Xtreme Defender

[Edwardteach72]

Kinda not happy with @Willjr75 for getting me to think more and more at the extreme defender.

I am all for innovation and forward thinking, especially for self defense (no secret I wish I had a roland special for EDC), but at the same time have fallen for hollow points mainly only going for either Gold Dots or HST being all I would carry.

There is a lot of gimmick rounds out on the market these days (ie. R.I.P. garbage ) and hollow points have been around and proven for decades.

Well just started my journey into researching the xtreme defender, so far only a little bit into it and the 90 grain +p and +p+ has me excited.

Linked video goes to show an unbelievable consistency of penetration (+p+ 17-18in no matter what) the +p was right around there as well, but the permanent wound cavities are almost the length of the HST whole penetration and much larger around.

As of right now looking at the standard pressure numbers the defender offers a marginal 28FLBS of energy over standard pressure 124g HST but the +p and +p+ are 71flbs and 116flbs respectfully

Deff going to be doing some more research especially hard barrier penetration, but initial info is looking like maybe changing carry ammo (I do enjoy how inexpensive it is to shoot and train with HST, and would like to see if there is a cheaper range load similar to whatever defender I may choose if I do)

 

[gun_slinger_boy]

I did some testing with these a while back. Even at +P loadings the recoil was very light. I have been lazy to get a good holster for my G19 but that will be my carry with 1 in the pipe and 30 on reserve. I think this will be my last carry I go ever go with.

Copper solids testing and settling on the G19

 

[Edwardteach72]

I did some testing with these a while back. Even at +P loadings the recoil was very light. I have been lazy to get a good holster for my G19 but that will be my carry with 1 in the pipe and 30 on reserve. I think this will be my last carry I go ever go with.

Copper solids testing and settling on the G19

Hey nice looks like I have a good read ahead of me thanks

 

[gun_slinger_boy]

I'll just add... the magic of this bullet is that it doesn't deform. The weakness of the typical hollow point is it's deformation. That umbrella that's created in a hollow point is what makes it slow down so much and come short of the target penetration depth. The mushrooming however is what makes the bigger wound channel. You can observe these two things when a hollow point doesn't open up and it acts like a fmj. It meets the target penetration depth but has a poor wound channel.

The solid is able to create an excellent wound channel while still acting like an fmj due to the scallops in the bullet. Instead of relying on the bigger flatter surface area of the mushroom to displace water the solid simply displaces the water around it through the scallop channels. It really acts sort of like a turbine. Think of an umbrella facing you and hitting it with a hose. Now take that same umbrella and fold it all the way up and hitting it from the handle side.

 

[Criticalt]

Paul Harrell has a video where he wasnt really impressed with the marginal FPS increase and the actual penetration into meat of the extreme penetrator, then he realized they meant barrier penetration, not target penetration.
They faired better at barrier penetration than HP and seemed to do more damage.
However, the thing he did not do that others have, is study the wound channel. Thats where many say these Extreme Penetrators and Defenders really shine.
Plus they are very consistent compared to HP expansion.
Again, Pauls tests arent very scientific but they are entertaining.
I have a few boxes of both the Extreme Penetrator and the Extreme Defender, both 90 grain 9mm.
I have not done any testing personally, but I will.

 

[Steal2B]

I too use the machined copper XP and XD bullet variants (Lehigh, Underwood) and found I may like the fluted cast copper ARX bullet in the NOVX self defense rounds prrformance even more in part because of the casing design. Both are great with different solid lighter bullet approaches.
Home - Novxammo

 

[Marine Cpl]

I'm obsessed with researching terminal ballistics online. I've read papers from Dr. Martin Fackler, the FBI, and a few other trauma ER doctors. The general consensus seems to be that they cannot tell what caliber was used based on the wound profile when the bullet could not be recovered.

Dr. Fackler and others also dispel the energy dump myth that's been floating around the internet. Handgun bullets are just too slow for energy dump to make any impact. He also said that from all his years treating combat wounds from rifle rounds in the Navy, it's negligible for those as well. It could happen with a rifle but it would have to be extremely close to a vital.

I believe him as evidenced by the multiple times people have been shot by hollow point pistol rounds in non vital areas in the chest cavity and lived. They weren't knocked out cold. You can see multiple examples of this online in videos. If knock down power and energy dump were a factor in stopping someone, the 115 gr Winchester Silvertip that stopped an inch from the perps heart in the 1986 Miami shootout would have knocked him out and he wouldn't have continued to fight and kill other agents. That's not the only instance where hollow points have failed. They fail everyday in immediately knocking someone out when striking them.

Now as far as bullet diameter goes, that doesn't make an immediate difference either. A shot to a non vital by a .45 the goes through and through compared to a 9mm that does the same, the result is the same. The guy that gets shot with a .45 diameter hole isn't going to bleed out and die any quicker to make a difference than the guy shot with a .355 diameter hole. You'll lose blood at roughly the same negligible rate. During that time the perp has many minutes to die and can continue fighting. Even a .45 ACP that expands to. 80 isn't an immediate stopper unless a vital is struck. The blood loss isn't going to be immediate that the perp gets knocked out. How many times have femoral arteries been struck and the person lives for many minutes until he bleeds out? And that's an artery A shot to flesh isn't going to be any faster.

