Things are heating up in the Donbass

[holdover]

Minsk agreements had nothing to do with nukes.

Ukraine never had nukes to give up. Soviet nuclear arsenal belonged to Russian Federation as Internationally recognized successor of the Soviet Union along with all of the nuclear treaties made by the Soviet Union.

You cant argue history with sombody that parrots CNN talking points

 

[holdover]

Just a reminder, the principle part of that agreement was that Ukraine give up their nukes in exchange for security guarantees from Russia and the US.

NO.

 

[holdover]

You're probably correct on that one.

I'm not sure blaming all of NATO for some CIA scheme is quite fair, but the gist of it is right.

But, they setup the bait and Putin fell right into the trap. All he had to do was keep his troops on his own side or the border.

So, regardless or what manipulation the CIA was engaging in, the actual crime here was the invasion, and that is 100% on Putin.

He did keep his troops on his side of the border from 2014-2022. After screaming for thirty fucking years that the expansion of NATO into Ukraine was unacceptable to the national security of the Russian state , warning after warning after warning the CIA Puppet decided it was a good idea , then Russia in a surprise attack for no good reason decided to attack Ukraine and take over Europe What a bunch of bullshit. You believed WMD's in Iraq too. dont even deny it. You bought it hook line and sinker. the reason is telling, You dont study or research .

 

[holdover]

To bring this to an end Trump needs to threaten both sides with a big stick.

He can threaten Ukraine with cutting them off if they don't make a deal. But if he doesn't also threaten Russia, then they will just demand the world from Ukraine.

The obvious threat to Russia is more support for Ukraine.

Basically "you guys better find an end for this, or I'll end it for you".

Hes not going to threaten Russia with military action. Hes going to coax him with honey, Hes going to tell zelensky to grab whatever deal Russia offers because its the last deal Putin will make . The war is lost. its over , it cant be undone now .The Russians will take whatever they want to take now. the Ukraines are retreating across the entire front , its over.

 

[holdover]

Truly amazing, callous, bordering on delusional, and beyond words.
Robin

Coming from you it doesnt mean much. Cold wars been over for 30 years .

 

[spat]

Ridiculous.? Thats rich. the CNN version , Russia invaded Ukraine for no good reason , except maybe to take over ALL of Europe.

Thats like a 5th grader understanding of what happened Ive tried to explain the history of the conflict which goes back decades but it never took . You dont want to hear it . You dont want to hear the the agreement to leave the soviet Union in 91 required an agreemnt that Ukraine would never join NATO. You dont want to hear it was written in thier constituion, You dont want to hear that CIA coup of Ukraine installed a puppet , You dont want to hear Zelenski was ready to give the black sea fleet over to NATO , You dont want to hear that John Mcain and friends armed and trained Ukraine to the teeth , You dont want to hear that Putin explained tens of times if Ukraine joined NATO it would mean war , You dont want to hear that Putin offered a peaceplan several times right before the war started ,You dont want to hear plans to break up Russia into several states was planned by the west .You dont want hear that Angela Merkle stated publicicly that they never intended to honer the agreement it was just to buy time to arm Ukraine( Almost like they knew the war was comming) How old are you guys? 10? Sure sound like it .

Go listen to MSNBC, Russians are bad, Putin is a madman . the world is simple and history and facts means nothing.

I've heard all that.

You don't want to hear that it was *never* Russia's business *who* Ukraine was friends with.

If "warning" someone of something is sufficient justification for war, then maybe we should "warn" Russia that any continued aggression will mean we need to dismantle his military.

Would that be fine ?

How many times would we need to say it to make that stick ?

You act like making unjustified threats justifies carrying them out.

That's like shooting someone and claiming you were justified because he didn't listen when you said you'd shoot him if he didn't hand over his wallet.

So, let's assume everything you said is completely true. It *still* doesn't justify the invasion.

 

[spat]

He did keep his troops on his side of the border from 2014-2022. After screaming for thirty fucking years that the expansion of NATO into Ukraine was unacceptable to the national security of the Russian state , warning after warning after warning the CIA Puppet decided it was a good idea , then Russia in a surprise attack for no good reason decided to attack Ukraine and take over Europe What a bunch of bullshit. You believed WMD's in Iraq too. dont even deny it. You bought it hook line and sinker. the reason is telling, You dont study or research .

