spat
.950 JDJ
Pretty sure they can.
I'm sure there would be lawsuits, because this is America, people will sue over anything they don't like, but they would lose.
TN bill would ban private businesses from saying no firearms
- Thread starter Saltwater60
- Start date
I'm sure there would be lawsuits, because this is America, people will sue over anything they don't like, but they would lose.
I give him credit, really do...
He is fighting the good fight against all on the forum and not giving up an inch of his opinions and thoughts. Very honorable....
I think much of his argument is coming from the ADA site.
Americans with Disabilities Act Title III Regulations
Title III of the ADA - regulations for businesses, including nonprofits meant to ensure that people with disabilities can access places of business and public accommodation.
www.ada.gov
nortatoga
.338 Win Mag
I give him credit, really do...
He is fighting the good fight against all on the forum and not giving up an inch of his opinions and thoughts. Very honorable....
I think much of his argument is coming from the ADA site.
Americans with Disabilities Act Title III Regulations
Title III of the ADA - regulations for businesses, including nonprofits meant to ensure that people with disabilities can access places of business and public accommodation.
Yes from ADA is where I had to find what he was copy and pasting. If you read through the last thread he used the same arguments and like this thread other's also disagreed with him. That is way I post the link along with what I copy and paste from the link, so others can see for themselves all the info.
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dwa12479
.338 Win Mag
This seems to be the part he can't grasp.
dwa12479
.338 Win Mag
I cant see a reason why government needs to stick their nose into a debate like this. If a business wants to discriminate, let them. Against anyone and everyone. Let the free market decide their fate.
JunkBoxFull
.308 Win
Yeah i`m gonna have to go with the "My house/property, My rules"
I shall bow out of the discussion as I have voiced my take on this issue gents! Bottom line is, You don't have the right to tell me what I can wear or bring into your public accommodation if I am not harming anyone or breaking a law. Peace out!
subsonic
.44 mag
He had no reply. Somehow I didn't even mention Memphis, another Democrat-run city with a violent crime problem to match anywhere in America.
Then there was this yesterday, the fourth such incident by a single maniac who is still at large:
Many such cases!
But people in this thread keep drooling about private property and public accommodations, totally missing the point.
You want Tennessee to make citizens criminals if they conceal carry in a posted laundromat, in this world?
Edit: Looks like they just caught the perp, Khadree Renfro. He has at least one prior for aggravated assault/strangulation from 2019 that shows up locally, but that hasn't slowed him down from continuing to enrich his local community. And it looks like more from Chicago, including being naughty with guns. Specifically, in Chicago in 2013 he and three others with an illegal handgun were in a stolen Lexus SUV, which they crashed.
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dwa12479
.338 Win Mag
No one wants that. My point in this thread is there is no need what-so-ever for this bill. Government should stay out of it. I believe that private business should have the discretion to serve or not serve anyone of their choosing for any reason. If its violated it should not automatically be a crime, simply leave or be declared trespassing.
WillyK
.357 mag
Banning firearms in this Tennessee business didn't work out so well for them.
Huddle House
Huddle House
subsonic
.44 mag
And that's basically what this law restores. It's nobody's business if you are CONCEALED carrying peacefully and properly. Those stupid signs should not have the power of the law to impose criminal penalties or endanger gun rights.
dwa12479
.338 Win Mag
That I agree with 100%.
I 99% agree.
The only exception I have is when a business has a government provided no competition allowed monopoly, then they should be forced to offer services to everyone. Think something like your natural gas provider. You can't just go get another one if they say, "we don't like people with green cars so no service for you".
subsonic
.44 mag
So your point is "there is no need what-so-ever for this bill" and at the same time you "agree 100%" that it is badly needed.
