holdover
.475 A&M Magnum
Trump Tariffs (merged threads)
- Thread starter Blimey
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BDinPutnam
.475 A&M Magnum
holdover
.475 A&M Magnum
I don't think so . If the tariffs aren't paid up front the products cannot cross the border.
Obviously, The Mexicans would pass the expense along to the buyer , and down the line, the buyer would bear the expense. That makes sense. But ultimately , the buyer will not buy it from Mexico when he can get it cheaper elsewhere. And Mexico would still have to front the money to the government to move their high price garbage across the border and increasing their costs. Only now,their garbage is sitting on the shelves and ware houses And re-orders are not coming in . The demand for Mexican garbage has been crippled. Over time the Mexican economy suffers, from an over abundance of products , dropping demand and prices even further ,lowering their GDP.
The mistake is that it is assumed the market will pay the extra expense due to tariffs. The reality is they wont.
“We reject globalism and embrace the doctrine of patriotism,” -Trump
“We will never surrender America’s sovereignty to an unelected, unaccountable bureaucracy.”-Trump
Obviously, The Mexicans would pass the expense along to the buyer , and down the line, the buyer would bear the expense. That makes sense. But ultimately , the buyer will not buy it from Mexico when he can get it cheaper elsewhere. And Mexico would still have to front the money to the government to move their high price garbage across the border and increasing their costs. Only now,their garbage is sitting on the shelves and ware houses And re-orders are not coming in . The demand for Mexican garbage has been crippled. Over time the Mexican economy suffers, from an over abundance of products , dropping demand and prices even further ,lowering their GDP.
The mistake is that it is assumed the market will pay the extra expense due to tariffs. The reality is they wont.
“We reject globalism and embrace the doctrine of patriotism,” -Trump
“We will never surrender America’s sovereignty to an unelected, unaccountable bureaucracy.”-Trump
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Not to start a big argument on economics but: the goal of tariffs is to reduce the importation numbers. This occurs because the demand for the tariffed products decreases as the cost increases (basic supply/demand). So it creates a temporary burden to achieve an eventual desired effect. To say "tariffs are only paid by US consumers" is an over simplification of the economic results by those who in this case are ignorant of the economics or who oppose them for political reasons. (opposed to anything Trump does)
BDinPutnam
.475 A&M Magnum
"The demand for Mexican garbage has been crippled".
You might take a look at the bottom of the seats in your car. You'd be surprised where they were made. And yes, you're right, tariffs are paid at the border- by the company importing the goods. Not by the exporter/seller.
I dont disagree with the macro analysis, @1911guy, I just think so many people are being hoodwinked here in plain daylight and it is practically shocking to see otherwise smart people buy the line they're being sold. If GM's cost to produce a vehicle goes up by 5-25% what do you think they'll do?
Raise the price of vehicles and/or make fewer vehicles? Or just eat the cost out of "patriotism"? Who loses if they make fewer vehicles (or if they can't sell as many so they have to make fewer)?
You might take a look at the bottom of the seats in your car. You'd be surprised where they were made. And yes, you're right, tariffs are paid at the border- by the company importing the goods. Not by the exporter/seller.
I dont disagree with the macro analysis, @1911guy, I just think so many people are being hoodwinked here in plain daylight and it is practically shocking to see otherwise smart people buy the line they're being sold. If GM's cost to produce a vehicle goes up by 5-25% what do you think they'll do?
Raise the price of vehicles and/or make fewer vehicles? Or just eat the cost out of "patriotism"? Who loses if they make fewer vehicles (or if they can't sell as many so they have to make fewer)?
Bustedknees
12-gauge slug (smooth bore)
I'm not sure GM has,much wiggle room left. Their half ton pick-ups are tagged at over 50g now. They lost any claim to patriotism when they took the bail out paid for by those who work in America ..
kev74
20×102mm Vulcan
Some of us are willing to pay higher prices, even if it means tightening our own budgets, in order to be less dependent on other countries.
Obviously, the supply/demand comes ultimately from the consumer. You are right as far as it goes. In the long run however we will be better off as an economy with the reduction in the hoards of illegal immigrants.
holdover
.475 A&M Magnum
They will be forced to raise the price of vehicles. The end result is that GM products become overpriced. they will sit dead on the lots if they are even imported in the first place. The market will not accept it. the demand will halt .People wont buy over priced GM goods Not because of patriotism, but because of costs. the consumer isn't going to lose here, the market will find its price point based on value. And GM knows it:
GM faces particular exposure if these tariffs go into effect because it imports 29% of its components from Mexico. Ford imports 17% and FCA is at 24%, a research note from Deutsche Bank said.
