Virginia legislature passes bill preventing cops from stopping cars with no headlights, brake lights, etc

[spat]

I will agree that we don't need a law for everything. These days I can't be bothered with stopping people for their stupidity, when I was with the military police, if I saw a vehicle without headlights on it was never a fishing trip, it was always pullover hey your lights are off is everything okay. I was on my way never once did I ticket.

That's how it should be. That's not how it is anymore.

We have all pulled out on a well lit street with the lights on "one click instead of 2" before. Usually another driver will flash their lights to let you know, and you'll turn them on.

But now *every* time an officer pulls someone over they are doing a cursory search, for warrants, smells, paperwork violations, etc...

If you walked up to the window and said "hey, your lights were off" and the driver turned them on and said "thanks officer, I didn’t notice" and you went on your way, nobody would have a problem.

But thats not how it goes. It starts out "license and registration", or in other words "papers please".

 

[spat]

This victimless thing that people on this form love to throw out. My opinion it's a garbage argument. I also wonder how many people would still think it's victimless when their family their children are murdered by drunk drivers. yeah that's right I just put feelings and emotions into the argument

Once they harm someone else, it's not victimless anymore.

There is no "victimless" crime that causes anyone any harm, *by definition*.

So, it's not a matter of being emotional. It's a matter of changing the subject mid argument.

 

[GOPerfect]

That's how it should be. That's not how it is anymore.

We have all pulled out on a well lit street with the lights on "one click instead of 2" before. Usually another driver will flash their lights to let you know, and you'll turn them on.

But now *every* time an officer pulls someone over they are doing a cursory search, for warrants, smells, paperwork violations, etc...

If you walked up to the window and said "hey, your lights were off" and the driver turned them on and said "thanks officer, I didn’t notice" and you went on your way, nobody would have a problem.

But thats not how it goes. It starts out "license and registration", or in other words "papers please".

So, maybe I just hang and pal around with different kinds of cops, maybe the department I am a member of is different than members here are used to... Many of this fishing thing that is discussed, rarely occurs. I know, haters will hate and not believe this.

The issues that many Americans have is not with the Police, it is with the law makers.

 

[GOPerfect]

I hate spiders. You people have idea how much I hate them. If this were my truck, I would not be able to drive until I completely cleaned the entire interior to include a long afternoon of vacuuming

 

[pjzwtl]

So it's a 60% chance of being a simple harassment. Don't like those odds.

Or 100% safety issue either way.

 

[spat]

So, maybe I just hang and pal around with different kinds of cops, maybe the department I am a member of is different than members here are used to... Many of this fishing thing that is discussed, rarely occurs. I know, haters will hate and not believe this.

The issues that many Americans have is not with the Police, it is with the law makers.

My experience is that the upstate rural departments are pretty good. But, I bet nearly every traffic stop anyone in your department does includes a warrant check and a cursory search like I have described. I imagine anyone *not* doing those things on a stop would be considered "not doing their job".

You are absolutely correct about that last statement though.

The root of all of these problems is the legislature (and to a lesser extent the judiciary).

The executive (i.e. the cops) will always ask for more powers that will make their jobs easier and more effective. It's the other 2 branches job to say "no" most of the time.

 

[Blimey]

We survived just fine before these laws. We'd be just fine without them now.

A lot of people didn't survive just fine. Drunk driving deaths per person are way down over the past forty years.

I would be willing to bet that despite his statement to the contrary, @Blimey would still use his headlights and drive at a reasonable speed even with no traffic laws at all.

I actually would not. Sometimes I drive like a complete asshole, and if not for my fear of getting arrested I would do it far more often. Of that I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever.

It is not pure coincidence that most people tend to set their cruising speed at 10% above the posted speed limit.

 

[Airborneguy]

I like the talks about hipocracy and then the emotional posts to try and justify the revenue machine.

DUI laws are for victimless crimes.

You left a P out of hippo-cracy.

 

[spat]

A lot of people didn't survive just fine. Drunk driving deaths per person are way down over the past forty years.

I actually would not. Sometimes I drive like a complete asshole, and if not for my fear of getting arrested I would do it far more often. Of that I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever.

It is not pure coincidence that most people tend to set their cruising speed at 10% above the posted speed limit.

It never ceases to shock me when I run into people who say "I know what the right thing to do is, but if it weren't for the threat of incarceration I wouldn't do it"

As for the drop in drunk driving deaths, deaths due to car accidents of all types are way down, so that proves nothing. Cars are far safer, and emergency medicine routinely saves people who would never have had a chance compared to the 70's when the drunk driving crackdown began.

 

[spat]

A lot of people didn't survive just fine. Drunk driving deaths per person are way down over the past forty years.

I actually would not. Sometimes I drive like a complete asshole, and if not for my fear of getting arrested I would do it far more often. Of that I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever.

It is not pure coincidence that most people tend to set their cruising speed at 10% above the posted speed limit.

On another note, you are more afraid of the ticket, than I don’t know, dying in a car accident ?