In other words you are still just knee-jerk "muh property" reacting to this bill 6 pages of nonsense into this steaming pile of thread without really understanding what you are for or against.
dwa12479
.338 Win Mag
What you described is the current situation. Signs carry no penalty of law. And they shouldn't. It should stay that way, hence no need for this bill.
dwa12479
.338 Win Mag
Duly noted, yes. But thats a unique situation with government interference obviously. Not a true free market "private business "
subsonic
.44 mag
No, you're wrong, and that's the entire point of the bill, to change that.
From the fucking law cited on the sign, which SB1037 repeals:
2021 Tennessee Code :: Title 39 - Criminal Offenses :: Chapter 17 - Offenses Against Public Health, Safety and Welfare :: Part 13 - Weapons :: § 39-17-1359. Prohibition at Certain Meetings — Posted Notice — Handgun Carry Permit Holder
Justia Free Databases of U.S. Laws, Codes & Statutes
law.justia.com
c.
It is an offense to possess a weapon in a building or on property that is properly posted in accordance with this section.- Possession of a weapon on posted property in violation of this section is a Class B misdemeanor punishable by fine only of five hundred dollars ($500).
Do “No Gun Signs” Have the Force of Law? “YES”
And don't tell me it's only $500. It's a criminal firearms misdemeanor. Whether or not that affects a CCW in Nashville (I strongly suspect it could), it affects employment, it affects background checks, and do you suppose it would affect getting a CCW in a state like New York?
dwa12479
.338 Win Mag
Was not aware that signs in TN carried the force of law. I stand corrected on that.No, you're wrong, and that's the entire point of the bill, to change that.
From the fucking law cited on the sign, which SB1037 repeals:
2021 Tennessee Code :: Title 39 - Criminal Offenses :: Chapter 17 - Offenses Against Public Health, Safety and Welfare :: Part 13 - Weapons :: § 39-17-1359. Prohibition at Certain Meetings — Posted Notice — Handgun Carry Permit Holder
Justia Free Databases of U.S. Laws, Codes & Statutes
c.
It is an offense to possess a weapon in a building or on property that is properly posted in accordance with this section.- Possession of a weapon on posted property in violation of this section is a Class B misdemeanor punishable by fine only of five hundred dollars ($500).
Do “No Gun Signs” Have the Force of Law? “YES”
And don't tell me it's only $500. It's a criminal firearms misdemeanor. Whether or not that affects a CCW in Nashville (I strongly suspect it could), it affects employment, it affects background checks, and do you suppose it would affect getting a CCW in a state like New York?
I still do not agree with government forcing private business to serve someone against their will. Let them discriminate against anyone or everyone, let nature take its course.
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nortatoga
.338 Win Mag
Here some interesting info from the first (So-Called) Constitutional Stare Vermont..
Private property rights are not some new thing.
"NO WEAPONS ALLOWED" SIGNS ENFORCED?Are "No Weapons Allowed" signs enforced in Vermont? If yes, violating the sign would be considered to be a crime. If no, violating the sign would not be considered a criminal offense. | Yes. It is illegal to enter or remain on any land or in any place as to which notice prohibiting firearms is given by actual communication or posted signs. [Vt. Stat. Ann. § 3705] |
CARRY IN BARS/RESTAURANTS THAT SERVE ALCOHOL?Can you carry a concealed firearm in bars and restaurants that serve alcohol in Vermont? | Yes, there is no statute making it illegal to concealed carry in bars or restaurants, unless posted. |
CARRY/POSSESS AT A HOTEL?Can you carry or possess a firearm on hotel property in Vermont? | Vermont statutes don't specifically address firearms at hotels. Please note that each hotel develops their own policies and the individual hotel should be contacted to inquire about it's concealed carry policy. See the Handguns at Hotels page for additional information. |
WHERE CAN I CARRY A CONCEALED FIREARM IN VERMONT? |
|
Private property rights are not some new thing.
nortatoga
.338 Win Mag
No Guns Allowed Signs, Force Of Law And You
No Guns Allowed Signs, Force Of Law And You
Learn how “No Guns Allowed” signs impact concealed carry. Understand their legal force, property rights, and what CCW holders need to know.
aliengearholsters.com
While "no guns allowed" signs may not have force of law in some states, what DOES have force of law is the right of anyone owning or otherwise in control of a property to forbid certain people from the premises.
