomatic. But yes, if you tried putting a hand brace on a semiautomatic Shockwave and calling it a pistol then the SAFE act 50 oz. limit would make it an illegal assault weapon.

Ok, so people will start selling "single shot" ar15s that can just be "converted" to standard semi auto. These types of laws are just infuriating.

I hope so, but yes, this will make buying or building rifles harder and more prohibitively expensive in New York. By design. Of course this will do nothing to make anyone safer and only make life harder for the compliant.

Uzi:

You're confusing pistol grips and the reason you're even able to purchase these "other" shotguns. The Tac-14 and shockwave specifically DON'T use or have pistol grips, otherwise they would be illegal on the federal level. They're featureless (no pistol grip) with the qualifying overall length to meet that criteria.

It's important that you realize that since actual pistol grip pump actions with or without a stock aren't illegal with a long enough barrel length. Please correct the title or edit your post so it's not incorrect and clickbaity.

I hope I'm wrong, but show me. I'm talking about the new "Other" ban in New York. I don't think you've (or others) worked through the consequences. It's not that the grip of the Shockwave and Tac-14 is not "pistolly" enough that make it slide through federal and state laws previously. It was the fact that the length of the grip made the overall length greater than 26 inches which took it out of the federal definition of a pistol (which can't be smooth-bore under federal law), and the lack of a shoulder stock kept it from being a SBS under federal or state law. If it were a conventional pistol grip it would be less than 26 inches in overall length which would make it a concealable smooth bore pistol under federal law and therefore illegal.

The new New York "Other" ban defines any explosively shooty weapon that is not a rifle or shotgun a firearm. The only firearms you can get permits for are pistols and grandfathered assault weapons (which I think is going away too? edit: nope that's the grandfathered mags), otherwise they are banned. Any pistol-grip only shotgun is not a "shotgun" under the penal law definition, which must be "intended to be fired from the shoulder". Why were either Shockwaves or longer PGO shotguns legal in New York previously? Not because they were legally defined as "shotguns" under New York law, but because they were not defined as "firearms", being enumerated as "any pistol or revolver", SBS, SBR, <26 in. rifle/shotgun, or assault weapon. So they were OTHERS, not falling under any regulated definition. OTHERS which are now banned effective July 6.

If I'm wrong, please show your work.

 

[Modean]

Lots of Shockwaves were sold as legal in NY over a period of several years. This new definition is ripe for a legal challenge since no one is being offered compensation for the weapon they purchased in good faith.

 

[Truebeliever]

Lots of Shockwaves were sold as legal in NY over a period of several years. This new definition is ripe for a legal challenge since no one is being offered compensation for the weapon they purchased in good faith.

Come on, man. That challenge is never going to work in NYS courts or this federal court circuit. SCOTUS? I doubt it but let’s see how they enforce their Heller rulings or the 2A decision due soon.

 

[subsonic]

Come on, man. That challenge is never going to work in NYS courts or this federal court circuit. SCOTUS? I doubt it but let’s see how they enforce their Heller rulings or the 2A decision due soon.

I think Kav and ACB would both be sympathetic to finding Shockwaves but especially PGO shotguns to be "in common use" and therefore 2A protected (how far back to PGO shotguns go? probably at least the 1600s in some form?), but until we see a tidal shift in SCOTUS's 2A jurisprudence I do not foresee that happening.

Then again there was that case where the nunchuk guy won based on Heller, so I wouldn't give up hope entirely. Just mostly, in the short term. A lot rides on how the NYSRPA case turns out. There's a lot more Shockwave and PGO shotguns than nunchuks.

 

[kzin]

It depends on why PGO shotguns have been considered to be legal in NY.
Because they're just a type of shotgun and clearly not SBS or because they fell through the none-of-the-above loophole?
I think it's the first.

I think PGO were federally ruled to be modifications of a shotgun originally intended to be fired from the shoulder.
For SOME reason a PGO with a 14" barrel is SBS federally but a shockwave isn't.
Federal isn't binding on state but it's at least suggestive.
NY can't be bothered telling us what the laws really are.

A Mossberg 590 is intended to be fired from the shoulder.
A PGO 590 was originally intended to be fired from the shoulder so can't have a short barrel.
A Shockwave is a different gun with a different grip that was ostensibly never intended to be fired from the shoulder.
It's silly but I think that's the way it works.

