Things are heating up in the Donbass

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holdover said:
Thats the sales pitch, the reality in real warfare is much lower. Iran did some serious damage to isreal including takeing out airfields and Hq's pulus damaging the port If those were nukes Israel would have been gone, even 95% would not be good enough.

5% of russian nukes would destroy the US , thats several hundred strikes , thats not a great option
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We already analyzed that.

5% of Russian *deployable* nukes is less than a couple dozen. And that's assuming they almost all work.

And since Russia doesn't get to pick *which* missiles get through, they need to target the important stuff with dozens of warheads to ensure it gets destroyed. That would mean they can only pick a couple targets.

Imagine they launch an attack, and only destroy NY, LA, and DC, with most of the rest of the country unscathed.

Do you have any idea what sort of blood lust the American people would have after something like that ? The Russian language might die out it would be so severe.
 
spat

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holdover said:
An Iranian ballistic missile slammed into a building complex in Beer Sheva in Southern Israel with Israeli media reporting that air defense systems malfunctioned. It comes as a senior intelligence official in Israel tells NBC News that Israel’s renowned Iron Dome missile defense system had been 90 percent effective, but that it has gone down to 65 percent in the last 24 hours. NBC’s Richard Engel reports for TODAY from Tel Aviv.


According to reports citing a senior Israeli intelligence official, the effectiveness of Israel's Iron Dome missile defense system has reportedly dropped to 65%. This marks a significant decrease from the previous reported rate of 90%. This decline in effectiveness has been attributed to a combination of factors, including:
  • Increased sophistication of enemy missiles: Iran is reportedly utilizing more advanced missiles with enhanced speed, accuracy, and potentially multiple warheads, making them more challenging to intercept. These newer missiles have also reportedly reduced the available warning and reaction time for Israeli air defenses.
  • Saturation attacks: Iran and its proxies may be employing tactics like saturation attacks, launching a large number of missiles simultaneously to potentially overwhelm the Iron Dome's capacity.
  • Electronic Warfare and Countermeasures: The possibility of electronic warfare and countermeasures being used against Iron Dome's radar and targeting systems is also a concern.
  • Depletion of Interceptor Stocks: Reports from sources like The Wall Street Journal and Newsweek have highlighted concerns about dwindling stockpiles of Arrow missile interceptors, which are part of Israel's broader air defense architecture alongside Iron Dome.
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None of that applies to an ICBM attack.

Any attack with ICBMs is effectively instant. The defense will assume they're *all* getting launched at once, and will be built with more than enough interceptor to deal with them.

And unlike iron dome, that has to defend against large numbers of cheap disposable rockets, the golden dome will be designed to deal with ICBMs, which are orbital class rockets where the sheet cost and size limit their numbers.

Russophiles like to look at warhead counts, and ignore missile counts. But warheads sitting on shelves in a warehouse are useless. They may have thousands of warheads, but only about 300 ICBMs to launch them.
 
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Saving face is all that is left.
Zlensky could wake up dead and negotiation would move forward.
"Nato" has worked with enemies before, we worked with Russia for the space station.
The encroaching of Islam world wide could be used as the link to make a deal palatable to we surfs.
Energy from Russia flows to Europe.
 
tirwin1

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spat said:
Imagine they launch an attack, and only destroy NY, LA, and DC, with most of the rest of the country unscathed.

Do you have any idea what sort of blood lust the American people would have after something like that ? The Russian language might die out it would be so severe.
Click to expand...
Blood lust? I think a thank you card from Hallmark might be more likely. ;-)
 
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spat said:
Imagine they launch an attack, and only destroy NY, LA, and DC, with most of the rest of the country unscathed.
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I cant imagine only 3 nukes getting through. Thats seriously unrealistic .

not much to say if you think a nuclear war is winnable , were on oppiste sides of the fence on this.
 
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holdover said:
I cant imagine only 3 nukes getting through. Thats seriously unrealistic .

not much to say if you think a nuclear war is winnable , were on oppiste sides of the fence on this.
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If you think that means only 3 nukes get through, then you don't understand statistics or nuclear war.

