DONE Pre '64 Winchester Model 70 Target Rifle
- Thread starter tony
- Start date
GOYABEAN
.950 JDJ
Well it did hit paper
But can it hit a three legged ewe?Well it did hit paper
tony
6.5 Creedmoor
Most match rifle (not service rifle) competitors know that a heavy bull barrel such as that one shoot better HOT. Didn't you know that Larry? When I was shooting competitively I would always use 3 of my 5 sighters to WARM and FOUL the barrel. You should have shot it before you undertook aggressive cleaning. Who the heck knows what you did to it with your cleaning method.
You are a complete fool ! I was on 7 USAF shooting teams and have forgotten more than you will EVER know ! Are you are really dumb enough to think that a standard high power cleaning routine will cause cracking and alligatoring as is seen in that bore. A well made and well bedded barrel does not care if it is hot or cool. To suggest otherwise runs contrary to what any quality bbl maker would tell you. Why are you defending this scam ? You are making an ass of yourself in the eyes who know anything about what a fried barrel looks like. Our own little Cory Booker !
GOYABEAN
.950 JDJ
Poor Kev, so sad he doesn't even have the phrase right. It's "the nut behind the bolt."
Funny how some among us can take up the flag to defend a scam that has been demolished by photographic evidence.
The "Persian Messenger" syndrome at work. Sounds like the Dimmicraps on the Senate Judiciary Committee !
No facts, no proof, sooooo we'll just make up stuff !
When you find a qualified barrel maker to support your BS, I'll listen. Until then, have at. Have not heard yet from the idiot who was going strap on his Colt 45 and walk down 5 & 20 ---- perhaps you can get him to comment as well ?
Remarks like these tend to confirm the posit that most smart people have left Cuomo's plantation.
"when in worry or in doubt, run in circles scream and shout!"
Funny how some among us can take up the flag to defend a scam that has been demolished by photographic evidence.
The "Persian Messenger" syndrome at work. Sounds like the Dimmicraps on the Senate Judiciary Committee !
No facts, no proof, sooooo we'll just make up stuff !
When you find a qualified barrel maker to support your BS, I'll listen. Until then, have at. Have not heard yet from the idiot who was going strap on his Colt 45 and walk down 5 & 20 ---- perhaps you can get him to comment as well ?
Remarks like these tend to confirm the posit that most smart people have left Cuomo's plantation.
"when in worry or in doubt, run in circles scream and shout!"
COMMENTS FROM AN EXPERIENCED BARREL MAKER
WHERE THE DAMAGE IS DONE
So the damage, no surprise, is greatest near the mouth of the cartridge where maximum heat is focused on the leade where bullets ride a tapered “ramp” onto the rifling. The steel expands, shrinks as it cools, and suffers microscopic cracks. (The steel deeper in the barrel wall remains cooler than the surface. Tension between the two exacerbates cracking.) Ever enlarging cracks open the way for mechanical erosion. As each bullet tears across the steel under incredible heat and some 40,000 to 64,000 psi of pressure, it generates friction and rips at the molecules of steel. Obviously the softer bullet metals suffer more than the steel, but the lands and grooves don’t get off scot free. (In addition to the heat, there are particles of yet-to-be-burned powder kernels that act a bit like sand, but this probably has negligible effect.)
As those microscopic cracks and fissures begin to propagate, hot gases jet into them and swirl, enlarging them. Heating, cooling, heating, cooling… expanding and shrinking… It’s almost as if the steel is work hardening like a wire you flex until it breaks.
As all of this abuse is underway, chemicals in the powder interact with some of the alloys in the steel, weakening and eroding some more than others. This opens additional imperfections. The first inch or two of rifling can take on the texture of a 90-year-old sun worshipper while the last half of the barrel still looks like a baby’s belly. This is why some barrels can be re-chambered to regain accuracy. Cut a new chamber deeper into the barrel, ream out the degraded rifling, and you’re back in business, albeit with a shorter barrel.
LOOK FAMILIAR YOU "EXPERTS" ?
WHERE THE DAMAGE IS DONE
So the damage, no surprise, is greatest near the mouth of the cartridge where maximum heat is focused on the leade where bullets ride a tapered “ramp” onto the rifling. The steel expands, shrinks as it cools, and suffers microscopic cracks. (The steel deeper in the barrel wall remains cooler than the surface. Tension between the two exacerbates cracking.) Ever enlarging cracks open the way for mechanical erosion. As each bullet tears across the steel under incredible heat and some 40,000 to 64,000 psi of pressure, it generates friction and rips at the molecules of steel. Obviously the softer bullet metals suffer more than the steel, but the lands and grooves don’t get off scot free. (In addition to the heat, there are particles of yet-to-be-burned powder kernels that act a bit like sand, but this probably has negligible effect.)