I think an 18" barrel 27" overall PGO has always been a legal shotgun and will remain so.
At worst there is a relatively simple fix to put on a folding stock.

eta - I see my main argument is simply the opposite of one already made. hmmm.

 

[kzin]

Another thing that occurs to me is it has always been considered legal to modify a shotgun as long as it remained 18/27.
Even if you hacked off enough of the stock so it was useless for firing from the shoulder.
Don;t ask me for binding legal precedent, though.

 

[spat]

Weight limit?

There is no weight limit for putting things on a pistol permit. No actual requirement that it even be a pistol to add it.

Do not mistake the limits for what is a legal handgun for the limits of what can be put on a NY pistol permit.

You used to be able to own a Serbu Super Shorty on a NY pistol permit and they are an NFA regulated AOW.

What would prevent me first of all is that I don't have a gun confiscation, sorry, pistol, permit.

Why don't you try it? This might work in some counties. Registering an illegal gun doesn't make it legal. If NYSP finds you with a gun on their naughty list producing a permit won't save you. I don't think NY Penal Law defines "pistol," but every definition I've seen includes designed to fire with one hand. That's the whole point of pistol braces. How do you fire a pump-action shotgun with one hand? Please do not send links to Terminator or cowboy movies. That's not how the slide is designed to be operated.

And if a Shockwave can be a pistol then every dealer and permitless Shockwave owner has been breaking the law up until now.

That would only matter for semiautomatic. But yes, if you tried putting a hand brace on a semiautomatic Shockwave and calling it a pistol then the SAFE act 50 oz. limit would make it an illegal assault weapon.

I hope so, but yes, this will make buying or building rifles harder and more prohibitively expensive in New York. By design. Of course this will do nothing to make anyone safer and only make life harder for the compliant.

Uzi:

I hope I'm wrong, but show me. I'm talking about the new "Other" ban in New York. I don't think you've (or others) worked through the consequences. It's not that the grip of the Shockwave and Tac-14 is not "pistolly" enough that make it slide through federal and state laws previously. It was the fact that the length of the grip made the overall length greater than 26 inches which took it out of the federal definition of a pistol (which can't be smooth-bore under federal law), and the lack of a shoulder stock kept it from being a SBS under federal or state law. If it were a conventional pistol grip it would be less than 26 inches in overall length which would make it a concealable smooth bore pistol under federal law and therefore illegal.

The new New York "Other" ban defines any explosively shooty weapon that is not a rifle or shotgun a firearm. The only firearms you can get permits for are pistols and grandfathered assault weapons (which I think is going away too?), otherwise they are banned. Any pistol-grip only shotgun is not a "shotgun" under the penal law definition, which must be "intended to be fired from the shoulder". Why were either Shockwaves or longer PGO shotguns legal in New York previously? Not because they were legally defined as "shotguns" under New York law, but because they were not defined as "firearms", being enumerated as "any pistol or revolver", SBS, SBR, <26 in. rifle/shotgun, or assault weapon. So they were OTHERS, not falling under any regulated definition. OTHERS which are now banned effective July 6.

If I'm wrong, please show your work.

I don't have a shockwave, and I live in Arizona. I do have a NY permit.

I could file a form 1 and turn my Saiga-12 into an SBS and add it to my permit and there's nothing they could say but "no" and "don't bring it into NY."

You are making the mistake of thinking that the laws for what constitutes an illegal handgun and the laws for what you can put on a permit are the same thing. They are not.

the 50oz limit applies to pistols, not others. Adding others to a pistol permit does not turn them into handguns.

It depends on why PGO shotguns have been considered to be legal in NY.
Because they're just a type of shotgun and clearly not SBS or because they fell through the none-of-the-above loophole?
I think it's the first.

I think PGO were federally ruled to be modifications of a shotgun originally intended to be fired from the shoulder.
For SOME reason a PGO with a 14" barrel is SBS federally but a shockwave isn't.
Federal isn't binding on state but it's at least suggestive.
NY can't be bothered telling us what the laws really are.

A Mossberg 590 is intended to be fired from the shoulder.
A PGO 590 was originally intended to be fired from the shoulder so can't have a short barrel.
A Shockwave is a different gun with a different grip that was ostensibly never intended to be fired from the shoulder.
It's silly but I think that's the way it works.

I think an 18" barrel 27" overall PGO has always been a legal shotgun and will remain so.
At worst there is a relatively simple fix to put on a folding stock.

eta - I see my main argument is simply the opposite of one already made. hmmm.