And "winnable" is a very vague proposition.

I think the US as a nation would survive, and Russia would not. Is that "winning" ?
 
spat

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holdover said:
I guess not.
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If you don't actually do the math, probability can be very counter intuitive.

If you have a 5% chance of one missile getting through, and you want to be 95% sure you can nuke that city, you need to launch 60 missiles at it.

3 cities and that's 180 of your 300 missiles right there. And that's only for a 95% chance per city.

If you want a 95% chance for all three you'll need even more missiles.

If you can push your intercept rate a little bit higher, then the math for the attacker gets much worse.

Now, if you're just going to shot gun at 50 different cities with your 300 missiles, then most of those cities will be fine, and you don't know which ones you'll get.

And OfC, most nuclear doctrine isn't targeted at cities anyway. You're going to target your opponents military capacity as a priority. Because you don't want to take out a couple of cities and then have to deal with his full military.

That's why a national missile intercept capability is a game changer in a nuclear war.

We built a point defense system in the 70s, and then negotiated it away in an arms control treaty. It scared the ever living shit out of the Soviets, because suddenly they would have needed something like 60,000 warheads to get the MAD they wanted, and they knew that would break them trying.
 
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I dont disagree with your math, I disagree with your data. I also disagree with your ideas of winning a nuclear war based on the incompetency and in ability of the enemy to respond effectively, and your unshakable belief that our weapon systems are infallible and the stated effectiveness of near 100% accuracy, in spite of the historical facts that nearly no weapon systems ever attain that level. further more , your understanding of the root causes of the war of a ""land Grab"" by a global thug are simplistic disregarding the the past 30 to 100 years of history leading up to the conflict .

though I tend to agree with you on most other topics, this one we are miles apart , Russia will end this conflict on her terms .
 
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Robin said:
.......just give me the Sudetenland Herr Chamberlain, and we will have peace in our time.
Adolf Putin
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“We need only to kick the door in and the whole rotten structure will come crashing down,” -Adolph Hitler

do you understand the basis for Chamberlains appeasement? Englands military was weak, she needed time to build up her military. the war with Germany was a forgone conclusion. After the invasion of Poland she had very little to oppose Germany with , she had to buy time .
 
Drinkthekoolaid

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holdover said:
“We need only to kick the door in and the whole rotten structure will come crashing down,” -Adolph Hitler

do you understand the basis for Chamberlains appeasement? Englands military was weak, she needed time to build up her military. the war with Germany was a forgone conclusion. After the invasion of Poland she had very little to oppose Germany with , she had to buy time .
Click to expand...


War was considered nearly inevitable by many. There were those who wanted to stall to buy time to re arm and train and build up industry. Others wanted a genuine last ditch attempt at peace and to avoid war. They were not mutually exclusive but done in conjunction with each other.

en.wikipedia.org

British rearmament before World War II - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

By the time everyone realized how advanced Germany was the western allies undertook and effort to catch up but they were already behind in modernizing their militaries. So stalling was desirable.
 
spat

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holdover said:
“We need only to kick the door in and the whole rotten structure will come crashing down,” -Adolph Hitler

do you understand the basis for Chamberlains appeasement? Englands military was weak, she needed time to build up her military. the war with Germany was a forgone conclusion. After the invasion of Poland she had very little to oppose Germany with , she had to buy time .
Click to expand...
You're not wrong about the reasons for the appeasement.

But thankfully we are not in that situation. The US military is a match for the next 10 strongest militaries on the planet put together

So we shouldn't act like we need to kowtow.
 
spat

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holdover said:
I dont disagree with your math, I disagree with your data. I also disagree with your ideas of winning a nuclear war based on the incompetency and in ability of the enemy to respond effectively, and your unshakable belief that our weapon systems are infallible and the stated effectiveness of near 100% accuracy, in spite of the historical facts that nearly no weapon systems ever attain that level. further more , your understanding of the root causes of the war of a ""land Grab"" by a global thug are simplistic disregarding the the past 30 to 100 years of history leading up to the conflict .

though I tend to agree with you on most other topics, this one we are miles apart , Russia will end this conflict on her terms .
Click to expand...
Nobody wins a nuclear war. It's like the way my martial arts instructor used to describe a knife fight "winners drip and losers gush".

