republicans-pass-budget-resolution tax cuts overtime pay

GOPerfect said:

Medicare is one of the top five programs filled with fraud. Like most programs, the idea was sound when it was created, now... a bloated money laundering scheme. Medicare should offer services needed using common sense.

I read a story out of Oregon not too long back. 89 year old man was able to get a kidney transplant at a cost to Medicare nearing 800k. He died of other natural causes less than 4 months later.

Should have never been allowed to get a Medicare paid transplant. That is abuse.

They should be set procedures and set prices of what can be billed and what will be paid.

Far touch waste and abuse.

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If Medicare won't pay out for services I want them to pay out when I'm 65, then don't tax me. If you're not providing a service to me, then it's theft of my money. So it's a two way street. "Give us your money for a program where you have no choice what we will cover, and you can't opt out of paying the tax, and we'll screw you when you want to use it." Soudns like a raw deal to me.

I don't pay my insurance company to not pay out. I pay them because I know what they cover and don't, and I intend to be on the side of that arrangement that benefits me. Otherwise I'd choose a different plan and not give them my money.

libertysnake said:

If Medicare won't pay out for services I want them to pay out when I'm 65, then don't tax me. If you're not providing a service to me, then it's theft of my money. So it's a two way street. "Give us your money for a program where you have no choice what we will cover, and you can't opt out of paying the tax, and we'll screw you when you want to use it." Soudns like a raw deal to me.

I don't pay my insurance company to not pay out. I pay them because I know what they cover and don't, and I intend to be on the side of that arrangement that benefits me. Otherwise I'd choose a different plan and not give them my money.

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So, you think there should be no limit at all?

100 year old mam should get a heart transplant that will cost over a million?

There needs to be limits on all of these programs.

holdover said:

why would employers pay out less OT ? It doesn't cost them any more than they already pay. Its just going to a different place, the people that worked for it .

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Exactly what the payroll manager at my job said. He has no idea where people got the idea how no tax on overtime will cut the OT. The company still has to pay it out, now all of goes to the employee and not half to the government.

Being an employee is not paid salary, tips, or overtime... these cuts have no effect on me what-so-ever. However, I am happy to see fellow working class citizens get to keep more of their hard earned money. So that's my positive from this

dsdmmat said:

That is the plan. Raise enough money from tariffs so you don’t have to tax your citizens.

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Tariffs are paid by companies on the US side of the border not the country from which they came. The idea behind them is to lower sales of foreign products by making them too expensive. Not a good strategy for raising income to replace taxes.

dsdmmat said:

That is the plan. Raise enough money from tariffs so you don’t have to tax your citizens.

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So taxes, but in a different form.

Tariffs aren't magical money from someone else. The importer pays the tarrifs. They pass that on.

So let's use some round numbers for easy calculations.

Let's say today I import a t-shirt for $10, and my other costs (employees, building, etc.) cost me another $10 and I sell it for $35, netting me $15 in profit.

Now let's say there is a 50% tarrif. I pay the importer $10, the government $5 in tariff, other costs stay the same so $10. If I sold that shirt for $35 I'd only make $10 on the sale. I can't do that so now that $35 shirt is $40 so I still make the same $15 in profit. Sure you aren't paying taxes, but the price of the goods went up.

GOPerfect said:

Medicare is one of the top five programs filled with fraud. Like most programs, the idea was sound when it was created, now... a bloated money laundering scheme. Medicare should offer services needed using common sense.

I read a story out of Oregon not too long back. 89 year old man was able to get a kidney transplant at a cost to Medicare nearing 800k. He died of other natural causes less than 4 months later.

Should have never been allowed to get a Medicare paid transplant. That is abuse.

They should be set procedures and set prices of what can be billed and what will be paid.

Far touch waste and abuse.

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Then this is what needs to be fixed not the program stopped or cut. I guess you could call it cut if we stop this. The problem is doctors and how all the paperwork is all filled out. You should have seen the crazy tests and crap they did to my grandpa while he was dying of congestive heart failure at 84 years old. No way he was coming out of it. I agree this needs to stop so the program becomes viable but people still need to get the coverage they were promised when the money was stolen from them.