The difference between an other and an SBS is what it left the factory as.

What makes the others special is that the 26+" OAL makes them not "concealable". And the lack of a stock makes them not shoulderable.

Those 2 qualities are requisites to be considered a handgun or a shotgun.

26+" means not a handgun.
No stock means not a shotgun.

NY has it's whole own set of rules that use terms with completely different definitions than the feds.

In NY a shotgun or rifle isn't a firearm. That's why it doesn't need to be on a permit to carry a firearm.


The whole scheme is a train wreck. That's why it's packed full of all this crap that doesn't make sense.

 

[TonyRossi]

So much false information being given out on these boards.

 

[subsonic]

You are making the mistake of thinking that the laws for what constitutes an illegal handgun and the laws for what you can put on a permit are the same thing. They are not.

I made this point directly. I could ask a judge to put a short lobster on a pistol permit and just because he signs off on it doesn't make it legal to possess a short lobster. All a pistol permit can do is make it legal for the holder to possess a listed pistol in New York. If it's not "any pistol or revolver" under New York law then it is legally meaningless, and won't defend against prosecution.

 

[Edwardteach72]

So much false information being given out on these boards.

 

[ManrisFrack]

Do not mistake the limits for what is a legal handgun for the limits of what can be put on a NY pistol permit.

You used to be able to own a Serbu Super Shorty on a NY pistol permit and they are an NFA regulated AOW.

The kicker is that the exemption to the default criminal status for possession of a firearm specifically mentions "...pistol or revolver..." Super Shorty's, Shockwaves, and all the rest caught by this "...any other weapon that is not otherwise defined..." language are not mentioned in the Exemption section. I don't think possession of the Super Shorty was technically legal just on the basis of having it on a permit.

 

[subsonic]

Another thing that occurs to me is it has always been considered legal to modify a shotgun as long as it remained 18/27.
Even if you hacked off enough of the stock so it was useless for firing from the shoulder.
Don;t ask me for binding legal precedent, though.

Yeah, I'd try to put it nicely but your entire analysis is a mess. PGO shotguns were legal because they didn't fit in anything prohibited. They were not "shotguns" under the plain definition in the NY penal law, nor any of the enumerated "firearm" categories. Now they fit the new definition of "firearm," so they are banned. Federal law is irrelevant to the NY definition of "firearm" or "shotgun" (although it might be persuasive to what a "pistol" is since there's no definition in the New York penal law for "pistol"). There's no "it's okay if it used to be a shotgun or would be one if you put a shoulder stock on" provision in the law.

 

[kzin]

It took me a while to believe it but there is absolutely no explicit definition of pistol in ny law.

Given that, seems like having it on your pistol permit would make it a pistol.
IFF they accepted it.

 

[subsonic]

It took me a while to believe it but there is absolutely no explicit definition of pistol in ny law.

Given that, seems like having it on your pistol permit would make it a pistol.
IFF they accepted it.

No. Just no.

If you need more than that, I can record a deed conveying the state capitol to me, does that make me the owner when the clerk accepts it? Please don't answer.

 

[JaguarJaguarGolf]

Saw shockwaves for sale today in Orange County.

When does law take effect?

Making them illegal an ex post facto law?

 

[kzin]

No. Just no.

If you need more than that, I can record a deed conveying the state capitol to me, does that make me the owner when the clerk accepts it? Please don't answer.

Analogy fails on the assumption that there are other reasons your deed is not legal.

So what is a pistol?
It can;t be a rifle or shotgun or revolver.
Can't be an SBS or SBR.

What state law says a shockwave can't be?
It definitely drops into none-of-the-above if it is NOT a licensed pistol,
I'm not even saying it can be,
I just see no law to decide.

 

[subsonic]

Saw shockwaves for sale today in Orange County.

When does law take effect?

July 6. And out-of-state FFLs will also be responsible under federal law for not selling them to NY residents. So get yours now or start packing if you want one.

Making them illegal an ex post facto law?

Good luck with that. Precedents say it's only ex post facto if the law criminalized possession in the past. There's all sorts of other arguments (2nd amendment, uncompensated takings) but not ex post facto if they give you time and a means to get rid of the item before it is criminalized.

So what is a pistol?
It can;t be a rifle or shotgun or revolver.
Can't be an SBS or SBR.