I'm also not sure which math you disagree with, there's a pretty wide consensus on what the Russian nuclear capabilities are. My figures are based on a worst case scenario for us, where nearly all of their missiles and warheads have been well enough maintained to function.

Reality could be much worse for them.

But I certainly wouldn't describe losing several major cities and maybe 100 million people as "winning". But the US would continue to function as a sovereign entity for sure. Russia, not so much.
 
CaseHardened

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Ok.

Historically Donbas has been a Ping-Pong Nation.

Ruled by one empire, then another, then back.

As I understand it the area Putin desires speaks Russian and the people identify as Russians.

Zelensky - shyster - fraud - penis piano playing "comedian" - can pound sand.

Trump and Putin should cut a deal, and CUT OFF Zelensky 100%.
 
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CaseHardened said:
Ok.

Historically Donbas has been a Ping-Pong Nation.

Ruled by one empire, then another, then back.

As I understand it the area Putin desires speaks Russian and the people identify as Russians.

Zelensky - shyster - fraud - penis piano playing "comedian" - can pound sand.

Trump and Putin should cut a deal, and CUT OFF Zelensky 100%.
Click to expand...

The Missing Element – What Do the Ukrainian People Want?​

August 18, 2025 | Sundance | 89 Comments
Amid all the banter, opinion, negotiations and high-brow conversations about what should happen to end the Ukraine-Russia conflict, one element remains undiscussed: What do the Ukrainian People want?
Current ‘President’ Volodymyr Zelenskyy, installed as an outcome of western influence operations, extended his term in office by cancelling Ukraine elections. His elected term ended 18 months ago, and he has not left office. The various EU/NATO stakeholders did not want the authentic voice of the Ukrainian people to impede on the proxy war against Russia, and so they supported the election cancellation.

Now, the element never discussed by WEF/NATO or EU officials, is what the citizens of Ukraine want. From the position of Russian President Vladimir Putin this non-democratic ‘democracy’ paints Zelenskyy as illegitimate; one of the baselines that affirms his position not to negotiate with him.

Within Ukraine there are very visible signs the citizens no longer support Zelenskyy; however, that would be an inconvenient factor to introduce to the conflict equation, so it is simply avoided in the discussion. Western media avoid it.

As an outcome a lot of people watching things unfold do not understand the context that Zelenskyy is in a weak position domestically with sentiment within Ukraine turning sharply against ongoing war. The MSM won’t report on it and the neocon “influencers” won’t either. The focus is on Russia bad.
With President Trump openly wanting to withdraw U.S. support, the beneficiaries of the funding -specifically the U.S. congress, senate foreign relations and intelligence committees- went bananas. These are the same entities who originally supported the USAID/CIA operations within
Ukraine.
1755515061101.png


theconservativetreehouse.com

The Missing Element - What Do the Ukrainian People Want? - The Last Refuge

Amid all the banter, opinion, negotiations and high-brow conversations about what should happen to end the Ukraine-Russia conflict, one element remains undiscussed: What do the Ukrainian People want? Current ‘President’ Volodymyr Zelenskyy, installed as an outcome of western influence...
theconservativetreehouse.com theconservativetreehouse.com


https://theconservativetreehouse.co...-Truth-Zelenskyy-Peace-1-August-17th-2025.jpg
 
Blimey

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Three years later I maintain that had the west taken this seriously Ukraine, which has done a remarkable job with what it has been given, could have pushed russia back to pre-2022 border. They've basically stagnated the front line for a couple of years. To be sure I blame Europe more than the USA, in truth. It is its back door step under threat, and they have not taken defense seriously enough, letting the US foot the bill for decades on defense spending. Had they done better they could have more weaponry and means to support Ukraine, but instead have to beg the USA, which is now incredibly friendly to a fascist dictator.