Some gun friendly States right here RIGHT?
So, where "no guns allowed" signs have force of law is the following states:
- Alaska
- Arizona
- Illinois
- Mississippi
- Minnesota
- Kansas
- Nebraska
- New Mexico
- North Carolina
- Ohio
- Oklahoma
- South Carolina
- Tennessee
- Texas
- Utah*
- Virginia*
- Wisconsin
subsonic
.44 mag
And your second list contradicts this resource on Vermont (as well as handgunlaw.us). The cited Vermont statute is their general trespass statute. It says nothing about guns or signs relating to firearms, only about posting against trespass in general. So: 1. I find no cases or support for the fact that a conditional "no firearms" sign would automatically create a penalty for trespass or given any force of law, and 2. This is purely a general trespass law, nothing firearm specific; there are no additional prohibitions or penalties relating to firearms possession or signs forbidding firearms.
If you're hauling a .30-03 and a field dressing kit on land posted against hunting that's one thing, because you are visibly there for engaging in a forbidden and posted purpose. If you're at Applebee's with your 9mm in a concealed holster for self-protection while peacefully enjoying a meal as a customer that's another entirely. A "no guns" sign isn't a "no trespassing" sign.
It's really not the same thing, nor is this Vermont statute really relevant to the rest of this thread, which is that all the yammering here is missing the point and this Tennessee law is badly needed. That aliengearholsters list needs to be updated to include New York now. Hopefully Tennessee will be off the list if the "muh private property" kneejerk mindset doesn't join hands with the antigun lobby to foil this bill.
One other thing about your holster-huckstering-link that you're citing as authority, they give an example of drawing your gun to stop a robbery and hold the robber for police at a posted establishment, as if that's just the normal thing to do:
That "be a hero" mindset is not very smart. I don't think most trainers would advise drawing a firearm to protect another person's property, nope! If you haven't got that lesson in 2023 I don't know what to tell you. The McMichaels got life without parole as a couple of good ol' boys in freaking Glynn County Georgia, and the judge rejected a plea deal that would have given them 30 years. The point of carrying is to make it home to and with your family. If I'm going to be a hero I'm going to need a better reason than to stop crime at a business that doesn't even respect my own right to protect myself.
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Vinson57
.475 A&M Magnum
Special kind of hybrid person bred here in NY. Part of a Stockholm syndrome of victims mixed with shithouse lawyer. We are sitting at CCIA only permits a trip to a gun store where you probably do not need a gun or a shooting range or your own empty field or just sit in your house. Did you realize you cannot stop anywhere at all? Its also a fools task to keep track of those few places that allow. Neither are we dogs to be trained to invisible fences.
CC should like underwear and no one concerned with it. No one can ask if you got some or if its clean, shitty or the wrong color or type.
Gun Free Zones are only areas guarded and screened by licensed uniformed security operating metal detectors.
My last is all state gun control which is an infringement is automatically unconstitutional as 2A removes it from being a states right to infringe upon. These all have to be wiped clean in one swoop. The invention of interstates, widespread commercial air travel and the internet, means we no longer can have 50 different levels of infringement. They just ended Missouri SAPA with the Supremacy Clause of the constitution and in doing so, proves my point.
The strategy is to not give in on anything.
CC should like underwear and no one concerned with it. No one can ask if you got some or if its clean, shitty or the wrong color or type.
Gun Free Zones are only areas guarded and screened by licensed uniformed security operating metal detectors.
My last is all state gun control which is an infringement is automatically unconstitutional as 2A removes it from being a states right to infringe upon. These all have to be wiped clean in one swoop. The invention of interstates, widespread commercial air travel and the internet, means we no longer can have 50 different levels of infringement. They just ended Missouri SAPA with the Supremacy Clause of the constitution and in doing so, proves my point.