I would rather be in a position to pay into Medicare/Medicaid than be in a position where I was receiving it as my only option. Think about that for a minute, you heartless heathen bastids.

SonOfSun said:

So taxes, but in a different form.

Tariffs aren't magical money from someone else. The importer pays the tarrifs. They pass that on.

So let's use some round numbers for easy calculations.

Let's say today I import a t-shirt for $10, and my other costs (employees, building, etc.) cost me another $10 and I sell it for $35, netting me $15 in profit.

Now let's say there is a 50% tarrif. I pay the importer $10, the government $5 in tariff, other costs stay the same so $10. If I sold that shirt for $35 I'd only make $10 on the sale. I can't do that so now that $35 shirt is $40 so I still make the same $15 in profit. Sure you aren't paying taxes, but the price of the goods went up.

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So you’re still paying taxes it’s just not called a tax. I agree with you BTW on this and that’s exactly what will happen. However it might even be worse than what you claim. Take cars for example where many of the parts are foreign so you pay a 25% tariff on an alternator, the bolts, wires, and wiring harness. Well now that comes to the USA to be built into an assembly and is then sent to Mexico or Canada to be assembled into the motor and is then shipped back to the USA and tariffed or taxed again. Then this entire assembly goes to Canada or Mexico for full assembly as a drivable vehicle then that vehicle returns to the USA being taxed or having tariffs placed on it again. I’m not saying my depiction of parts movements is accurate but an example of how this could get compounded and be more complicated than a shirt.
There are times items come in and out of the country and tariffs are placed on them multiple times. Vehicles are a great example of that. By me there is the ford stamping plant and GM engine plant. Many of those components and raw materials are all foreign and tariffs place on them at entry then they leave the USA for assembly. Many fords and GMs are assembled in Canada or Mexico then returned to the USA as a fully drivable vehicle where tariffs are placed on them again.

libertysnake said:

If Medicare won't pay out for services I want them to pay out when I'm 65, then don't tax me. If you're not providing a service to me, then it's theft of my money. So it's a two way street. "Give us your money for a program where you have no choice what we will cover, and you can't opt out of paying the tax, and we'll screw you when you want to use it." Soudns like a raw deal to me.

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So you’re saying that any taxpayer should be able to grab a tank, an F-16, Blackhawk and anything else they wish to possess because it was paid for with your taxes, and you should be able to use it whenever you want?

Ok, I could get down with that. But I call dibs on all the airplanes. You mouth breathers can have all the tanks and trucks.

Saltwater60 said:

So you’re still paying taxes it’s just not called a tax. I agree with you BTW on this and that’s exactly what will happen. However it might even be worse than what you claim. Take cars for example where many of the parts are foreign so you pay a 25% tariff on an alternator, the bolts, wires, and wiring harness. Well now that comes to the USA to be built into an assembly and is then sent to Mexico or Canada to be assembled into the motor and is then shipped back to the USA and tariffed or taxed again. Then this entire assembly goes to Canada or Mexico for full assembly as a drivable vehicle then that vehicle returns to the USA being taxed or having tariffs placed on it again. I’m not saying my depiction of parts movements is accurate but an example of how this could get compounded and be more complicated than a shirt.
There are times items come in and out of the country and tariffs are placed on them multiple times. Vehicles are a great example of that. By me there is the ford stamping plant and GM engine plant. Many of those components and raw materials are all foreign and tariffs place on them at entry then they leave the USA for assembly. Many fords and GMs are assembled in Canada or Mexico then returned to the USA as a fully drivable vehicle where tariffs are placed on them again.

https://www.cars.com/amp/articles/which-proposed-tariffs-could-affect-your-next-car-504472/

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Yes it absolutely can be more complicated, just like you mentioned. It can also be a lot worse with multiple crossings. I used a shirt example with nice round numbers to make the illustration easier.

My main point was: Tariffs aren't some magic bullet that uses mystery money to magically get rid of taxes without other parts of the equation being changed as well. Tariffs get passed on to the consumer and increase the price of goods.