I just don't understand *why* you think it matters how long Russia made unjustified threats for.

We *should* have been making threats for the same time that any attempt by Russia to attack *any* of their neighbors would be considered an attack on NATO. That would be far more justified.

See, the thing is Russia has no more right to stop Ukraine joining NATO than they did Finland joining. It doesn't matter how much they "warned" or how much they don't like it.

 

[spat]

Coming from you it doesnt mean much. Cold wars been over for 30 years .

And Russia lost, they keep forgetting that.

 

[holdover]

I've heard all that.

You don't want to hear that it was *never* Russia's business *who* Ukraine was friends with.

Right because thats your CNN version of an opinion.

the fact that the west promised no westward expansion in 90 wasnt thier business either I guess, Not one inch eastward was none of their bushiness . the fact that Median agreement was just to buy time to arm Ukraine wasnt thier business. Who is on your border is very much the business of every state. China told the US not to pursue past the 38 parallel or they would be forced to enter the war in Korea. Which is exactly what we did, and China entered the war no good reason because it was none of thier business that the US created military bases on the Yellow river.

what a bunch of bullshit .

 

[spat]

Right because thats your CNN version of an opinion.

the fact that the west promised no westward expansion in 90 wasnt thier business either I guess, Not one inch eastward was none of their bushiness . the fact that Median agreement was just to buy time to arm Ukraine wasnt thier business. Who is on your border is very much the business of every state. China told the US not to pursue past the 38 parallel or they would be forced to enter the war in Korea. Which is exactly what we did, and China entered the war no good reason because it was none of thier business that the US created military bases on the Yellow river.

what a bunch of bullshit .

What was that agreement again ? What did the west get in exchange for that promise ?

If the Russians didn't hold up their end of that deal, then you can't possibly expect the west to continue to honor it.

The bottom line is that Russia doesn't own anything outside of Russia anymore. They don't have a "sphere of influence" to defend.

That all ended with the Soviet union.

 

[holdover]

And Russia lost, they keep forgetting that.

NO he keeps forgetting that. the soviet union collapsed , communism failed, and instead of welcoming them into the EU as a partner they were refused entry and kept at bay to create an enemy our politicians require.

 

[spat]

NO he keeps forgetting that. the soviet union collapsed , communism failed, and instead of welcoming them into the EU as a partner they were refused entry and kept at bay to create an enemy our politicians require.

Russia isn't an enemy for the west. That is China. Russia is really just a pest.

Russia isn't a major player anymore. Their inability to conquer Ukraine is proof of that.

It's like if Italy was trying to pretend they still run the world and they were upset that France was getting too friendly with the Brits and claimed that justified an invasion.

 

[holdover]

What was that agreement again ? What did the west get in exchange for that promise ?

If the Russians didn't hold up their end of that deal, then you can't possibly expect the west to continue to honor it.

The bottom line is that Russia doesn't own anything outside of Russia anymore. They don't have a "sphere of influence" to defend.

That all ended with the Soviet union.

Ive posted it earlier in the thread, I dont think you even read it , BUt there was an agreement between Russia and Ukraine that if Russia granted them autonimity and release from the soviet Union the Russian government would allow it on One condition and one condition only and with the understanding they could never join NATO Ukraine agreed, and there were no issues with either side until the coup in 14 .

Which according to you has no bearing on the cause of the invasion.( shakes head. )

Russia very much held up thier end of the deal, they promised to invade if Ukraine joined NATO ( planning to) and they invaded. You seriously think the west had no idea? Are you kidding me? I fucking knew and Im nobody. You dont think they anticipated that by arming them to the teeth? Tell me your joking.

 

[spat]

Ive posted it earlier in the thread, I dont think you even read it , BUt there was an agreement between Russia and Ukraine that if Russia granted them autonimity and release from the soviet Union the Russian government would allow it on One condition and one condition only and with the understanding they could never join NATO Ukraine agreed, and there were no issues with either side until the coup in 14 .