Also, GM builds its new Chevrolet Blazer SUV, many of its Chevrolet Silverado and many GMC Sierra Crew Cab pickups, the Chevrolet Equinox, Chevrolet Trax, and GMC Terrain SUVs all in Mexico.
"Profits from vehicles like the Silverado keep GM's lights on, and if you start to put that at risk, it could be disastrous considering they're already in cost-cutting mode," said Jessica Caldwell, Edmunds' executive director of industry analysis.
spat
.950 JDJ
It doesn't matter who pays the tariffs. The point is that they drive the cost of goods from Mexico up and thereby drive the demand down. Their purpose isn't to regulate or improve the free market, but to weaponize it.
They aren't meant to improve trade, they are a weapon of war.
Complaining that the cost of the tariffs is born by the American consumer is like complaining that the cost of the bombs dropped on the Taliban was born by the American taxpayer. Both are true statements, and while not completely irrelevant they do kind of miss the point.
They aren't meant to improve trade, they are a weapon of war.
Complaining that the cost of the tariffs is born by the American consumer is like complaining that the cost of the bombs dropped on the Taliban was born by the American taxpayer. Both are true statements, and while not completely irrelevant they do kind of miss the point.
holdover
.475 A&M Magnum
Americans arnt going to get hurt at all. They just wont buy 6 dollar avacados.or 80k pick up trucks.theres a shit ton of cheaper alternatives.
The globalits have been fucking the us goverment and people for years,its about time someone one broke it off in thier ass.
Its fucking nonsense that americans will have to pay more,lol,like there isnt plenty of allternatives
The globalits have been fucking the us goverment and people for years,its about time someone one broke it off in thier ass.
Its fucking nonsense that americans will have to pay more,lol,like there isnt plenty of allternatives
Here is the big difference:
You're welcome to live this fantasy that these obstacles to free trade are good and will put food on the American family table and made in America and all that nonsense. Buy whatever you want. I'll look at the reality of the situation and buy what I want. I'm good with that. You spend your money how you wish in my scenario.
In yours, the government will tell you what is best to spend your money on, by force.
That's the 2 proposed scenarios. Free trade, VS. "government knows best."
I know what I want and what works.
holdover
.475 A&M Magnum
You can live in the make believe world where there is equal trade.only its not.equal trade requires lowering the living standard of americans to that of mexican and chineese workers.tarriffs wrre made to protect wokers and companys from unfair trade,like slave labor.
Ok, I will live in that world.
Just don't force me to pay "sin tax" and coerce me into buying one product or another "for the good of society."
(And you guys hate the commies.
)holdover
.475 A&M Magnum
Nobody's telling you what to buy. Your making things up.
Whats happening is that American workers cannot compete with foreign workers . why? safety requirements, insurance requirements, taxes, licensees, fees, regulations, pensions , and the market requirement to pay a certain amount of money to workers.
The government steps in to even the playing field. Because the field is not even.
communists gets free health care and poor working conditions , sometimes free housing and low pay in un safe environments.
Your advocating that Americans lower their standard of living because tariffs are unfair to communists.
You talk about free market, and you cant seem to understand that Communists don't have free trade free markets . They use price fixing . So when you say we should compete with the Chinese, We cant. Or if We choose to do so, We must lower American living standards .
Free trade is a bullshit made up wall st word . Country's have always had free trade and tariffs .This is globalism wrapped up in a pretty word,Not free trade. Marketed and packaged to sell to the public who don't have a god dammed clue about whats happening.Its not what they're telling you it is.
I don't know where you live, but Ive seen first hand what globalism did to my city . I see what's its doing to the country, I see what its doing to Europe.
You can be a nationalist and support your country or you can be a globalist and support global governance and corporations, but you cant be both . Maybe you think you can but you cant, they exclude each other.
Whats happening is that American workers cannot compete with foreign workers . why? safety requirements, insurance requirements, taxes, licensees, fees, regulations, pensions , and the market requirement to pay a certain amount of money to workers.
The government steps in to even the playing field. Because the field is not even.
communists gets free health care and poor working conditions , sometimes free housing and low pay in un safe environments.
Your advocating that Americans lower their standard of living because tariffs are unfair to communists.
