Armed bounty hunters enter home in Buffalo with police and no warrant

[Toecutter]

Question is was this the fugitives property? I can't find NY specific but general rule is they can enter the fugitives property only.

This also seems to be illegal in NY , along with carrying an illegal "assault rifle" from out of state.
"One of the bounty hunters wore a jacket with the logo "United States Fugitive Task Force" on the back that also sported a shield emblem resembling a police badge or shield, according to the lawsuit."

Hopefully his lawyer can get this guy some money for his traumatic experience.

 

[Chevusa]

To your point, we dont have all the info. But I take issue with how this was handled regardless. Id be curious to find out if this was his residence or not. If not, these wannabe cops need to be charged appropriately.

"They may pursue him into another State; may arrest him on the Sabbath; and, if necessary, may break and enter his house for that purpose."

The Famous Bounty Hunter Law Taylor vs Taintor

www.tennesseefta.com

You are quoting Tennessee “law”. You and I are not lawyers. Please don’t try to apply your google law degree to these matters. Even if you find something specific to NY you
Don’t know how it applies and what’s behind it. All you can read are the words. You don’t possess the knowledge to know what they mean in terms of applying them lawfully. That’s why we pay lawyers. Otherwise you could just google it and have your answer. Laws are written in lawyer not English. Just because you think you know what you read doesn’t mean you actually do.

 

[Celt]

Question is was this the fugitives property? I can't find NY specific but general rule is they can enter the fugitives property only.

This also seems to be illegal in NY , along with carrying an illegal "assault rifle" from out of state.
"One of the bounty hunters wore a jacket with the logo "United States Fugitive Task Force" on the back that also sported a shield emblem resembling a police badge or shield, according to the lawsuit."

Hopefully his lawyer can get this guy some money for his traumatic experience.

Wearing any logos badge or Shield that resembles a government issued type of identification is certainly illegal. That I know for certain.

 

[Celt]

You are quoting Tennessee “law”. You and I are not lawyers. Please don’t try to apply your google law degree to these matters. Even if you find something specific to NY you
Don’t know how it applies and what’s behind it. All you can read are the words. You don’t possess the knowledge to know what they mean in terms of applying them lawfully. That’s why we pay lawyers. Otherwise you could just google it and have your answer. Laws are written in lawyer not English. Just because you think you know what you read doesn’t mean you actually do.

Its on a Tenn website but its quoting the 1872 SC ruling. And while IANAL, I did stay at the holiday in. But seriously, I do understand legalese and the process quite well as I spent years interpretting and assisting those who litigate, on top of a degree in criminal justice, but I am far from a lawyer.

My quick duckduck go searches are not to "litigate" with a security guard on the internet, but simply to gain a slightly better understanding "in general" for the purpose of discussion.

 

[Chevusa]

Question is was this the fugitives property? I can't find NY specific but general rule is they can enter the fugitives property only.

This also seems to be illegal in NY , along with carrying an illegal "assault rifle" from out of state.
"One of the bounty hunters wore a jacket with the logo "United States Fugitive Task Force" on the back that also sported a shield emblem resembling a police badge or shield, according to the lawsuit."

Hopefully his lawyer can get this guy some money for his traumatic experience.

lol not gonna happen. I’m sure there’s an exemption for him to have his firearm on official business. Even if not it doesn’t mean it has to be enforced. Like it or not. It’s no different than yep he was speeding but I’m not giving him a ticket.

 

[Chevusa]

Wearing any logos badge or Shield that resembles a government issued type of identification is certainly illegal. That I know for certain.

Cite the law specific to their home state in which the official uniforms were issued. This isn’t a homemade badge we’re talking about here. It’s an official issued uniform by. A licensed bail agency.

 

[Robin]

If they truly believed their quarry was holed up in that house, go to the cops, let them present the evidence on hand to a judge and see if the judge will issue a search warrant based on that evidence.
Guys with guns at my door in the middle of the night? Not going to end well.
Robby

 

[Toecutter]

lol not gonna happen. I’m sure there’s an exemption for him to have his firearm on official business. Even if not it doesn’t mean it has to be enforced. Like it or not. It’s no different than yep he was speeding but I’m not giving him a ticket.

Yup cause the system is corrupt to his core all designed to tear your rights apart. Either way this is not for us to decide.