As those microscopic cracks and fissures begin to propagate, hot gases jet into them and swirl, enlarging them. Heating, cooling, heating, cooling… expanding and shrinking… It’s almost as if the steel is work hardening like a wire you flex until it breaks.
As all of this abuse is underway, chemicals in the powder interact with some of the alloys in the steel, weakening and eroding some more than others. This opens additional imperfections. The first inch or two of rifling can take on the texture of a 90-year-old sun worshipper while the last half of the barrel still looks like a baby’s belly. This is why some barrels can be re-chambered to regain accuracy. Cut a new chamber deeper into the barrel, ream out the degraded rifling, and you’re back in business, albeit with a shorter barrel.
LOOK FAMILIAR YOU "EXPERTS" ?
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FROM A REAL EXPERT !
Burning out a bbl is largely related to throat erosion.
Once a bbl chambered for the likes of a 243, 6XC, or 6.5x284 gets 500 rds thu it, you can borescope the bbl and find:
Cracking in the bbl steel in the first two inches of bbl. Some call this alligator cracking because it begins to look like a dry lake bed or the irregular pattern of skin on an alligator.
The throat (tapered part of the lands) begins to wear/recede from the mouth of the case. That is why you "Chase" the lands with bullet seating as the round count down the bbl increases.
This rough area begins to build up with copper fouling that is torn from the bullet as it passes. This affects accuracy.
The actual land diameter also enlarges/tapers towards the muzzle. Chamber end of the bore will measure larger than the muzzle. If you rechamber a used bbl, you will see that the pilot that fits the muzzle is way too small in diameter for the breach end of the bbl.
Muzzle deterioration/wear comes from cleaning rods and from rounds fired. The high temp/pressure gases do begin to take the sharp edge off the crown after 1000 rds or so. That is why benchresters recrown their bbls to keep that area sharp.
So if you want the high performance cartridges like 22/250, 243, 6.5x284, then be prepared to pay the price of short bbl life. If you are a hunter, this may not be an issue. For us competition shooters (where a lot of rounds are put down bbls each year) it is an expense we have to accept.
That is one of the reasons that the 6BR line of cartridges are so popular. Good ballistic performance with long bbl life.
Keep the throat of your bbl smooth/protect the crown and you will see a greater number of accurate rounds out of it.
Burning out a bbl is largely related to throat erosion.
Once a bbl chambered for the likes of a 243, 6XC, or 6.5x284 gets 500 rds thu it, you can borescope the bbl and find:
Cracking in the bbl steel in the first two inches of bbl. Some call this alligator cracking because it begins to look like a dry lake bed or the irregular pattern of skin on an alligator.
The throat (tapered part of the lands) begins to wear/recede from the mouth of the case. That is why you "Chase" the lands with bullet seating as the round count down the bbl increases.
This rough area begins to build up with copper fouling that is torn from the bullet as it passes. This affects accuracy.
The actual land diameter also enlarges/tapers towards the muzzle. Chamber end of the bore will measure larger than the muzzle. If you rechamber a used bbl, you will see that the pilot that fits the muzzle is way too small in diameter for the breach end of the bbl.
Muzzle deterioration/wear comes from cleaning rods and from rounds fired. The high temp/pressure gases do begin to take the sharp edge off the crown after 1000 rds or so. That is why benchresters recrown their bbls to keep that area sharp.
So if you want the high performance cartridges like 22/250, 243, 6.5x284, then be prepared to pay the price of short bbl life. If you are a hunter, this may not be an issue. For us competition shooters (where a lot of rounds are put down bbls each year) it is an expense we have to accept.
That is one of the reasons that the 6BR line of cartridges are so popular. Good ballistic performance with long bbl life.
Keep the throat of your bbl smooth/protect the crown and you will see a greater number of accurate rounds out of it.
masterswimmer
.450/400 Nitro Ex
@SteyrAug karma's a bitch.
kev74
20×102mm Vulcan
You bought a 55+ year old rifle with about 1000 rounds through the barrel. Then you scoured it down to bare metal and played detective with your bore scope before you shot it, and determined it was crap and threw a hissy-fit that you were swindled.
Then you did shoot it, for one 5 shot group, and got about a 2 inch group which looks an awful lot like a ~1 inch group with 2 fliers, and are mystified that nobody here is grabbing figurative torches and pitchforks and coming to your defense. What were you expecting to get?
You're cherry picking your data, and you present yourself as an unlikable douche. That's why nobody here believes you.
Then you did shoot it, for one 5 shot group, and got about a 2 inch group which looks an awful lot like a ~1 inch group with 2 fliers, and are mystified that nobody here is grabbing figurative torches and pitchforks and coming to your defense. What were you expecting to get?
You're cherry picking your data, and you present yourself as an unlikable douche. That's why nobody here believes you.