Which according to you has no bearing on the cause of the invasion.( shakes head. )

Because "release from the Soviet union" wasn't a condition Russia could give.

The Soviet Union was gone. Russia and Ukraine were peers at that point.

What did Russia promise when Ukraine let *them* out of the Soviet union.

 

[holdover]

Because "release from the Soviet union" wasn't a condition Russia could give.

The Soviet Union was gone. Russia and Ukraine were peers at that point.

What did Russia promise when Ukraine let *them* out of the Soviet union.

no. it wasnt gone. it was a condition of the break up

 

[holdover]

What makes you think that Russia ,at the start of the war, invaded Ukraine with 150-200K troops , against the largest best trained army in Europe at the time ? Ukraine had a standing army of 700K . why would they do something so foolish? They obviously were not prepared for a fight. the first year of the war should be plainly obvious. The Russians were not ready for a major fight. And the fucking west knew it , but like allways they miscalculated and fucked things up beyond hope and here we are. Plan A was the russians would roll over, plan B was to defeat them in Ukraine .

 

[Robin]

Coming from you it doesnt mean much. Cold wars been over for 30 years .

I apologize, your much dumber than I thought.
Robin

 

[holdover]

I apologize, your much dumber than I thought.
Robin

Same stupid remarks as always. You dont have a clue what your your talking about

 

[holdover]

Russia isn't an enemy for the west. That is China. Russia is really just a pest.

Russia isn't a major player anymore. Their inability to conquer Ukraine is proof of that.

In 2010 you might be right, Today they are becoming a major player once again Thanks to our own stupidity. They now have military alliances with Iran and China, they now have control of the oil pipelines from mideast and Russia which once led through Ukraine, they now have 1 million men under arms and weapons production capacity that has tripled , They have broken away from the US dollar, They are supplying our enemys with high end weapons systems which they had refrained from doing in the past

Its a mistake to think that they haven't captured Ukraine quickly is a measure of their potential . I agree they had some seriosu problems at the start and still some unresolved which makes my point even more valid, they were not planning to invade Ukraine, or Europe , They werent ready for prime time. they wernt planning an invasion, they were reacting to a threat with what they had.

That taken into account, they have made large strides forward they have learned to counter some of the best western weapon systems and have been recently crushing the Ukrainian army lead by Nato officers , weapons and training

I agree theres a lot of room for improvement , but to say they arent a major player now is a mistake Every country opposed to the US are now running toward Russia

China is a lot of media hype. they are mainly a land power which has never seen combat in decades

 

[spat]

In 2010 you might be right, Today they are becoming a major player once again Thanks to our own stupidity. They now have military alliances with Iran and China, they now have control of the oil pipelines from mideast and Russia which once led through Ukraine, they now have 1 million men under arms and weapons production capacity that has tripled , They have broken away from the US dollar, They are supplying our enemys with high end weapons systems which they had refrained from doing in the past

Its a mistake to think that they haven't captured Ukraine quickly is a measure of their potential . I agree they had some seriosu problems at the start and still some unresolved which makes my point even more valid, they were not planning to invade Ukraine, or Europe , They werent ready for prime time. they wernt planning an invasion, they were reacting to a threat with what they had.

That taken into account, they have made large strides forward they have learned to counter some of the best western weapon systems and have been recently crushing the Ukrainian army lead by Nato officers , weapons and training

I agree theres a lot of room for improvement , but to say they arent a major player now is a mistake Every country opposed to the US are now running toward Russia

China is a lot of media hype. they are mainly a land power which has never seen combat in decades

Oh, they have alliances with Iran and North Korea. We should really be taking them seriously now.

Next year they may add such military powerhouses as Lichtenstein and Monaco too.

 

[holdover]

Oh, they have alliances with Iran and North Korea. We should really be taking them seriously now.

Next year they may add such military powerhouses as Lichtenstein and Monaco too.

LOL, dont laugh, they have made military alliances with China , Thats a huge deal.

I know your laughing at Iran, but they supply a lot of weapons to our enemy's. to attack Iran with Russia and China backing them is no easy task , NK Russia or china can easily hand over nuclear weapons to Iran if they haven't already , thats a major problem . Especially when it comes to defending Isreal . Because of the Brics nations, We no longer have the same economic power to pressure them . they are economically independent from the US and self sustainable . They dont import jack shit from us , they dont need Saudi oil .