 

[Robin]

Oh yeah. Those cops should be ashamed of themselves and someone in authority should review their employability.
Robin

 

[Toecutter]

If they truly believed their quarry was holed up in that house, go to the cops, let them present the evidence on hand to a judge and see if the judge will issue a search warrant based on that evidence.
Guys with guns at my door in the middle of the night? Not going to end well.
Robby

Technically I don't think a BH can get a warrant. I agree unidentified people kicking in my door at night will not be met with any pleasantries.

 

[Toecutter]

Oh yeah. Those cops should be ashamed of themselves and someone in authority should review their employability.
Robin

They won't that will be admitting the city did something wrong they are undoubtedly preparing for the lawsuit.

 

[Chevusa]

Yup cause the system is corrupt to his core all designed to tear your rights apart. Either way this is not for us to decide.

Agree. Guy had a legitimate purpose to have the rifle. We do also. It’s just that he’s gonna get the professional courtesy here because his need to have it for work outweighs our desire to have it because we want to. Not saying it’s right but just the way it is.

 

[Toecutter]

Some may call it a mudroom , I call it my kill box. Once your trapped in there won't be a good time.

 

[Chevusa]

This may apply to them. Not sure how their home state classifies them.


11. Possession of a firearm or large capacity ammunition feeding
device by a police officer or sworn peace officer of another state while
conducting official business within the state of New York.

 

[Celt]

Cite the law specific to their home state in which the official uniforms were issued. This isn’t a homemade badge we’re talking about here. It’s an official issued uniform by. A licensed bail agency.

Lol, now you're asking me to cite something, should I deflect and start an argument with somebody else like you did with me about the four-wheel-drive statement you made?

With that said, identification is allowed, but the intent is to not have it confused with a gov agent, and the type of identification needs to be approved by the state.

NYS Division of Licensing Services

 

[drowhawk]

This is how that conversation would go at my house after you've woken me from a sound sleep:

"Open it up, or we'll kick it in."

"Don't threaten me with a good time, asshole."


When it's them, it's a "long gun." When it's you and I, it's an "assault rifle." Like that?

 

[Saltwater60]

This is really simple guys.

Bounty hunters, on the other hand, are usually required to not only track a criminal fugitive, but also apprehend them. ... Generally, depending on the individual state's laws, a bounty hunter can enter the fugitive's private property without a warrant in order to take the person back into custody.

From a federal standpoint, bounty hunters do not require a warrant to enter private property. This is based on a Supreme Court ruling dating back to 1872 that essentially gives these agents authority to make arrests with few restrictions

The law is all well and good but I have the right by law to defend my home against armed invaders as well.
The article is missing a few details of course. This was laid on lit in the article on what BH are allowed to do and not allowed to do. We don’t know if this was the fugitives residence and we don’t know if the fugitive ever visited the home. However I even if he visited how does that give them the right to do this. I get if it was listed as his residence upon release but then I had better have to sign for and agree to housing said fugitive before you can just burst into my home.
I just had a guy come in and make me some counter tops. I dont know if he has a warrant and skipped on it. Since he visited it does not give bounty hunters the right to bust in my home at gun point tonight and tear my house apart to look for the counter top guy.

Bottom line this is wrong either way and if bounty hunters can come in without a warrant fine but why did the cops follow? Sorry warrantless search and pay me for my distress. They painted a fucking gun at his pregnant wife and child. Clearly they were not the man they were looking for.

 

[Celt]

It’s just that he’s gonna get the professional courtesy here because his need to have it for work outweighs our desire to have it because we want to. Not saying it’s right but just the way it is.

Not to pick on you, but this statement says alot about your thought process. You say this bounty hunter NEEDS a rifle for work, and thats MORE important than a US Citizens DESIRE (its a RIGHT) to have the same tool.

The RIGHT of a citizen outweighs everything else. Thats what this country was founded on.

 

[Toecutter]

The law is all well and good but I have the right by law to defend my home against armed invaders as well.
The article is missing a few details of course. This was laid on lit in the article on what BH are allowed to do and not allowed to do. We don’t know if this was the fugitives residence and we don’t know if the fugitive ever visited the home. However I even if he visited how does that give them the right to do this. I get if it was listed as his residence upon release but then I had better have to sign for and agree to housing said fugitive before you can just burst into my home.
I just had a guy come in and make me some counter tops. I dont know if he has a warrant and skipped on it. Since he visited it does not give bounty hunters the right to bust in my home at gun point tonight and tear my house apart to look for the counter top guy.