Bananabandit
.338 Win Mag
I didnt know daycare was opened this late.
GOYABEAN
.950 JDJ
You've been away to long they extended playtime hour's
tony
6.5 Creedmoor
The last picture you posted looks an awful lot like tearing from a dull cutting tool. I suppose pictures like these are all over the internet. Who knows if the other pictures were even of the Hart Barrel. I never told you it had an excellent bore. I have no borescope...
As far as using my recipe for handholds I'm sure you just walked into Billy Bob's Farm, Garden and Gun shop and picked up a box of Hornady #2840 162 gr. HPBT National Match bullets off the shelf, and you had a set of dies, .280 Rem. brass, IMR 4350 powder and CCI 200 primers on hand. I suppose anything is possible. If I might ask, how far off the lands did you seat the bullet? That rifle liked .010" - .015" off the lands.
Did you use a rest front and rear? If you didn't, judging from the group you say you shot I would think your breathing control needs a little work (vertical stringing). Good job on the cut and paste.
I grow tired of your frontier gibberish. Have a good evening.
As far as using my recipe for handholds I'm sure you just walked into Billy Bob's Farm, Garden and Gun shop and picked up a box of Hornady #2840 162 gr. HPBT National Match bullets off the shelf, and you had a set of dies, .280 Rem. brass, IMR 4350 powder and CCI 200 primers on hand. I suppose anything is possible. If I might ask, how far off the lands did you seat the bullet? That rifle liked .010" - .015" off the lands.
Did you use a rest front and rear? If you didn't, judging from the group you say you shot I would think your breathing control needs a little work (vertical stringing). Good job on the cut and paste.
I grow tired of your frontier gibberish. Have a good evening.
ECU Pirates
.308 Win
But he was on the usaf shooting team....
Eddie Gunks
.338 Win Mag
[QUOTE="SteyrAug, post: 429990, member: 829
T-R-O-L-L ![/QUOTE]
Ha ha ha. Calling the kettle black.
So will you finally leave now?
Bye bye troll boy.
T-R-O-L-L ![/QUOTE]
Ha ha ha. Calling the kettle black.
So will you finally leave now?
Bye bye troll boy.
knuts
.45 acp
BDinPutnam
.475 A&M Magnum
Calling @Bullet Guy a troll here is like calling Michael Avanetti a stand up guy. Kind of doesn't stand up to scrutiny.
Listening to these two is like listening to Cory Booker examine Judge Kavanaugh.
Throw enough crap at the wall and hope something will stick.
I have the rifle, the pictures, what real experts say and the target.
Isn't it odd that Kev thinks it's so great but won't buy it and Tony, who claims it drives tacks, won't honor what EVERY auction site requires, a 3 day inspection, and take the burned out POS back ? Funny how one lie keeps begetting more !
If anyone is dumb enough to believe this BS, I have a bridge to sell you !
All done liars, rant away, nobody cares.
Throw enough crap at the wall and hope something will stick.
I have the rifle, the pictures, what real experts say and the target.
Isn't it odd that Kev thinks it's so great but won't buy it and Tony, who claims it drives tacks, won't honor what EVERY auction site requires, a 3 day inspection, and take the burned out POS back ? Funny how one lie keeps begetting more !
If anyone is dumb enough to believe this BS, I have a bridge to sell you !
All done liars, rant away, nobody cares.
BDinPutnam
.475 A&M Magnum
So why don't we do this.
Submit the rifle to someone else here for independent T&E.
Submit the rifle to someone else here for independent T&E.
masterswimmer
.450/400 Nitro Ex
Some people JUST DON'T GET IT! 
GUNSICK
6.5 Creedmoor
How much to ship?
Robin
.475 A&M Magnum
Well styr, you do have somewhat of a credibility problem here, and apparently whatever forum you impose yourself. I think Tony said it best.
Robin Blocked
Robin Blocked
Oh fuck, he's back.
BDinPutnam
.475 A&M Magnum
Ten grand.
GOYABEAN
.950 JDJ
#TOASTEDOUTPRE64 
Exonautic
.308 Win
Jesus. Dick or not he got sold a rifle with a very Rough looking bore. for a rifle that is allegedly over 50 years old, it can have 1000 rounds through it or 3000, if it wasn't taken care of properly they will look the same. @SteyrAug I'd be pretty pissed if i spent anywhere nearing a grand on a gun and the rifling looked like that.
BDinPutnam
.475 A&M Magnum
Yet we have, one, five round group pic, from a notoriously unreliable poster with a history of bad faith.
Eddie Gunks
.338 Win Mag
@thewheels
.308 Win
uh...this seems easy to me.
Put another shooter behind it and see what they can do with it?
That's how we do it where I'm from.
Put another shooter behind it and see what they can do with it?
That's how we do it where I'm from.