Shot placement and sufficient penetration to vitals is all that matters when stopping someone in seconds. Minutes don't matter. That's why hollow points aren't ideal in my opinion. They don't penetrate enough in many circumstances.

Prior 2 hollow points being invented and widely used, no one complained about poor barrier penetration, over penetration or stopping power. The. 38, .357, .45, 9mm have killed many people immediately or within seconds when vitals were struck.

For whatever reason, law enforcement is heavily invested in hollow points. I don't know if it's due to minimizing potential over penetration lawsuits or if it's a monkey see monkey do. You know the whole 9mm is no good. 10mm is best. 10mm is too much. .40 is best. .40 is too much. 9mm is best. These Police departments are tripping over themselves following each other. Usually it's a chief that reads a magazine or online forum and makes a decision for the whole department on what ammo to field.

I like these bullets because they are consistent. They don't break up and penetrate the same no matter what common barrier is in front of them.

If you ask me, hollow points give you more problems than any immediate benefit within seconds. (which is all that counts in stopping someone.) you can ever gain from them. About the only thing they help in is over penetration. I don't worry about that either. It wasn't a problem in the past. You are supposed to know your target and beyond. A miss is an over penetrator. Ironically, over penetration isn't an issue if using a rifle or a shotgun.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Paul Harrell has a video where he wasnt really impressed with the marginal FPS increase and the actual penetration into meat of the extreme penetrator, then he realized they meant barrier penetration, not target penetration.
They faired better at barrier penetration than HP and seemed to do more damage.
However, the thing he did not do that others have, is study the wound channel. Thats where many say these Extreme Penetrators and Defenders really shine.
Plus they are very consistent compared to HP expansion.
Again, Pauls tests arent very scientific but they are entertaining.
I have a few boxes of both the Extreme Penetrator and the Extreme Defender, both 90 grain 9mm.
I have not done any testing personally, but I will.

Wound channels don't immediate stop someone. By immediate I mean within seconds. A .678 wound channel isn't going to stop someone within seconds any faster than one that's .355 or .40. They'll bleed out slowly until they die in both cases unless a vital is struck.

Now if one is obsessed with wound channels, which one destroys more tissue? The one that expands to .50 and stops halfway if hit from the side or the one that stays at .355 but goes all the way through?

 

[Criticalt]

Wound channels don't immediate stop someone. By immediate I mean within seconds. A .678 wound channel isn't going to stop someone within seconds any faster than one that's .355 or .40. They'll bleed out slowly until they die in both cases unless a vital is struck.

Now if one is obsessed with wound channels, which one destroys more tissue? The one that expands to .50 and stops halfway if hit from the side or the one that stays at .355 but goes all the way through?

Im really not concerned with all the small details.
I was just reporting what "they" are saying about this ammo.
I know from first hand accounts that alot of this is crap.
A 7.5 grain pellet can kill a grizzly bear if placed properly.
The differences between common handgun ammo is negligible when hitting human flesh.
This new ammo from Underwood is just a non deforming hardball, maybe a gimmick, maybe not.
Until I see it hitting people, all these videos are speculation.
Concerning wound channels.....
Again, placement matters.
A 1 inch channel that does not hit any vitals or arteries, is just a hole that needs plugging.
A larger wound channel slightly improves your odds of hitting a vital, and is less likely to close up behind the channel.
Ive seen alot of bullet holes in humans and every single one of them had the ability to kill a person.
Im less concerened with the caliber or ammo than placement.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Im really not concerned with all the small details.
I was just reporting what "they" are saying about this ammo.
I know from first hand accounts that alot of this is crap.
A 7.5 grain pellet can kill a grizzly bear if placed properly.
The differences between common handgun ammo is negligible when hitting human flesh.
This new ammo from Underwood is just a non deforming hardball, maybe a gimmick, maybe not.
Until I see it hitting people, all these videos are speculation.
Concerning wound channels.....
Again, placement matters.
A 1 inch channel that does not hit any vitals or arteries, is just a hole that needs plugging.
A larger wound channel slightly improves your odds of hitting a vital, and is less likely to close up behind the channel.
Ive seen alot of bullet holes in humans and every single one of them had the ability to kill a person.
Im less concerened with the caliber or ammo than placement.

This ammo is flat nosed with cutouts. It doesn't push flesh to the side like a round nosed ball round would. You can see that in gel and you can see that in this video below where the hole is the same size as his thumb and not .355 in diameter. It didn't pinhole like a ball round would. It crushed through like a flat nosed hard cast would.