Tariffs aren't always bad, they can be useful in evening out unfair trade. To put it in terms people here can relate to: tariffs are like a gun. A gun isn't good or bad in and of itself, but you can use a gun to do both bad or good things. It's just a tool. Tariffs are just a tool, and like any tool if you use it recklessly you will get hurt.

SonOfSun said:

So taxes, but in a different form.

Tariffs aren't magical money from someone else. The importer pays the tarrifs. They pass that on.

So let's use some round numbers for easy calculations.

Let's say today I import a t-shirt for $10, and my other costs (employees, building, etc.) cost me another $10 and I sell it for $35, netting me $15 in profit.

Now let's say there is a 50% tarrif. I pay the importer $10, the government $5 in tariff, other costs stay the same so $10. If I sold that shirt for $35 I'd only make $10 on the sale. I can't do that so now that $35 shirt is $40 so I still make the same $15 in profit. Sure you aren't paying taxes, but the price of the goods went up.

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You're absolutely right... instead of income taxes, we'd be paying consumption taxes. That said, IMO, consumption taxes might be more fair. Hear me out:

Income taxes are supposedly progressive, meaning everyone pays equal share on each portion of income they qualify for. So, just using made-up numbers, everyone pays 10% on their first $50k, 15% on 50k-100k, 20% on 100k-200k, etc. This is inherently fair. But, that's not how our income tax actually works. Credits and deductions phase out as income rises, meaning that a higher earner will pay a higher rate on the first few brackets of their income. Then, on the backside, ultra-high earners don't earn wages, they earn interest, which is taxed at lower capital gains rates.

What does this reality amount to? The middle class paying the highest tax rates.

Consumption taxes, on the other hand, are applied equally across the board. You pay taxes on what you buy, not what you earn. So, poor people who buy less, pay less in taxes. Ultra-wealthy people buy more, and pay more.

It's not perfect, but no perfect system exists. It is much more fair than our current "progressive-but-not-really" income tax.

I've heard since I started paying attention to "Survival" and with it prepping for the coming economic failure, ie the collapse of the American Dollar. We have seen doom & gloom, record high and dirt low interest rates, Gold go from $375 and ounce in the 80's to $3K today, our national debt is an unfathomable number to so many that it becomes dismissive. If we do not get a hold of our spending, it will have to collapse, there just isn't any way around it. Getting that spending under control is going to require hard looks at where the money is being bled off and a tourniquet placed on it. We're going to have to cut the shit out of Federal Employment, and for god's sake quit borrowing money to give away to other Countries! Stop paying for the World's defense, and cut out the unaccountable Military Industrial spending.
The macro-economics are Tetris levels above my head and all but a fraction of the populace, so they're going to cut and expose under the guise of eliminating waste, fraud, and abuse, which is noble enough to suffice, but the real truth that few can handle is the end is very near if we don't put a stop to the bullshit.

GOPerfect said:

Both programs are filled with waste, fraud and a lot of abuse


Medicaid is an easy scam for the poor and the illegals.

As for Medicare, to many, above what is needed, things are covered.

Cut the programs by at least 1/3.

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I agree that Medicaid should be exclusively for American citizens, but cannot agree that it is a “scam for the poor and illegals”.

I’ve been poor. Hell I’ve worked my entire life and there have been years where I struggled to keep myself afloat and pay for my family just to have the essentials. Some years have been better than others.

I don’t look down on ANY American who is poor which is why I think Medicaid is 100% necessary as a safety net. You have no idea how close the majority of us truly are to being “poor” if a crisis were ever to happen to you or your family.

If that has never been the experience for you or your family, I’m happy for you and hope you consider yourself as blessed. I can’t agree with you on this because that has not been my experience, respectfully.

rushmore said:

I agree that Medicaid should be exclusively for American citizens, but cannot agree that it is a “scam for the poor and illegals”.

I’ve been poor. Hell I’ve worked my entire life and there have been years where I struggled to keep myself afloat and pay for my family just to have the essentials. Some years have been better than others.

I don’t look down on ANY American who is poor which is why I think Medicaid is 100% necessary as a safety net. You have no idea how close the majority of us truly are to being “poor” if a crisis were ever to happen to you or your family.

