garyv350
.357 mag
It can. For now. It doesn't fall into any safe compliant rules. It just has to stay in the configuration as it was manufactured.
Franklin Armory Reformation?
- Thread starter nyenthusiast
- Start date
Might want to read the penal law for NY not just the added parts of the safe act
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
What are you guys talking about?
Whether or not this would be legal in NY
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
Okay. I'll bite. How will this be illegal?
Having the lands and grooves would be argued as rifling. And if I'm not mistaken even at the end of macs video he says how Franklin Armory doesnt really have any ATF documentation about the not being rifled
Not only that, with FA stating that it is designed to key hole. Sounds to me like the lands and grooves are assisting in that and thus in a way imparting "spin"
garyv350
.357 mag
My bad.....the "other" I'm familiar with is manufactured by POF. Not exactly the same. Will have 2 soon. They are selling like crazy at my LGS.
GOYABEAN
.950 JDJ
land that' seems like a straight ticket to jail 
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
Great video. I'll pass though.
We understand that there are plenty of arguments against Reformation. In fact, the memes last year were pretty funny. However, we are actively pursuing the New York market, and currently my marketing team is reaching out to see what it takes to be a sponsor here on this site. Our goal is to make legal products for markets that would otherwise be underserved. We do not intend to be everything to everyone.
One thing MAC's video does is dispel the myth that Reformation is inherently inaccurate. It obviously is comparable to similar firearms with similar length rifled barrels. Yes, standard ammunition does lose energy due to the change in ballistic coefficient. Yes, it does change the sectional density as well. Perhaps a cold (14 degree) rubber dummy is not the best medium to evaluate against. Soon you will see a 300-BLK variant tested which does carry more energy down range. Even so, I bet that most of you do not have a 100 yard hallway. This firearm was designed for CQB use right from the beginning.
The specialized ammunition is in development, and we do hope to have that out later this year. We have achieved sub-MOA groups with our R&D ammunition, but it requires further refinement. We are always very direct with our comments, and just as MAC proved with the accuracy, we stated that it would run 3.5 MOA at 100 yards. MAC achieved groups that were LESS than that. So, hang in there, when we say something, we back it up. It may take a little longer than we all will like, but it will be worth the wait. In the mean time, there is off the shelf ammunition that is readily available.
Lastly, we do have a letter from ATF. However, since there was some proprietary information in the letter, I asked Dan O'Kelly from International Firearm Specialist Academy to review the letter and provide a response for public consumption. I would post it herein, but I don't want to violate the terms. There was one change since that letter came out. We have since heard from ATF that they do NOT require form 5320.20 to be filled out for interstate travel.
I apologize for the novel size response. I look forward to bringing Reformation, our XO-26, and Providence to New York, and I look forward to your critical review.
One thing MAC's video does is dispel the myth that Reformation is inherently inaccurate. It obviously is comparable to similar firearms with similar length rifled barrels. Yes, standard ammunition does lose energy due to the change in ballistic coefficient. Yes, it does change the sectional density as well. Perhaps a cold (14 degree) rubber dummy is not the best medium to evaluate against. Soon you will see a 300-BLK variant tested which does carry more energy down range. Even so, I bet that most of you do not have a 100 yard hallway. This firearm was designed for CQB use right from the beginning.
The specialized ammunition is in development, and we do hope to have that out later this year. We have achieved sub-MOA groups with our R&D ammunition, but it requires further refinement. We are always very direct with our comments, and just as MAC proved with the accuracy, we stated that it would run 3.5 MOA at 100 yards. MAC achieved groups that were LESS than that. So, hang in there, when we say something, we back it up. It may take a little longer than we all will like, but it will be worth the wait. In the mean time, there is off the shelf ammunition that is readily available.
Lastly, we do have a letter from ATF. However, since there was some proprietary information in the letter, I asked Dan O'Kelly from International Firearm Specialist Academy to review the letter and provide a response for public consumption. I would post it herein, but I don't want to violate the terms. There was one change since that letter came out. We have since heard from ATF that they do NOT require form 5320.20 to be filled out for interstate travel.
I apologize for the novel size response. I look forward to bringing Reformation, our XO-26, and Providence to New York, and I look forward to your critical review.
Right on.. I am excited to see what happens with the ATFs response for the Providence and know something like that both as a "pistol" and a carbine would be awesome for us here in NY
Robin
.475 A&M Magnum
ArmedCorgi
.475 A&M Magnum
Thank you for doing what you do. I look forward to seeing this take off and develop further. Also, welcome to the forum!
BDinPutnam
.475 A&M Magnum
Agreed.