Bottom line this is wrong either way and if bounty hunters can come in without a warrant fine but why did the cops follow? Sorry warrantless search and pay me for my distress. They painted a fucking gun at his pregnant wife and child. Clearly they were not the man they were looking for.

I don't know what specifically NYS law says but there is a difference between the person's "residence" and "property" in general It seems BH can enter the person's "property" .

 

[Celt]

I don't know what specifically NYS law says but there is a difference between the person's "residence" and "property" in general It seems BH can enter the person's "property" .

Yes, and I thought the same exact thing. A residence does not constitute property, but we would need to see case law on how this has been applied.

 

[Chevusa]

Lol, now you're asking me to cite something, should I deflect and start an argument with somebody else like you did with me about the four-wheel-drive statement you made?

With that said, identification is allowed, but the intent is to not have it confused with a gov agent, and the type of identification needs to be approved by the state.

View attachment 106289 View attachment 106290

NYS Division of Licensing Services

That’s NY. Thought they were from out of state? If not do you have special knowledge that they weren’t approved by NY?

 

[Chevusa]

I don't know what specifically NYS law says but there is a difference between the person's "residence" and "property" in general It seems BH can enter the person's "property" .

Needs to specifically be named in the law. Some laws may differentiate and some may not. That’s why I say you can’t get your law degree from google. They may differentiate in trespass law but not bounty agent laws. Because Supreme Court has ruled they do not need a warrant that is likely the determination they are lawfully acting on. Again more wheel spinning. We should open the next thread on how to build a rocket ship and we can all argue that it’s the way or not the way to do it when in fact none of us actually know and are all just making jackasses out of ourselves.

 

[Chevusa]

The law is all well and good but I have the right by law to defend my home against armed invaders as well.
The article is missing a few details of course. This was laid on lit in the article on what BH are allowed to do and not allowed to do. We don’t know if this was the fugitives residence and we don’t know if the fugitive ever visited the home. However I even if he visited how does that give them the right to do this. I get if it was listed as his residence upon release but then I had better have to sign for and agree to housing said fugitive before you can just burst into my home.
I just had a guy come in and make me some counter tops. I dont know if he has a warrant and skipped on it. Since he visited it does not give bounty hunters the right to bust in my home at gun point tonight and tear my house apart to look for the counter top guy.

Bottom line this is wrong either way and if bounty hunters can come in without a warrant fine but why did the cops follow? Sorry warrantless search and pay me for my distress. They painted a fucking gun at his pregnant wife and child. Clearly they were not the man they were looking for.

They aren’t intruders if they are there acting lawfully. Full stop. At that point you are interfering with a lawful operation. To be trespassing they need to “enter or remain unlawfully”. That is exactly as ny law prescribes. Because they are not entering unlawfully per Supreme Court orders you have no standing to take action to remove them.

 

[Celt]

That’s NY. Thought they were from out of state? If not do you have special knowledge that they weren’t approved by NY?

That is NY, and per the article Ill assume they were from PA. So, it could be legal there,(although I know its illegal in several states, but Im not sure about all states) and I should qualify my statement I made where I said I was "certain" that my knowledge was specific to NYS.

On a side note, years ago a guy I met played a joke on a co worker that he was an immigration officer and he had to take a guy into custody because his visa had been revoked. Afterwards i inspected his shield and it said Bail Enforcement Agent. I asked him about it and he said he paid a guy for a class (that he didnt have to attend) to get a cert and the shield. I researched this back then because I had considered that or PI work as a side gig, and thats when I found out it was illegal to have that kind of identification. Turns out the guy giving out the certs and the shields (which looked exactly like NYPD detective shields) got busted.

‘BOGUS BADGE’ BOUNTY HUNTERS BUSTED

Two operators of a bounty-hunter training school were busted yesterday for doling out phony badges to students, many of whom have lengthy rap sheets and used the credentials in carrying out violent…

nypost.com

 

[Celt]

They aren’t intruders if they are there acting lawfully. Full stop. At that point you are interfering with a lawful operation. To be trespassing they need to “enter or remain unlawfully”. That is exactly as ny law prescribes. Because they are not entering unlawfully per Supreme Court orders you have no standing to take action to remove them.