If that has never been the experience for you or your family, I’m happy for you and hope you consider yourself as blessed. I can’t agree with you on this because that has not been my experience, respectfully.

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This is in no way to be disparaging toward you or any other person reading this. I have in fact been poor. I grew up poor. My parents barely made enough to get by for many years. Not once did they go on any type of government assistance. They were far to proud to do that, as am I. I do get VA disability payments, I do not not consider this to be government aid; some may see this as hypocrisy, I do not.

Since I was young, i knew poor. I decided at a very young age that I would never be poor again., My children would never know poor first hand. Not ever. I think if many of these programs did not exist, more Americans might actually be motivated to do all that needs to be done to satisfy life.

Medicaid is only one example. If I could fully implement things, there would be no free food stamps, no welfare, no subsidized housing, no free medical. It would all go away. Harsh? Maybe.

Hochulsucks1234 said:

We need to stop putting Medicaid and Medicare in the same sentence. Medicare, like SS, should not be cut. Those programs are for the people that worked and retired (well, SS disability should be cut for some). Medicaid is a whole different beast I would love see cut. There are people on Medicaid that dont pay a dime for medical expenses (or dental). They keep popping kids and we pay to take care of them. Hell they even pick people up for their free appointments. Medicaid should be a supplemental insurance where EVERYONE should be paying premiums and co-pays. Enough of this free, free, free shit.

I do agree though, raising the deficit really solves no problems. So much for cutting government spending....

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On average, 50 Billion dollars are wasted on Medicare per year. This is just waste. This does not include the fraud and the abuse of the system. Yes, Medicare needs some serious work.

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Hochulsucks1234 said:

Correct, there are a lot of working class on Medicaid. A lot of them have premiums and co-pays. You can thank Obamacare for creating this mess. I am focusing on the members of society that breed and do not work. Why do they have better health care than my family? They get free appointments. Now their nasty teeth can be taken care of, on us. No co-pays. The trash across from me is "disabled" and they come pick her up for her appointments. My sons asthma medication trippled, but the trash dont pay a dime. Makes me furious.

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I want to take some time to respond to this because you bring up a lot here.

1. We both agree that there are many working class who use Medicaid and that they pay premiums and co-pays. That is largely possible due to “Medicaid Expansion”. Prior to the expansion, only those who made almost nothing at all, ie non-working, could be on Medicaid. The expansion was specifically put in place to address the large amount of people who earned too much to qualify for traditional Medicaid, but still couldn’t afford the astronomical costs of private insurance or even some of the marketplace plans.

The Medicaid Expansion has been specifically mentioned as one of the places they would likely cut first. I hope that seems as assbackwards to you as it does to me. Cutting Medicaid for low income working people before non-working people…

2. You mentioned that you’re focusing on the “members of society that breed and don’t work”. There’s no requirement to have a job in this country before you have kids, and while I couldn’t agree more with you about how massively stupid and detrimental to society that is.. this is still a free country and the government cannot and should not ever have control over who can reproduce in this country.

3. You want to know why a members of society who have made poorer decisions than you and don’t work as hard as you do have “better” (or at least cheaper) health insurance than you do. That’s a fantastic question and it doesn’t get asked often enough. The reason that you don’t have free health insurance or “better” care isn’t because other families have it, it’s because the entire for profit health industry has become a bloated and greedy enterprise that is designed to extract the most amount of money from employers, and employees while giving crumbs back to doctors and service providers. They will take as much money as possible from you and pay out as little as possible because they have shareholders. It’s a broken system.

Medicaid has abuse, waste and fraud, I don’t deny that.. but it doesn’t have anywhere NEAR the amount of issues that private health insurance does.

The entire system needs to be overhauled to be something like a Medicare for All… in which a family like yours would ALWAYS have the option of receiving free or low cost quality medical care. The insurance companies are laughing their asses all the way to the bank because lower income families that work, like yours, like mine, are so focused on being angry about what other families or people get “for free”, that we are not focusing on the true cause of the problem, which IS private healthcare.