The strategy is to not give in on anything.
spat
.950 JDJ
Arizona is an interesting case.No Guns Allowed Signs, Force Of Law And You
No Guns Allowed Signs, Force Of Law And You
Learn how “No Guns Allowed” signs impact concealed carry. Understand their legal force, property rights, and what CCW holders need to know.
While "no guns allowed" signs may not have force of law in some states, what DOES have force of law is the right of anyone owning or otherwise in control of a property to forbid certain people from the premises.
Some gun friendly States right here RIGHT?
So, where "no guns allowed" signs have force of law is the following states:
- Alaska
- Arizona
- Illinois
- Mississippi
- Minnesota
- Kansas
- Nebraska
- New Mexico
- North Carolina
- Ohio
- Oklahoma
- South Carolina
- Tennessee
- Texas
- Utah*
- Virginia*
- Wisconsin
In order to have the force of law the owner must provide secure storage for your guns while you are there.
I am not aware of anyone doing it, but I could certainly see a protest by people who just visit and then force the anti-gun owner to handle and secure their guns.
They might decide that having the nervous minimum wage counter employee handle guns all day isn't the smartest plan, and that taking down the sign is better.
nortatoga
.338 Win Mag
You kind of got it right..
Any establishment or event open to the public where the operator makes a reasonable request for you to give them custody or remove the weapon from the premises. A sign would qualify for such request. By law, cities and counties are required to offer on-site storage if they ban weapons but not all are in compliance.
spat
.950 JDJ
You missed this part.
You have the option of removing the weapon, but if you choose not to, they have to store it for you.
That applies to any public venue, not merely municipal ones.
nortatoga
.338 Win Mag
You are correct, I missed that my BAD!! But that is why I always try to post the link from which I quote from to be transparent unlike some who cherry pick.
Curious question:
If you are carrying in an establishment that has posted "no guns" signs, and, while you are there, the place gets robbed, do you keep your firearm concealed until they get to you, knowing that others can, and likely will, be harmed in the commission of that robbery?
The mentality that "my gun is only to make sure *I* get home to my family means you are quite willing to stand by and watch other innocent people get harmed or killed before the perps eventually reach YOU.
I find that idea repulsive, myself. But everyone is different.
If you are carrying in an establishment that has posted "no guns" signs, and, while you are there, the place gets robbed, do you keep your firearm concealed until they get to you, knowing that others can, and likely will, be harmed in the commission of that robbery?
The mentality that "my gun is only to make sure *I* get home to my family means you are quite willing to stand by and watch other innocent people get harmed or killed before the perps eventually reach YOU.
I find that idea repulsive, myself. But everyone is different.
spat
.950 JDJ
For me ?
Depends on what kind of people are in the establishment.
Nobody's innocent, but some are generally good and some are useless.
subsonic
.44 mag
Are they robbing the store or are they robbing you? If they're robbing the store, then leave with all expediency and call the "proper authorities" to deal with the situation. If you can't safely leave due to a personal threat then act accordingly.
The best way protection from robberies and assaults is to "get the hell away" from criminals. In a high trust and homogenous society, they are rare, and there's a communal investment in public order. Like how in the old days you could turn your kids outside in a residential city neighborhood and they could go play on the streets with their friends, go in and out of each others' houses, and if kids got out of hand then whatever adult was in the vicinity could step in and administer whatever necessary discipline. Now all of that is out the window. Our communities, from cities on out, are increasingly diverse and low-trust. Robberies and assaults are common in urban areas. If you want to fight crime join the police. The "no guns" establishment has made it clear that they can wait until the police show up.
You may think your community is different because it is rural/small town, not too diverse or ravaged by meth and fentanyl, still relatively high trust, but think twice. Again, look what happened to the McMichaels. They were a couple of anonymous bubbas in Glynn County in A.F. 1 (Year of Our Floyd 1), one formerly a local cop. They stopped a jogger and now they are in prison for life. Do you want to be in prison for life?