You talk about free market, and you cant seem to understand that Communists don't have free trade free markets . They use price fixing . So when you say we should compete with the Chinese, We cant. Or if We choose to do so, We must lower American living standards .
Free trade is a bullshit made up wall st word . Country's have always had free trade and tariffs .This is globalism wrapped up in a pretty word,Not free trade. Marketed and packaged to sell to the public who don't have a god dammed clue about whats happening.Its not what they're telling you it is.
I don't know where you live, but Ive seen first hand what globalism did to my city . I see what's its doing to the country, I see what its doing to Europe.
You can be a nationalist and support your country or you can be a globalist and support global governance and corporations, but you cant be both . Maybe you think you can but you cant, they exclude each other.
holdover
.475 A&M Magnum
Im good with that, just practice what you preach and go live over there. You'll see how god dammed free it is
Nah, it'd be pretty shitty to live over there. I don't like their high taxes and such on imported goods. Not for me.
holdover
.475 A&M Magnum
Enjoy your fantasy world, Now we can sing songs and smoke pot .
You can ignore reality, but you cant ignore the consequence's of ignoring reality -Ann rand
Every day there is more depressing news about the U.S. economy. For example, it has just been announced that Harley-Davidson has decided to open a shiny new assembly plant in India. Meanwhile, formerly great American manufacturing cities such as Detroit have turned into rotting hellholes.
The American people are not being told the truth. The following are 20 reasons why globalization is wrong for America:
#1 American workers are being merged into a global labor pool where they must directly compete for jobs with workers on the other side of the globe that make less than ten percent of what an average American worker makes. In such an environment, it is inevitable that jobs are going to flow away from areas where labor is expensive and to areas where labor is cheaper.
#2 Globalization has caused the U.S. trade deficit to absolutely explode. In 1985, the U.S. trade deficit with China was 6 million dollars for the entire year. In the month of August alone, the U.S. trade deficit with China was over 28 billion dollars.
#3 Today, the United States spends approximately $3.90 on Chinese goods for every $1 that China spends on goods from the United States. This represents a massive transfer of wealth from the American people to China.
#4 According to a new study conducted by the Economic Policy Institute, if the U.S. trade deficit with China continues to increase at its current rate, the U.S. economy will lose over half a million jobs this year alone.
#5 The United States has lost approximately 42,400 factories since 2001.
#6 The United States has lost a staggering 32 percent of its manufacturing jobs since the year 2000.
#7 Even high technology industries are leaving America. Manufacturing employment in the U.S. computer industry is actually lower in 2010 than it was in 1975.
#8 In 1959, manufacturing represented 28 percent of all U.S. economic output. In 2008, it represented only 11.5 percent.
#9 As of the end of 2009, less than 12 million Americans worked in manufacturing. The last time that less than 12 million Americans were employed in manufacturing was in 1941.
#10 With so much manufacturing leaving the United States, is it any wonder why people can’t find jobs? The “official” unemployment rate in the United States has been at nine and a half percent or above for 14 consecutive months.
#11 Today, there are at least 1.5 million “99ers” – those Americans that have completely exhausted all 99 weeks of unemployment benefits and that still do not have jobs.
#12 Our dependence on foreign oil also represents an absolutely shocking transfer of wealth from the American people to the oil exporters of the Middle East. Back in 1980, the United States imported approximately 37 percent of the oil that we use. Now we import nearly 60 percent of the oil that we use.
#13 Energy imports account for about approximately one-fourth of the U.S. trade deficit.
#14 In states such as Mississippi, people spend approximately 6.35 percent of their incomes just on gasoline, according to a recent report by the National Resources Defense Council.
#15 Americans end up paying to support American workers one way or another. Either they buy American-made products and services that provide jobs for American workers, or they pay to support unemployed American workers on welfare. Today, over 42 million Americans are on food stamps. A record number of Americans are receiving long-term unemployment benefits. One way or another, Americans are going to pay to take care of American workers.
#16 The U.S. trade deficit is running about 40 or 50 billion dollars a month in 2010. The United States spends 40 to 50 billion more on goods and services from the rest of the world each month than they spend on goods and services from us. That means that by the end of the year, approximately half a trillion dollars (or more) of our wealth will have left the United States for good.
#17 All of this wealth leaving the United States is having a huge impact on the standard of living of average Americans. Ten years ago, the United States was ranked number one in average wealth per adult. In 2010, the United States has fallen to seventh.
#18 It is now just a matter of time until India is going to pass us as an economic power. In fact, the economy of India is projected to become larger than the U.S. economy by the year 2050.