It is absolutely egregious that you’re paying triple for your son’s asthma medication. It’s flat out wrong. But being angry at the “trash” will not do anything for you or your son. If you want to be angry, look no further than your private insurance company.

fresch said:

How many on this forum have actively made savings/investment debt reduction more important than fun and games?
Now we see the problems across America on a personal responsibility level.
Add to that how a turd who didn't know what a disposal was is now in under 10 yrs. A millionaire, I worked since I was 14, and I am on a fixed income retired; I do have med/high 6 figure investments I could tap if needed but don't see it happening.

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This is so well said. Love you man!

In one form or another, I have been actively working on my retirement since I was 20 years old. I am too young right now to cash any in, but I have worked hard enough and long enough to have 3 retirement checks coming my way in a few years. I have a Roth IRA with a good and solid 6 figures in it. That will most likely be left to my kids. I do not think I will need it.

I have been buying silver and gold since 1993. A little here and a little there. Over the years, it has added up to quite a lot of metal. My last job, I made some seriously good money. I was lucky?, a lot of opportunity for Overtime. I banked on average, 25k per year for the 12 years that I was working there. I drove used vehicles most of the time. My cell phones were some of the least expensive I could get from Verizon. I have enjoyed my life, but not to deter my future. I am 55, retired at 54 and I do not think I will ever need to go back to work.

Yes, this is possible for ALL Americans.

GOPerfect said:

This is in no way to be disparaging toward you or any other person reading this. I have in fact been poor. I grew up poor. My parents barely made enough to get by for many years. Not once did they go on any type of government assistance. They were far to proud to do that, as am I. I do get VA disability payments, I do not not consider this to be government aid; some may see this as hypocrisy, I do not.

Since I was young, i knew poor. I decided at a very young age that I would never be poor again., My children would never know poor first hand. Not ever. I think if many of these programs did not exist, more Americans might actually be motivated to do all that needs to be done to satisfy life.

Medicaid is only one example. If I could fully implement things, there would be no free food stamps, no welfare, no subsidized housing, no free medical. It would all go away. Harsh? Maybe.

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I understand this point of view, and I while I don’t personally agree with it, I can understand the “WHY” behind it and I think it comes from an admirable, American “pick yourself up by your bootstraps” mindset that we should all aim for. I agree that if every one had the same mindset, then we would see a huge reduction in how often these services are utilized. Unfortunately there are freeloaders and people more than happy to milk the system for all they can, but I don’t agree that because of that, we should completely get rid of the system.

I believe that healthcare, food, and shelter are basic rights, and while it definitely isn’t the governments job to provide for those who ARE able provide for themselves… I don’t agree that America should ever be a place where lawful citizens in genuine need are left to fend for themselves if they have no other options. There is more than enough food and medical care to go around.

GOPerfect said:

On average, 50 Billion dollars are wasted on Medicare per year. This is just waste. This does not include the fraud and the abuse of the system. Yes, Medicare needs some serious work.

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It's assumed, given there is fraud and abuse in medicare/medicaid; The Government has very strict rules if there's even a hint of impropriety they'll shut off payments, you cannot even have volunteers that have committed or been involved with fraud as they'll suspend/deny any claims submitted. We* had to hire legal and a professional Billing Company to stay in compliance and actually be paid jack squat...LOTS of Doctors and Medical Facilities have gotten away from accepting it if they can.
*Volunteer Ambulance

FP1201 said:

It's assumed, given there is fraud and abuse in medicare/medicaid; The Government has very strict rules if there's even a hint of impropriety they'll shut off payments, you cannot even have volunteers that have committed or been involved with fraud as they'll suspend/deny any claims submitted. We* had to hire legal and a professional Billing Company to stay in compliance and actually be paid jack squat...LOTS of Doctors and Medical Facilities have gotten away from accepting it if they can.
*Volunteer Ambulance

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Any abuse is what I want gone. If the cuts are from the abuse and fraud, I am okay with it.