Heres the sticky part, if they dont identify themselves how would an armed citizen know they were acting lawfully? Regardless, its a shitty situation because as an armed citizen in NY you can count on being screwed, even if you are justified.

As a side thought, if you have a family member or friend that is potential trouble, you should be aware that unexpected banging on the door is more likely, and you should prepare accordingly.

Its a good idea to have "fire drills" with your family for all types of emergencies.

 

[Chevusa]

Heres the sticky part, if they dont identify themselves how would an armed citizen know they were acting lawfully? Regardless, its a shitty situation because as an armed citizen in NY you can count on being screwed, even if you are justified.

What makes you think they didn’t identify? They were banging on the door weren’t they? I would take with a grain of salt statements made by the homeowners who are trying to file suit and get a payday. Even if they didn’t identify it doesn’t magically strip their lawful right to be there.

 

[Chevusa]

That is NY, and per the article Ill assume they were from PA. So, it could be legal there,(although I know its illegal in several states, but Im not sure about all states) and I should qualify my statement I made where I said I was "certain" that my knowledge was specific to NYS.

On a side note, years ago a guy I met played a joke on a co worker that he was an immigration officer and he had to take a guy into custody because his visa had been revoked. Afterwards i inspected his shield and it said Bail Enforcement Agent. I asked him about it and he said he paid a guy for a class (that he didnt have to attend) to get a cert and the shield. I researched this back then because I had considered that or PI work as a side gig, and thats when I found out it was illegal to have that kind of identification. Turns out the guy giving out the certs and the shields (which looked exactly like NYPD detective shields) got busted.

‘BOGUS BADGE’ BOUNTY HUNTERS BUSTED

Two operators of a bounty-hunter training school were busted yesterday for doling out phony badges to students, many of whom have lengthy rap sheets and used the credentials in carrying out violent…

nypost.com

Thanks for clarifying. Sounds like the guy was an idiot for plying a joke like that. Doesn’t have anything to do with an actual licensed agent though.

Along the same lines and not related to this story I saw how a YouTube prankster was arrested for dressing like a cop and telling a lady she was getting g a ticket. He was then going to give her concert tickets or something butshe didn’t think it was funny and he was charged.

 

[spat]

What makes you think the family isn’t lying and the criminal just happened to not be there at the time? What makes you think he didn’t just leave? Was tipped off? Went out the back? You are the one making accusations and therefore up to you to show how the set and legal process is being violated.

It’s funny how this whole thread was just derailed by a quick search revealing that it was lawful and no warrant was needed. All of the “I would have shot!” Comments now looking incredibly stupid. That would only end with you going bye bye for a very long time as their presence and entry (if they even entered) is all lawful. Yes they take risks but it is a dangerous job they have accepted. They know the risks. That’s why they hit when it is not expected.

Just because their presence was lawful (and we haven't established that it was) doesn't mean the homeowner wasn't justified in shooting them once they kicked down the front door.

The homeowner could have killed both of them and walked free (with a good lawyer).

Society would have been better for it.

 

[Chevusa]

Just because their presence was lawful (and we haven't established that it was) doesn't mean the homeowner wasn't justified in shooting them once they kicked down the front door.

The homeowner could have killed both of them and walked free (with a good lawyer).

Society would have been better for it.

Not so. We know it was lawful because of the cited laws and SC rulings.
Article 35 does not give you permission to kill anyone. It only offers defenses. There is no defense to resisting a lawful action. Full stop. I am speaking from a position of authority and direct knowledge here. Not google searches and interpreting it how I think it reads. I heard it right from instructors and top lawyers mouths and was tested on it where I scored 100%.

 

[spat]

Technically I don't think a BH can get a warrant. I agree unidentified people kicking in my door at night will not be met with any pleasantries.

If these guys were after a bail jumper there would already be a warrant out for his arrest.

They would need to establish probable cause that he was in that house, and then the cops *should* go get him.

But they'd rather play cowboy, and not enough of them get shot doing it for them to stop.