#19 It is now being projected that China will soon dwarf us as an economic power. One prominent economist now says that the Chinese economy will be three times larger than the U.S. economy by the year 2040. According to one recent study, China could become the global leader in patent filings by next year.
#20 China has been accumulating a gigantic mountain of dollars from all of the wealth we have been sending them each month, and they have been lending massive amounts of money back to us. Over the past few decades, the communist Chinese have been able to accumulate approximately $2.5 trillion in foreign currency reserves, and the U.S. government now owes them close to 900 billion dollars. We constantly have to send top government officials over there to beg them to continue to lend us money. This is a direct threat not only to our financial system, but also to our national security.
So, in light of all of those facts, can anyone out there possibly defend Barack Obama’s position that globalization is good and that we should be happy that we are being merged into a one world economy?
Sadly, there are very, very few politicians in either major political party that will even talk about the negative effects of the emerging one world economy. It is almost as if there is an unspoken consensus that globalism is the future and that it is a good thing for America.
But it is not a good thing for America. Unless fundamental changes are made, America will continue to bleed wealth, will continue to bleed factories and will continue to bleed jobs.
The American people need to wake up and starting saying “NO” to globalization. If we continue to vote for politicians that support merging our economy with economies that allow workers to be paid slave labor wages, then we are going to see even more waves of horrific unemployment and we will continue to see the standard of living of middle class Americans diminish.
This is not a drill. America is being deindustrialized. The greatest economic machine in the history of the world is being dismantled.
Eventually, all of our cities are going to end up looking just like Detroit if we allow this to continue.
Is that what you want?
You can ignore reality, but you cant ignore the consequence's of ignoring reality -Ann rand
Every day there is more depressing news about the U.S. economy. For example, it has just been announced that Harley-Davidson has decided to open a shiny new assembly plant in India. Meanwhile, formerly great American manufacturing cities such as Detroit have turned into rotting hellholes.
The American people are not being told the truth. The following are 20 reasons why globalization is wrong for America:
#1 American workers are being merged into a global labor pool where they must directly compete for jobs with workers on the other side of the globe that make less than ten percent of what an average American worker makes. In such an environment, it is inevitable that jobs are going to flow away from areas where labor is expensive and to areas where labor is cheaper.
#2 Globalization has caused the U.S. trade deficit to absolutely explode. In 1985, the U.S. trade deficit with China was 6 million dollars for the entire year. In the month of August alone, the U.S. trade deficit with China was over 28 billion dollars.
#3 Today, the United States spends approximately $3.90 on Chinese goods for every $1 that China spends on goods from the United States. This represents a massive transfer of wealth from the American people to China.
#4 According to a new study conducted by the Economic Policy Institute, if the U.S. trade deficit with China continues to increase at its current rate, the U.S. economy will lose over half a million jobs this year alone.
#5 The United States has lost approximately 42,400 factories since 2001.
#6 The United States has lost a staggering 32 percent of its manufacturing jobs since the year 2000.
#7 Even high technology industries are leaving America. Manufacturing employment in the U.S. computer industry is actually lower in 2010 than it was in 1975.
#8 In 1959, manufacturing represented 28 percent of all U.S. economic output. In 2008, it represented only 11.5 percent.
#9 As of the end of 2009, less than 12 million Americans worked in manufacturing. The last time that less than 12 million Americans were employed in manufacturing was in 1941.
#10 With so much manufacturing leaving the United States, is it any wonder why people can’t find jobs? The “official” unemployment rate in the United States has been at nine and a half percent or above for 14 consecutive months.
#11 Today, there are at least 1.5 million “99ers” – those Americans that have completely exhausted all 99 weeks of unemployment benefits and that still do not have jobs.
#12 Our dependence on foreign oil also represents an absolutely shocking transfer of wealth from the American people to the oil exporters of the Middle East. Back in 1980, the United States imported approximately 37 percent of the oil that we use. Now we import nearly 60 percent of the oil that we use.
#13 Energy imports account for about approximately one-fourth of the U.S. trade deficit.
#14 In states such as Mississippi, people spend approximately 6.35 percent of their incomes just on gasoline, according to a recent report by the National Resources Defense Council.
#15 Americans end up paying to support American workers one way or another. Either they buy American-made products and services that provide jobs for American workers, or they pay to support unemployed American workers on welfare. Today, over 42 million Americans are on food stamps. A record number of Americans are receiving long-term unemployment benefits. One way or another, Americans are going to pay to take care of American workers.