FP1201 said:

It's assumed, given there is fraud and abuse in medicare/medicaid; The Government has very strict rules if there's even a hint of impropriety they'll shut off payments, you cannot even have volunteers that have committed or been involved with fraud as they'll suspend/deny any claims submitted. We* had to hire legal and a professional Billing Company to stay in compliance and actually be paid jack squat...LOTS of Doctors and Medical Facilities have gotten away from accepting it if they can.
*Volunteer Ambulance

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So, under Trump's first term, he changed many things for Veterans that use VA Medical. One of the things was Community care. Sounds fantastic until you realize how few Dr's take it. The payout is wicked low. I see all of the bills, I have a minor surgery on my back a few months back, Dr charged almost 8k, through Community care, they paid $592

rushmore said:

I believe that healthcare, food, and shelter are basic rights, and while it definitely isn’t the governments job to provide for those who ARE able provide for themselves… I don’t agree that America should ever be a place where lawful citizens in genuine need are left to fend for themselves if they have no other options. There is more than enough food and medical care to go around.

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This is something that we will never agree on. I do not think HC is a Right.

I do not think eating is a Right, nor do I think housing is a Right.

Work well, work hard and all can have these things. The tax payer should never be on the hook for these things.

I have lots of extra dog and cat food, I will be damned if I am going to feed the strays.

fresch said:

How many on this forum have actively made savings/investment debt reduction more important than fun and games?

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My friend spent years convincing me to change my ways and get myself out of debt.
Once he did, and I finally managed to become debt-free, I suddenly realized all the things I could now do. Buy a car and pay it off in less than a year. Buy the small "fun and games" stuff I wanted. All will still being able to put money toward retirement AND still have money "left over" to put into savings so the next emergency didn't cripple me.
All at the cost of not having the "fun and games" things I wanted for a few years.

It hurt. I'll be honest. Like most, I'd become complacent in my life and didn't react well to change.

Now?
I can't believe the position I am in.
> 15% of my pay goes toward retirement. I can actually contemplate the idea that I might actually get to retire!
And, I can still put ~$10k in savings per year (maybe more... need to run the numbers again) or use it for things I wanted that make life a little more enjoyable.

Still can't afford to buy a house in NY though. The property and school taxes are too big a burden to overcome.

togmaster said:

Tariffs are paid by companies on the US side of the border not the country from which they came. The idea behind them is to lower sales of foreign products by making them too expensive. Not a good strategy for raising income to replace taxes.

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Tariffs *are* taxes.

The only difference between tarrifs and income taxes is whether you're taxing the company for sending money overseas, or taxing them for adding value to the US economy.

So, which of those things would you prefer to discourage ?

OwnTheRide said:

You're absolutely right... instead of income taxes, we'd be paying consumption taxes. That said, IMO, consumption taxes might be more fair. Hear me out:

Income taxes are supposedly progressive, meaning everyone pays equal share on each portion of income they qualify for. So, just using made-up numbers, everyone pays 10% on their first $50k, 15% on 50k-100k, 20% on 100k-200k, etc. This is inherently fair. But, that's not how our income tax actually works. Credits and deductions phase out as income rises, meaning that a higher earner will pay a higher rate on the first few brackets of their income. Then, on the backside, ultra-high earners don't earn wages, they earn interest, which is taxed at lower capital gains rates.

What does this reality amount to? The middle class paying the highest tax rates.

Consumption taxes, on the other hand, are applied equally across the board. You pay taxes on what you buy, not what you earn. So, poor people who buy less, pay less in taxes. Ultra-wealthy people buy more, and pay more.

It's not perfect, but no perfect system exists. It is much more fair than our current "progressive-but-not-really" income tax.

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Also your gross income doesn’t mean anything anymore with the cost of health care and other expenses. Some are deducted off your federal taxable income and some are not. Take me for example I put $300 per pay in my kids 529 and that doesn’t help me federally but does at the state level, I save $1,000 per month and that doesn’t help me reduce my taxable income either. I made $185K gross federal so I lost all my educational credits this year when they were $15K for three people so I lost a fortune for making $5,000 too much. Of course they taxed me on that $5,000 anyway and they make me claim my son so he couldn’t even benefit from the educational tax credit on his own. They take household income for that.