 

[Truebeliever]

So, 40% chance.

i.e. more likely than not that they *aren't* impaired.

So, "probably" not impaired.

So, no probable cause.

There are a lot of things that would be *very* effective, but we don’t allow them because they are an anethema to freedom. This should be on that list.

The stop was for the illegal not using headlights. It’s telling the cop to look out for the DWI. Probable cause is the standard to arrest for DWI. It’s telling the cop to be suspicious of the possibility that it’s a DWI.

 

[Truebeliever]

IMO the current dui laws don’t go far enough. States are cracking down more all the time. Some of the penalties are brutal, and will be more brutal in the future. I love when a drunk driver gets pulled over.

that 40% stat mentioned above seems incredible. If it’s real it’s an absolute no brainer that cops should pull people over with lights off. Holy shit. I mean really 40% chance it’s a drunk who gets to spend time in jail that night? Catching criminals is rarely such a gimme.

The other reason of being suspicious of a car not having the headlights on is that the car is stolen. Often a new driver doesn’t know how to turn on the headlights and doesn’t want to remain on the scene of the crime to figure it out.

 

[spat]

The stop was for the illegal not using headlights. It’s telling the cop to look out for the DWI. Probable cause is the standard to arrest for DWI. It’s telling the cop to be suspicious of the possibility that it’s a DWI.

I am well aware of how this "escalation procedure" works.

I know it gets you guys a lot of arrests that would otherwise be missed.

I know that the majority of those people really are "bad guys".

I am still not a fan.

 

[Truebeliever]

It never ceases to shock me when I run into people who say "I know what the right thing to do is, but if it weren't for the threat of incarceration I wouldn't do it"

As for the drop in drunk driving deaths, deaths due to car accidents of all types are way down, so that proves nothing. Cars are far safer, and emergency medicine routinely saves people who would never have had a chance compared to the 70's when the drunk driving crackdown began.

Yes, but drunk driving collisions are down too. This includes pedestrians who are killed by drunk drivers. The numbers of 1990s reflect this trend . It was a time period before collision mitigation tech was widely available.

 

[spat]

All this discussion has just further convinced me that the only reason these tickets aren't just mailed to the registered owner like a red light camera is because the stop is intended to facilitate a further search.

All the defenses seem to be along the lines of "yea, but sometimes we find bad guys with those searches, so it's all good".

I get the impression that you would all be quite pleased with the idea of bringing back writs of assistance.

 

[spat]

Yes, but drunk driving collisions are down too. This includes pedestrians who are killed by drunk drivers. The numbers of 1990s reflect this trend . It was a time period before collision mitigation tech was widely available.

There are many factors that affect the rate of collisions. Did the non DWI rates drop at the same time ?

 

[Truebeliever]

I am well aware of how this "escalation procedure" works.

I know it gets you guys a lot of arrests that would otherwise be missed.

I know that the majority of those people really are "bad guys".

I am still not a fan.

It’s how the majority of bad guys are caught. They do the big crimes without a second thought, so they can’t help from doing the small crimes. It’s also done for officer safety. It’s good to know what is in front of the officer. I have stopped quite a number of people wanted for serious crimes on simple stops that someone would normally get a ticket. And what you should know is that in NYS if the equipment violation is fixed within 24 hours, you don’t have to pay the ticket. It’s a reason why many cops go after equipment violations. It gives that number they want , and working people don’t have to pay the fine if they get it fix.

 

[Truebeliever]

There are many factors that affect the rate of collisions. Did the non DWI rates drop at the same time ?

Yep. Every place DWI laws were beefed up in the 1980’s, the rate of DWI collisions went down.
Same in NYS with suspended licenses. When people were getting arrested after having their license suspended, accidents went down. Before the policy change, it was just another ticket. There were accidents where the driver involved had their license suspended more than 100 times but kept driving.

 

[spat]

It’s how the majority of bad guys are caught. They do the big crimes without a second thought, so they can’t help from doing the small crimes. It’s also done for officer safety. It’s good to know what is in front of the officer. I have stopped quite a number of people wanted for serious crimes on simple stops that someone would normally get a ticket. And what you should know is that in NYS if the equipment violation is fixed within 24 hours, you don’t have to pay the ticket. It’s a reason why many cops go after equipment violations. It gives that number they want , and working people don’t have to pay the fine if they get it fix.

You know what's even safer ?

Mailing them a ticket.

I honestly don't care how effective this is.

Writs of assistance were *very* effective. We fought a war to eliminate them.

 

[Darth]

This victimless thing that people on this form love to throw out. My opinion it's a garbage argument. I also wonder how many people would still think it's victimless when their family their children are murdered by drunk drivers. yeah that's right I just put feelings and emotions into the argument

Sandy Hook.

 

[spat]

Yep. Every place DWI laws were beefed up in the 1980’s, the rate of DWI collisions went down.
Same in NYS with suspended licenses. When people were getting arrested after having their license suspended, accidents went down. Before the policy change, it was just another ticket. There were accidents where the driver involved had their license suspended more than 100 times but kept driving.