Trying new things is not inherently bad and in fact is a good thing. I may not rush out and buy one but I wish them well and look forward to hearing how this all develops.
Welcome to NYGF.
nyenthusiast
.38 Special
Welcome aboard! I love the innovation you guys have brought to the firearms industry. If these do become available in New York, I look forward to having the opportunity to try one. I certainly have high hopes for it.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
@franklinarmory . If I'm not mistaken, I believe the ATF only considers a muzzle device part of the barrel if it's permanently affixed to it via their two methods. (Silver solder and welding)
If you can somehow create a real smoothbore barrel (maybe about 7.5 inches) that can accept a threaded muzzle device that's rifled on it's threads of about 8 inches, you'd have a package that can stabilize regular bullets and still not be considered a rifle.
Just a thought. Don't know if that can even work. I'll take 3 percent of sales for the 1st 5 years and 1 precent thereafter for a period of 10 years.
If you can somehow create a real smoothbore barrel (maybe about 7.5 inches) that can accept a threaded muzzle device that's rifled on it's threads of about 8 inches, you'd have a package that can stabilize regular bullets and still not be considered a rifle.
Just a thought. Don't know if that can even work. I'll take 3 percent of sales for the 1st 5 years and 1 precent thereafter for a period of 10 years.
That's physically possible to do, however, we really do have some interesting ammunition in the works. Other ammunition manufacturers are also working on similar designs. In fact one ammunition company mentioned to me that they have products on the shelf that would be adaptable to Reformation. With enough interest, we might actually get them to release it. ....but I'm not holding my breath.@franklinarmory . If I'm not mistaken, I believe the ATF only considers a muzzle device part of the barrel if it's permanently affixed to it via their two methods. (Silver solder and welding)
If you can somehow create a real smoothbore barrel (maybe about 7.5 inches) that can accept a threaded muzzle device that's rifled on it's threads of about 8 inches, you'd have a package that can stabilize regular bullets and still not be considered a rifle.
Just a thought. Don't know if that can even work. I'll take 3 percent of sales for the 1st 5 years and 1 precent thereafter for a period of 10 years.
ArmedCorgi
.475 A&M Magnum
It sucks that that work around wouldn't help us in NY. Unless the whole grooved barrel allows for us to have a threaded barrel???@franklinarmory . If I'm not mistaken, I believe the ATF only considers a muzzle device part of the barrel if it's permanently affixed to it via their two methods. (Silver solder and welding)
If you can somehow create a real smoothbore barrel (maybe about 7.5 inches) that can accept a threaded muzzle device that's rifled on it's threads of about 8 inches, you'd have a package that can stabilize regular bullets and still not be considered a rifle.
Just a thought. Don't know if that can even work. I'll take 3 percent of sales for the 1st 5 years and 1 precent thereafter for a period of 10 years.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
If you guys can do that sort of like a rifled choke on a shotgun, I'll forego the agreed upon 3 percent of sales and just take a smoothbored not a rifle along with a rifled muzzle device as a beta test that I don't have to return along with a bunch of tshirts and paraphernalia to promote it.
SuffolkArms
.40 S&W
@franklinarmory Any plans on selling the XO-26 now that Delta Level Defense is selling their CT4-2A out here? It would be nice to have two 26 OAL "firearm" AR15 sellers in this state to lend legitimacy to that option.. my understanding is that the XO-26 ATF letter was the first one to really prove the concept out at the federal level.
Jsmegs77
.308 Win
Welcome Franklin, from behind the Rust Curtain. While the Reformation isn’t something I have much interest in, the Providence very much has my attention. The non revolver DAO actuation is very interesting and I’m very much looking forward to getting my hands on one in the future.
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That is on our agenda. Given that we were the ones that got that configuration approved by ATF back in 2011, it is somewhat embarrassing that we are behind the curve like this. I have instructed my sales reps to report back about what they find in NY stores currently so we can provide a competitive option.
I know what it is like. We have the fruit and nut curtain over on the left coast. We look forward to bringing Providence to NY too. We rushed the presentation at SHOT to show everyone what we created. We still have a lot of endurance testing before we are ready to put it on the market, but we are hoping that we have it ready by fourth quarter this year.
These will sell like hotcakes here in NY
ArmedCorgi
.475 A&M Magnum
I wonder how the Providence pistol would be listed on permits?
Yea, they will have to ramp up manufacturing.
SuffolkArms
.40 S&W
Does anybody know of an FFL who will transfer these? I'm looking to get an RS7.
We will be visiting New York next month to meet directly with New York dealers. If any dealers would like a visit from us to discuss the product in person, we would able to set up appointments.