The weapons systems the Russians are exporting are extremely dangerous , they never exported thier high end weapons because we had a deal with them not to they never sold thier anti air weapons to Iran because of pressure from the US , Well thats all over now. Iran now has the S400 which is better than the patriot they are going to sell them the S 500, and thier anti ship missiles and torpedo's , moreover they are selling this stuff all over the Mideast . those stupid hooties shut down the red sea because of Russian weapons they hit isreal with Russian missiles , isreal hasn't launch many strikes into Syria because the Russians gave Syria the S 400's The days of gun boat diplomacy are coming to an end . the world is changing , pay attention.

The Israelis haven't taken Gaza in one year using the latest Western weapons and air power, they have not destroyed Hamas, they barely went a few miles into Lebanon, where do you think the Hajis got the weapons from? Russia China and Iran . Russia is at least one decade ahead of the west in Missile technology. Because of the war, they most likely leading in drone technology also .

Its because of western arrogance that Ukraine is being leveled right now. A total miscalculation that will leave the Russians stronger than they ever were before.

 

[holdover]

What the west doesn't want is a powerful independent Russia. they stand in our way

 

[spat]

What the west doesn't want is a powerful independent Russia. they stand in our way

And Russia doesn't want a powerful and independent Ukraine.

Good thing we don't handle Russia the way they handle Ukraine.

 

[holdover]

Maybe, perhaps they didnt want a NATO army on thier border,couldnt be that

 

[spat]

Maybe, perhaps they didnt want a NATO army on thier border,couldnt be that

And Ukraine doesn't want a powerful Russian army inside their eastern territory.

Maybe we should help Ukraine build 100km buffer zone out of western Russia.

After all, if "not wanting an army on your border" is justification for a military invasion, then what's good for the goose is good for the gander, right ?

 

[Drinkthekoolaid]

I would just like to point out that it's nice to see this thread is not an echo chamber and there are multiple opinions and there are civil arguments to try and prove a point of view.

It's just nice to see there are still adults left in the world.

 

[holdover]

And Ukraine doesn't want a powerful Russian army inside their eastern territory.

Maybe we should help Ukraine build 100km buffer zone out of western Russia.

After all, if "not wanting an army on your border" is justification for a military invasion, then what's good for the goose is good for the gander, right ?

100%

We were ready to invade Cuba when they did it to us

 

[holdover]

I would just like to point out that it's nice to see this thread is not an echo chamber and there are multiple opinions and there are civil arguments to try and prove a point of view.

It's just nice to see there are still adults left in the world.

Awwww, Cut it out We are not!

 

[spat]

100%

We were ready to invade Cuba when they did it to us

To be fair, that was about nuclear missiles at the height of the cold war.

Missiles so close to the US that they could conduct a first strike with too little warning to get a launch off.

And we didn't actually send regular US troops in. If we had Cuba would be the 51st state today.

What we did was more akin to Russia supporting the separatists in Donbass the way we are supporting Ukraine.

 

[holdover]

Missiles so close to the US that they could conduct a first strike with too little warning to get a launch off.

You said it all right there. the ability to strike with no warning . You cant see the chess board from Putins seat? Its not what you think that matters, its what the Russians think. The perceptions of the Russians are that Europe and the US want to break Russia up . The thing is, The US perceived a threat an rightly acted on it. Russia perceives the west as a threat even if you dont . Right now its NATO weapons and even troops that are killing Russians , so its going to be a pretty hard sell to the Russians that we are to be trusted .

To be fair, that was about nuclear missiles at the height of the cold war.

On its face, yes. But Cubas location also had strategic geographic value to the Russians , Same as Ukraine's location is of strategic value to the west . it wouldnt take much for Ukraine to place nukes in their country after joining NATO, it would be very reasonable for them to do it . Once that happens, Russia is fucked to the wall sideways , theres no possible way of getting them out. Russias back was to the wall in 22, Win lose or draw they had to act or live with the consequences including loseing the entire Black sea fleet and shipping lanes to NATO.