Archaic long guns

[Jsmegs77]

So, anyone else here into archaic long arms? I have inherited a very shooter grade but complete 1873 Trap Door Springfield carbine (actually manufactured in 1877 as far as we can get on the serial number) and want to play with it. Do’s, don’ts, tips or tricks? I’m planning on loading up some .45-70 brass with blackpowder and cast bullets, hoping to mimic the cavalry 405 grain load. It’s old so I don’t want to hurt it, and in no way am I going to put smokeless powder through it even though I’ve heard there are Trapdoor safe modern load offerings.

Don’t have any ancillary bits yet, just got the rifle home today.

 

[Zerex]

Carbines used 55 grains of BP, not 70 as the rifle did.
Recoil reduction was the reason.

It is very hard to get 70 gr in a case anyway.

Shoot 300 or 350 gr pure lead bullets, not 400's, unless you want buffalo for dinner. Lead obturates to bore size.

 

[Jsmegs77]

Carbines used 55 grains of BP, not 70 as the rifle did.
Recoil reduction was the reason.

It is very hard to get 70 gr in a case anyway.

Shoot 300 or 350 gr pure lead bullets, not 400's, unless you want buffalo for dinner. Lead obturates to bore size.

55 grains in that case, plus BP likes to be compressed ever so lightly to burn well… I assume I need a filler?

I wanted to replicate the cavalry carbine load, 55 grains of BP (can I use equivalent Triple 7 or the like?) and a 405 grain 16/1 or 20/1 lead/tin cast bullet. Have heard these are quite accurate and figured the original Springfield load spec would be a good baseline.

 

[S&W Fan]

I’m sure that you’ve probably already gone down the Springfield 1873 rabbit hole. There is a ton of info. Out there in addition to some really cool youtube vids. I’ve always wanted to get my hands on one of the rifles that the 1873 replaced , the Spenser Carbine .

 

[FP1201]

What still amazes me are how many almost pristine bores there are on these 150 year old Rifles and how well they shoot!
I use Accurate Arms 5744 powder under well lubed 405gr. cast bullets... easy to load, shoot, and ease of clean up.

https://www.hodgdonreloading.com/reloading-data-center

The Lyman Book on cast bullets is your friend, and using the proper smokeless powder is safe and effective, besides, if you get really serious going for the bottom of the Rabbit Hole, you'll learn enough along the way to know exactly what you're doing.


FWIW: I started messing around with the 45/70's older Brother the *50-70 and other than Brass being unobtanium, it's just as good as the 45/70.
*Contact me if you have any cases for sale.

 

[Robin]

I'm archaic, my guns are normal to me.
Robin

 

[Acer-m14]

i got one of these .. grrrrrr ... its been sportified so not factory ..

30-40 Krag .. i need more ammo LOL

 

[Jsmegs77]

What still amazes me are how many almost pristine bores there are on these 150 year old Rifles and how well they shoot!
I use Accurate Arms 5744 powder under well lubed 405gr. cast bullets... easy to load, shoot, and ease of clean up.

https://www.hodgdonreloading.com/reloading-data-center

The Lyman Book on cast bullets is your friend, and using the proper smokeless powder is safe and effective, besides, if you get really serious going for the bottom of the Rabbit Hole, you'll learn enough along the way to know exactly what you're doing.


FWIW: I started messing around with the 45/70's older Brother the *50-70 and other than Brass being unobtanium, it's just as good as the 45/70.
*Contact me if you have any cases for sale.

This one has a very nice bore. Clean, shiny, no dark spots, rifling looks sharp. I am at the edge of the rabbit hole now, boy for a nearly 150 year old rifle there’s a lot of current info out there.

On the 50-70 note, I had a box of ancient .50-90 cartridges I found in a house clean out. Lost them in a foreclosure courtesy my ex wife.

 

[S&W Fan]

There is also a good amount of info. On using modern day smokeless powder without hurting the gun.

 

[Jsmegs77]

There is also a good amount of info. On using modern day smokeless powder without hurting the gun.

Looking into this now, I originally had thought that blackpowder would be gentler but further research indicates that the specified blackpowder loads are on par pressure wise with more modern smokeless loads (for Trapdoors obviously, not for lever actions or Ruger #1’s…).

Rabbit hole indeed, there is a huge amount of info out here for these guns.

 

[FP1201]

i got one of these .. grrrrrr ... its been sportified so not factory ..

30-40 Krag .. i need more ammo LOL

View attachment 207197

I have/had Krags, they're surprisingly nice Rifles.
Ammo is seasonable at best, expensive when available, even Brass is tough to find these days.

 

[Xae289]

Looking into this now, I originally had thought that blackpowder would be gentler but further research indicates that the specified blackpowder loads are on par pressure wise with more modern smokeless loads (for Trapdoors obviously, not for lever actions or Ruger #1’s…).

Rabbit hole indeed, there is a huge amount of info out here for these guns.

You also have to consider, Triple 7 is a fair bit more powerful than true black powder for a given charge volume. You might well be better off using an appropriate Springfield Trapdoor load published by Hodgdon. To be gentle, you can use a powder that maintains low PSI and doesn't send a bullet much, if any, faster than black powder. Looking quickly at the Hodgdon data, Accurate 5744 and H4198 both fit that bill and do it with powder charges in the mid-to-high 20 grains range. That means the powder will stretch double even the 55 grain black powder carbine load.

 

[S&W Fan]

According to Hodgdon load data the IMR 3031 would also be another good choice .
by the way, thanks . I’m now on a quest to replace my grandfather’s 45-70 trapdoor rifle that I should Never have gotten rid of so many years ago.

 

[FP1201]

Looking into this now, I originally had thought that blackpowder would be gentler but further research indicates that the specified blackpowder loads are on par pressure wise with more modern smokeless loads (for Trapdoors obviously, not for lever actions or Ruger #1’s…).

Rabbit hole indeed, there is a huge amount of info out here for these guns.

These old Rifles are fun and cool having the challenge of old Black Powder cartridges and the modern appeal of cleaner, more accurate loads... It's quite enjoyable watching big lead slugs travel down range reporting back with a big WHOP!
When you look way back at the Buffalo Hunters, the Creedmore Shooters, and original "long range" shooters using iron sights on massive rifles with incredible accuracy, it really makes you appreciate where Target Shooting came from and where it's headed.

 

[Acer-m14]

I have/had Krags, they're surprisingly nice Rifles.
Ammo is seasonable at best, expensive when available, even Brass is tough to find these days.

i like old rifles .. and yep the ammo can be expensive ..

all i have for that Krag ..

and i think its the oldest rifle i have ..

 

[Clancy]

Just how archaic are we talking here?

 

[Jsmegs77]

Just how archaic are we talking here?

View attachment 207605

That’ll certainly work. I was halfway expecting some joker to post up a matchlock, but flintlocks are fine too!