It’s almost like requiring the license at all is just a waste of everyone's time.

Imagine how much less crime there would be if they spent as many resources on burglary and "real" crime as they do on traffic tickets.

You guys just practice catch and release now for everything that isn’t catastrophic anyway. You can't convince me that stopping some of that is going to cause the breakdown of society.

Anything less than "the breakdown of society" is not worth the loss of freedom. We literally fought several wars over this.

 

[Darth]

Once they harm someone else, it's not victimless anymore.

There is no "victimless" crime that causes anyone any harm, *by definition*.

So, it's not a matter of being emotional. It's a matter of changing the subject mid argument.

It's conflating arguments. You'll notice they always do this with weak positions.

Drugs should be legal.

BUT WHAT ABOUT WHEN THEY DO DRUGS AND *insert unrelated thing for which we already have laws* hmmmmmmmm!?

It always happens like this.

 

[Darth]

A better "gotcha" argument would be "can you shoot a gun into a crowd of people, as long as you don't hit anyone. No victim right!?"

No, that's not the case. And when you understand why, then that's an honest discussion we can have.

 

[Airborneguy]

It’s almost like requiring the license at all is just a waste of everyone's time.

Imagine how much less crime there would be if they spent as many resources on burglary and "real" crime as they do on traffic tickets.

You guys just practice catch and release now for everything that isn’t catastrophic anyway. You can't convince me that stopping some of that is going to cause the breakdown of society.

Anything less than "the breakdown of society" is not worth the loss of freedom. We literally fought several wars over this.

Look how "catch and release" is working out in democrat cities nationwide. In the end, you are advocating for increased crime. Maybe not directly, but there's plenty of data backing the issues being discussed here which prove crime rises when enforcement drops.

Most people don't advocate for mayhem or see totalitarianism in every single law.

 

[Vapor]

My personal experience with State police is that it's invitation for papers, who are, where have you been, where are going, looking around in the car with a flash light, etc.

My experience with local police is non- exsiststant because in the 5-7 times I've ever been pulled over in my entire life it was by a state trooper. Usually for said headlight, liscence plate light, etc.

I've never ever been pulled over by a broome county sheriff. Keep in mind I pass one almost everyday for the past 10 years.

 

[Airborneguy]

 

[Truebeliever]

You know what's even safer ?

Mailing them a ticket.

I honestly don't care how effective this is.

Writs of assistance were *very* effective. We fought a war to eliminate them.

How are you going to mail a ticket without proving who the driver was? License plate only tells who the owner is or was. The driver is responsible for the condition of the car while they are driving it. How do you know the plates belong to that car if you don’t stop to check the registration? Just take the plate off of a similar car and drive to your hearts content . It’s how people are beating the speed cameras and tolls around here .
Or just cover the plate with a bike rack or something .

 

[Blimey]

It never ceases to shock me when I run into people who say "I know what the right thing to do is, but if it weren't for the threat of incarceration I wouldn't do it"

Then I'm surprised given your experience with people needing laws to guide their behavior that you support abolishing dui laws.

 

[spat]

Look how "catch and release" is working out in democrat cities nationwide. In the end, you are advocating for increased crime. Maybe not directly, but there's plenty of data backing the issues being discussed here which prove crime rises when enforcement drops.

Most people don't advocate for mayhem or see totalitarianism in every single law.

Catch and release is a disaster. It breeds contempt for the law and undermines the enforcement of every other law.

Decriminalization does not do that.

All I have advocted for in this thread is mailing the tickets instead of pulling people over unless they are an obvious danger (not merely a suspicion that they might be dangerous).

Obviously crime is going to ris when enforcement drops. That isn't the question. The question is how much freedom are you willing to sacrifice for a marginal decrease in petty crime.

Of course decriminalization causes crime to drop by definition. If the criminal justice system were run the way I want crime would drop by 70% literally overnight.

What we have now is a nearly uncountable number of laws that are all at best barely enforced.

What I want is a very small number of laws that are very aggressively enforced.

My way will lead to a very low crime rate.

When you have a ton of laws and people know they can get away with breaking them 99% of the time, and will get a slap on the wrist if they do get caught? what do you think will happen ?

If on the other hand you have just a few, but people know they're probably going to get caught, and will face severe penalties if they are, you get the opposite effect.


The vast majority of the "real" crime is caused by a small % of people that we just keep putting back on the street. The answer isn't to criminalize more and more stuff to provide more ways to arrest them.

The answer is to keep them locked up so they can't commit another crime.

 

[spat]

How are you going to mail a ticket without proving who the driver was? License plate only tells who the owner is or was. The driver is responsible for the condition of the car while they are driving it. How do you know the plates belong to that car if you don’t stop to check the registration? Just take the plate off of a similar car and drive to your hearts content . It’s how people are beating the speed cameras and tolls around here .
Or just cover the plate with a bike rack or something .

They do it for running red lights, so it's a solved problem. Ask those guys.