This is getting old. Pistol and revolver aren't explicitly defined in the penal law. Courts will look to precedents and the common definition, e.g. dictionaries or other laws. Pistols and revolvers are designed to be fired with one hand. A firearm permit only exempts you from prosecution for possessing listed pistols or revolvers (ignoring grandfathered assault weapons or future-acquired semiautomatic rifles).

What state law says a shockwave can't be?
It definitely drops into none-of-the-above if it is NOT a licensed pistol,
I'm not even saying it can be,
I just see no law to decide.

Let me put this simply one more time. Both PGO shotguns and Shockwaves are legal in New York until July 6 because the law had no category to prohibit them. They were not shotguns (designed to be shouldered). They were not any category of "firearm" under New York law. Edit: It does not surprise me that you never heard of a separate "other" category for PGO shotguns; how many people even know that a shotgun or a rifle is not a "firearm" under New York law? Very few. It's not like they teach this in hunter ed. It had no consequences in daily life.

A10504 takes effect July 6 and changes the definition of "firearm" to include "ANY OTHER WEAPON THAT IS NOT OTHERWISE DEFINED ... DESIGNED ... TO EXPEL A PROJECTILE BY ACTION OF EXPLOSIVE." That includes Shockwaves. That also includes any PGO shotgun, which is not and never has been a "shotgun" at all under New York law.

 

[kzin]

. PGO shotguns were legal because they didn't fit in anything prohibited. They were not "shotguns" under the plain definition in the NY penal law,

If that is true then there is no discussion. They're now banned.

In 40 years as a NY gun owner I don't recall any acknowledgement of this 'other' category until the shockwave came about.
There was never any discussion of PGOs or literal 'sawed offs' with 18" barrels needing this logical loophole.
They were just shotguns modified within legal limits.

Of course that's not legally binding but neither is the other assumption.

 

[kzin]

Saw shockwaves for sale today in Orange County.

When does law take effect?

Making them illegal an ex post facto law?

Only ex post facto if they charge you for something you did before the effective date.
Possession doesn't count because you'd be doing it after the passage.

For some reason ex post facto is a constitutional prohibition that legislatures almost never break.

 

[kzin]

Let me put this simply one more time. Both PGO shotguns and Shockwaves are legal in New York until July 6 because the law had no category to prohibit them. They were not shotguns (designed to be shouldered). They were not any category of "firearm" under New York law. Edit: It does not surprise me that you never heard of a separate "other" category for PGO shotguns; how many people even know that a shotgun or a rifle is not a "firearm" under New York law? Very few. It's not like they teach this in hunter ed. It had no consequences in daily life.

Thank you so much for repeating the same assumption one more time. Unforunately, I still don't accept it with absolutely no support other than you saying it one more time.

My equally unsupported assumption remains that PGOs with 18" barrels have always been regarded as modifications of shotguns 'intended' to be fired from the shoulder and will remain so.

 

[kzin]

New York's New Gun Laws Part IV - "Closing Loopholes" Others and Magazines — New York Criminal Attorney Blog — June 9, 2022

ANY OTHER WEAPONS We have written in the past extensively about the Mossberg Shockwave, Remington Tac-14 and AR-15 others. The basic principle involves a — June 9, 2022

www.newyorkcriminalattorneyblog.com

Lawyers don't claim to know these things yet either.

This suggests both that counties probably shouldn't accept shockwaves as pistols and that the individual would be covered IF THEY DO.

 

[subsonic]

Lawyers don't claim to know these things yet either.

This suggests both that counties probably shouldn't accept shockwaves as pistols and that the individual would be covered IF THEY DO.

If you want to believe a court will find that a pistol grip only shotgun is "intended to be fired from the shoulder" then there's no arguing with you. And if you want to register a clearly banned firearm with the state of New York of all places on your pistol permit so that NYSP knows exactly where to go to seize it if you're lucky and make a felony arrest if you're not then don't let me stop you.

 

[Acer-m14]

can i shoot my mini 14 from the hip or do i have to shoulder it per law .. ?? or even my moss 500AT pump 12ga .. ??

because it has a stock that flips up .. snickers ..

 

[spat]

Saw shockwaves for sale today in Orange County.

When does law take effect?

Making them illegal an ex post facto law?

That's not how ex post facto works.

If you continue to possess it after it has been outlawed, then they can prosecute you.

What ex post facto says is that they can't prosecute you for something you used to possess.

It isn't a grandfather clause.