I am every bit as disgusted as I ever was with americans cheering on the expansion of russia through imperialist aggression. Truly vile to behold. Their lifelong, no-terms-limit president wants to reform the soviet union, and you cheer him for it. Deeply shameful.
 
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Blimey said:
Three years later I maintain that had the west taken this seriously Ukraine, which has done a remarkable job with what it has been given, could have pushed russia back to pre-2022 border. They've basically stagnated the front line for a couple of years. To be sure I blame Europe more than the USA, in truth. It is its back door step under threat, and they have not taken defense seriously enough, letting the US foot the bill for decades on defense spending. Had they done better they could have more weaponry and means to support Ukraine, but instead have to beg the USA, which is now incredibly friendly to a fascist dictator.

I am every bit as disgusted as I ever was with americans cheering on the expansion of russia through imperialist aggression. Truly vile to behold. Their lifelong, no-terms-limit president wants to reform the soviet union, and you cheer him for it. Deeply shameful.
Click to expand...

Douglas Macgregor: Ukraine War Is Over & NATO Exhausted Itself​


At this point Ukraine does not have the manpower to push back . China and India do a massive amount of trade with Russia. The average Russian has not been hurt by this war ... Yes a bit in manpower lost but most things roll as usual ... A lot of money has been siphoned off the top ... Graft we call it ... No one will ever be accountable . How much longer do we support this situation ?
 
spat

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Blimey said:
Three years later I maintain that had the west taken this seriously Ukraine, which has done a remarkable job with what it has been given, could have pushed russia back to pre-2022 border. They've basically stagnated the front line for a couple of years. To be sure I blame Europe more than the USA, in truth. It is its back door step under threat, and they have not taken defense seriously enough, letting the US foot the bill for decades on defense spending. Had they done better they could have more weaponry and means to support Ukraine, but instead have to beg the USA, which is now incredibly friendly to a fascist dictator.

I am every bit as disgusted as I ever was with americans cheering on the expansion of russia through imperialist aggression. Truly vile to behold. Their lifelong, no-terms-limit president wants to reform the soviet union, and you cheer him for it. Deeply shameful.
Click to expand...
There have been many opportunities for NATO to end this quickly.

The goal of the prior administration was never to end the conflict, but to prolong the gravy train. It was one of the greatest money laundering machines of the last 100 years.

The whole thing could have been avoided if Biden had just laid out some consequences harsher than a strongly worded letter and some temporary sanctions in this press conference.

President Biden Remarks on Russia and Ukraine | Video | C-SPAN.org share.google

But by saying that the consequences for an invasion would be merely "condemnation" and some sanctions that everyone knows would be lifted in a few years, he was all but giving Putin permission to invade.

The invasion happened less than a week after those remarks.
 
GOPerfect

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Blimey said:
Three years later I maintain that had the west taken this seriously Ukraine, which has done a remarkable job with what it has been given, could have pushed russia back to pre-2022 border. They've basically stagnated the front line for a couple of years. To be sure I blame Europe more than the USA, in truth. It is its back door step under threat, and they have not taken defense seriously enough, letting the US foot the bill for decades on defense spending. Had they done better they could have more weaponry and means to support Ukraine, but instead have to beg the USA, which is now incredibly friendly to a fascist dictator.

I am every bit as disgusted as I ever was with americans cheering on the expansion of russia through imperialist aggression. Truly vile to behold. Their lifelong, no-terms-limit president wants to reform the soviet union, and you cheer him for it. Deeply shameful.
Click to expand...


You mean under your boy Biden, right? He did drop the opportunity to stop this from the beginning. Good thing we have Trump to put an end to this.
 
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What about Aleppo?
Recall how the media chewed up Gary Johnson, over a city in rubble that no one saved?
 