 

[togmaster]

The best defensive round is the one that hits its target. I agree with @Criticalt

 

[Marine Cpl]

The best defensive round is the one that hits its target. I agree with @Criticalt

Me too. A .25 acp that reaches the heart is better than a .44 Magnum in the stomach. But it has to penetrate enough as well. Some don't depending on the angle and some fragment when going through a barrier.

 

[Acer-m14]

Screw PETA .. hang up a live hog and hit it in the chest and then do a Quincy ( anyone remember that TV series ) investigation

NY DEC got a guy for killing black bear with a .22lr ... bear went 100 yrds and dropped ..

wish the deer processor would have saved my 270 game king bullet from the front shoulder .. it ran right up the left sides of the ribs .. smashed a few .. skipped a few and hit a few more then went into the shoulder .. no exit .. 50 yrds at the most for the shot .. deer took 3 steps and went to sleep ... while field dressing massive blood filled inside .. when i had the shot it was at rear of the left side rib cage and to the right shoulder .. then you know shit happens .. quick turn at the shot .. i either hit a main artery or vain or the hydro shock just ripped shit apart ..

FK PETA .. do some real testing ..

 

[Toecutter]

And lookie what came in the mail today

 

[gun_slinger_boy]

Do you have a chronograph?

 

[Marine Cpl]

Screw PETA .. hang up a live hog and hit it in the chest and then do a Quincy ( anyone remember that TV series ) investigation

NY DEC got a guy for killing black bear with a .22lr ... bear went 100 yrds and dropped ..

wish the deer processor would have saved my 270 game king bullet from the front shoulder .. it ran right up the left sides of the ribs .. smashed a few .. skipped a few and hit a few more then went into the shoulder .. no exit .. 50 yrds at the most for the shot .. deer took 3 steps and went to sleep ... while field dressing massive blood filled inside .. when i had the shot it was at rear of the left side rib cage and to the right shoulder .. then you know shit happens .. quick turn at the shot .. i either hit a main artery or vain or the hydro shock just ripped shit apart ..

FK PETA .. do some real testing ..

Ask and you shall receive. 4:00 in the video.

 

[Acer-m14]

Ask and you shall receive. 4:35 in the video.

all good ... but its not a center mass shot placement like you would have on a person .. what happens when you hit the breastbone first

 

[Marine Cpl]

all good ... but its not a center mass shot placement like you would have on a person .. what happens when you hit the breastbone first

It would break just like shoulder bone broke in the video.

How about a bear skull? That is bone enough I would think. Bone through both sides.

 

[Jaywmustang]

So anyone try there extreme defenders yet?

 

[gun_slinger_boy]

So anyone try there extreme defenders yet?

I've been carrying them for quite a while now. I loaded some up to make sure they function in my gun and took velocity readings. They worked quite well and the velocities were as advertised. Accurate too. So I loaded up some more and carry them.

 

[Jaywmustang]

I really like how consistent they are in the videos I watched.

 

[gun_slinger_boy]

I really like how consistent they are in the videos I watched.

That's why I decided to carry them. They're good all year around. No need to switch up ammo choice depending on what time of year it is.

 

[Jaywmustang]

That's why I decided to carry them. They're good all year around. No need to switch up ammo choice depending on what time of year it is.

Do u use standard or any of the +P stuff?

 

[gun_slinger_boy]

I used the 90 grain projectiles and loaded them to +P. I should have been more clear on that. When I said I loaded them I meant I made my own ammo. Then I tested and confirmed everything. The 90 grain loads recoil very lightly even at +P velocities.

 

[togmaster]

I used the 90 grain projectiles and loaded them to +P. I should have been more clear on that. When I said I loaded them I meant I made my own ammo. Then I tested and confirmed everything. The 90 grain loads recoil very lightly even at +P velocities.

Where did you find your load data for these projectiles?

 

[gun_slinger_boy]

https://www.lehighdefense.com/colle...xtreme-defense-90gr-bullet?variant=3759414404

Click on load data. It comes up as a popup.

 

[togmaster]

What powder did you use? Right now I'm loading 9mm with Tight Group and they don't have any data.

 

[MilesTeg]

Agreed I dream of working up some defensive loads with BE 86.

 

[gun_slinger_boy]

What powder did you use? Right now I'm loading 9mm with Tight Group and they don't have any data.

CFE Pistol. I'm currently trying to get rid of all my other powders to standardize with CFE powders for both rifle and pistol. These powders are extremely versatile. Then I'll have a few oddballs for things that aren't covered by CFE. Like for 44mag and 50AE and 762x25 and and 300BLK I'll keep H110. For subsonics I'll use trail boss. I hope to have a total of 4 canisters of powder instead of the smorgasbord I have now. If there is a powder that you want to use that lehigh doesn't list you'll have t0 work up your own load.

 

[togmaster]

Agreed I dream of working up some defensive loads with BE 86.

So do I but my concern is I carry a subcompact. BE 86 has a much slower burn rate than Tight Group. A 3" barrel has a lot of shortcomings with velocity and I don't want to handicap it even more.