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GOPerfect said:
You mean under your boy Biden, right? He did drop the opportunity to stop this from the beginning. Good thing we have Trump to put an end to this.
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From what I have gathered ... What could have plausibly could have happened ... Biden administration told the Chinese that Ukraine would become a NATO member That was back channeled to Putin... . Russia would not allow that. Thus the invasion. What liberals got was a big money machine supporting their party. Think of all the trips into the Ukraine by liberal politicians ... If a pallet of cash was placed on their planes (like we saw being sent to Iran ) Perhaps only 1/10th the size. .... Would anyone find out ?
You think customs board Pelosi's plane .. Now you have a funding source (off the books ) for Antifa and corrupt judges along with all the other dirty deeds one can think of
 
Drinkthekoolaid

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Blimey said:
Three years later I maintain that had the west taken this seriously Ukraine, which has done a remarkable job with what it has been given, could have pushed russia back to pre-2022 border. They've basically stagnated the front line for a couple of years. To be sure I blame Europe more than the USA, in truth. It is its back door step under threat, and they have not taken defense seriously enough, letting the US foot the bill for decades on defense spending. Had they done better they could have more weaponry and means to support Ukraine, but instead have to beg the USA, which is now incredibly friendly to a fascist dictator.

I am every bit as disgusted as I ever was with americans cheering on the expansion of russia through imperialist aggression. Truly vile to behold. Their lifelong, no-terms-limit president wants to reform the soviet union, and you cheer him for it. Deeply shameful.
Click to expand...


If you are so pro Ukraine, doesn't it bother you that the west, US, NATO whatever are all just using Ukraine like a pawn?

The objective has never been to beat Russia. The objective has been to bleed Russia.

Some Intel advisor super genius probably had dusted off some old playbook to try to recreate the USSR Afghanistan debacle but in modern time. Use Ukraine to bleed Russia and damage Russias economy and world standing. It's never been about Ukraine.

The collective west is using ukranian blood and demographics to try and bleed Russia. We've never been trying to help them win. We've been giving just enough arms, support, training to draw them into a protracted fairly static stalemate. The weaker Ukraine has become the more support they are receiving. It's never enough to actually break the stalemate in Ukraines favor, just enough to try and hold on and keep things static forcing Russia to throw more men and their own resources into breaking through.

There are literally hundreds of thousands or millions of lives and families ruined because of strategy.

It's gross. It's vile. It's evil.


Then throw in the insane ability of greedy politicians and corporations to exploit profits and launder money and voila you have now created a get rich scheme in the middle of human suffering.


Is that what you are supporting?

Spare me that we are supporting a dictator. When was the last time zelensky was re elected? (He wasn't, he suspended elections to retain power). Is that really the moral high ground over Putin??
Zelensky won't have elections because he knows his people are tired of the war. He knows his people don't want white vans around kidnapping any man they find and clubbing them into submission to go get maimed or die on the front line weeks later. His people have had enough of that and it's disgusting.


I'm pragmatic. This needs to end. Whatever is left of Ukraine should try to be saved. Make a peace deal. Admit the Biden regime and the west were belligerents in this conflict and their strategy has assisted in the ruination of Ukraine.

We never wanted Ukraine to win because that would put an end to the money laundering and getting rich.

If we genuinely wanted Ukraine to win NATO would have declared a no fly zone over Ukraine and enforced it. That option may very well have led to ww3 or it would have let Russia know we are serious and they would have backed down. But Bidens feckless weak leadership led to this. The installation of a western puppet led to this.

At this point the best outcome that can come out of this mess, is try to build a lasting peace, understand how this war started and try to prevent it from happening again. Extend an olive branch to Russia and try to repair diplomatic ties and rebuild relationships. Then focus out attention on the western Pacific.
 
spat

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Drinkthekoolaid said:
If you are so pro Ukraine, doesn't it bother you that the west, US, NATO whatever are all just using Ukraine like a pawn?

The objective has never been to beat Russia. The objective has been to bleed Russia.

Some Intel advisor super genius probably had dusted off some old playbook to try to recreate the USSR Afghanistan debacle but in modern time. Use Ukraine to bleed Russia and damage Russias economy and world standing. It's never been about Ukraine.

The collective west is using ukranian blood and demographics to try and bleed Russia. We've never been trying to help them win. We've been giving just enough arms, support, training to draw them into a protracted fairly static stalemate. The weaker Ukraine has become the more support they are receiving. It's never enough to actually break the stalemate in Ukraines favor, just enough to try and hold on and keep things static forcing Russia to throw more men and their own resources into breaking through.

There are literally hundreds of thousands or millions of lives and families ruined because of strategy.

It's gross. It's vile. It's evil.


Then throw in the insane ability of greedy politicians and corporations to exploit profits and launder money and voila you have now created a get rich scheme in the middle of human suffering.


Is that what you are supporting?

Spare me that we are supporting a dictator. When was the last time zelensky was re elected? (He wasn't, he suspended elections to retain power). Is that really the moral high ground over Putin??
Zelensky won't have elections because he knows his people are tired of the war. He knows his people don't want white vans around kidnapping any man they find and clubbing them into submission to go get maimed or die on the front line weeks later. His people have had enough of that and it's disgusting.


I'm pragmatic. This needs to end. Whatever is left of Ukraine should try to be saved. Make a peace deal. Admit the Biden regime and the west were belligerents in this conflict and their strategy has assisted in the ruination of Ukraine.

We never wanted Ukraine to win because that would put an end to the money laundering and getting rich.

If we genuinely wanted Ukraine to win NATO would have declared a no fly zone over Ukraine and enforced it. That option may very well have led to ww3 or it would have let Russia know we are serious and they would have backed down. But Bidens feckless weak leadership led to this. The installation of a western puppet led to this.

At this point the best outcome that can come out of this mess, is try to build a lasting peace, understand how this war started and try to prevent it from happening again. Extend an olive branch to Russia and try to repair diplomatic ties and rebuild relationships. Then focus out attention on the western Pacific.
Click to expand...
The objective wasn't to bleed Russia.

I'm not sure Washington ever cared one way or another how this ended.

The objective was to bleed the American taxpayer. And in that respect they were wildly successful.

Would be interesting to see how many dollars got funneled back to left wing politicians for each Russian and Ukrainian life lost.
 
Drinkthekoolaid

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spat said:
The objective wasn't to bleed Russia.

I'm not sure Washington ever cared one way or another how this ended.

The objective was to bleed the American taxpayer. And in that respect they were wildly successful.

Would be interesting to see how many dollars got funneled back to left wing politicians for each Russian and Ukrainian life lost.
Click to expand...

I think if the really hardcore sheep "blinders on" Ukrainian supporters ever put the pieces together that ukranians are dying to funnel money to democrat interests they would be out of their mind livid. Fortunately for Democrats those individuals lack the ability to think critically and make independent conclusions.

It's tragic. The big guy and his chosen people got rich and Ukraine suffered. How people can't see that evil is beyond me.
 
tirwin1

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spat said:
The objective wasn't to bleed Russia.

I'm not sure Washington ever cared one way or another how this ended.

The objective was to bleed the American taxpayer. And in that respect they were wildly successful.

Would be interesting to see how many dollars got funneled back to left wing politicians for each Russian and Ukrainian life lost.
Click to expand...
The objective was both. I recall at least one talking head almost gleefully talking about bleeding russia through this conflict. It has morphed into 3 objectives:

1) Bleed US taxpayers and enrich our elites
2) Bleed the russians
3) Use the conflict to develop drone warfare capabilities and strategies at no cost to the US (but at the expense of the ukrainians).
 
spat

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tirwin1 said:
The objective was both. I recall at least one talking head almost gleefully talking about bleeding russia through this conflict. It has morphed into 3 objectives:

1) Bleed US taxpayers and enrich our elites
2) Bleed the russians
3) Use the conflict to develop drone warfare capabilities and strategies at no cost to the US (but at the expense of the ukrainians).
Click to expand...
I'm not convinced that anyone in DC gives a shit about where the Ukraine/Russia border is drawn, or what the Russian economy or military looks like.

At most, maybe they want the sanctions so they can drive up the price of oil or something, but that's probably not a major concern.

There are a lot of lobbiests that are salivating at the idea of Europe re-arming. That's a lot of planes and missiles to be sold though.
 
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