#16 The U.S. trade deficit is running about 40 or 50 billion dollars a month in 2010. The United States spends 40 to 50 billion more on goods and services from the rest of the world each month than they spend on goods and services from us. That means that by the end of the year, approximately half a trillion dollars (or more) of our wealth will have left the United States for good.
#17 All of this wealth leaving the United States is having a huge impact on the standard of living of average Americans. Ten years ago, the United States was ranked number one in average wealth per adult. In 2010, the United States has fallen to seventh.
#18 It is now just a matter of time until India is going to pass us as an economic power. In fact, the economy of India is projected to become larger than the U.S. economy by the year 2050.
#19 It is now being projected that China will soon dwarf us as an economic power. One prominent economist now says that the Chinese economy will be three times larger than the U.S. economy by the year 2040. According to one recent study, China could become the global leader in patent filings by next year.
#20 China has been accumulating a gigantic mountain of dollars from all of the wealth we have been sending them each month, and they have been lending massive amounts of money back to us. Over the past few decades, the communist Chinese have been able to accumulate approximately $2.5 trillion in foreign currency reserves, and the U.S. government now owes them close to 900 billion dollars. We constantly have to send top government officials over there to beg them to continue to lend us money. This is a direct threat not only to our financial system, but also to our national security.
So, in light of all of those facts, can anyone out there possibly defend Barack Obama’s position that globalization is good and that we should be happy that we are being merged into a one world economy?
Sadly, there are very, very few politicians in either major political party that will even talk about the negative effects of the emerging one world economy. It is almost as if there is an unspoken consensus that globalism is the future and that it is a good thing for America.
But it is not a good thing for America. Unless fundamental changes are made, America will continue to bleed wealth, will continue to bleed factories and will continue to bleed jobs.
The American people need to wake up and starting saying “NO” to globalization. If we continue to vote for politicians that support merging our economy with economies that allow workers to be paid slave labor wages, then we are going to see even more waves of horrific unemployment and we will continue to see the standard of living of middle class Americans diminish.
This is not a drill. America is being deindustrialized. The greatest economic machine in the history of the world is being dismantled.
Eventually, all of our cities are going to end up looking just like Detroit if we allow this to continue.
Is that what you want?
holdover
.475 A&M Magnum
Oh but Im sure you would love the living conditions and the police, and I hear the pay is wonderfull
You're not really selling me on it. I think I'll stick to keeping a distance. But I'll certainly buy their goods.
Kind of like the AKs. I'll buy Russian stuff, don't want to live there.
Or would you like to champion for better Russian working conditions too?
holdover
.475 A&M Magnum
Let the Russians and Chinese and Mexicans live like they want to live.
Acer-m14
20×102mm Vulcan
i just seen that some company's are going back to Detroit .. where are the employees going to live .. in some shit hole shack ..
And let Americans live like they want to live. No tariffs involved.
GOYABEAN
.950 JDJ
Simple solution Militarization of our borders it seems to work in other places you want entrance to our soil try knocking at front door 
Acer-m14
20×102mm Vulcan
Simple solution Militarization of our borders it seems to work in other places you want entrance to our soil try knocking at front door
yep the borders should be a live fire range 24 x 7 ..
holdover
.475 A&M Magnum
Your not selling me either,De-industrialization,loss of hundreds of millions of jobs, increased taxes to make up the loss, lowering of living standards Will never be ""good"" for America. Placing corporate profits above the needs of your country is about as anti American as you can get.
You do know how this is going to end correct? You don't have to be an economy major to see the cash flow ,The economy will eventually have to collapse. Not probably, not might, it will ,with 100% certainty. You simply cannot sustain zero production rates run trade deficits and borrow and print money forever. This country is paying their credit cards with credit cards. Wake the hell up already! Globalization is destroying this country .
At least the fucking Europeans get it , They want out.
You do know how this is going to end correct? You don't have to be an economy major to see the cash flow ,The economy will eventually have to collapse. Not probably, not might, it will ,with 100% certainty. You simply cannot sustain zero production rates run trade deficits and borrow and print money forever. This country is paying their credit cards with credit cards. Wake the hell up already! Globalization is destroying this country .
At least the fucking Europeans get it , They want out.
BDinPutnam
.475 A&M Magnum
So now the enemy of American industry (where you want all those manufacturing jobs to magically appear) is... American industry?
We're going to spend some $31 billion dollars on farm subsidies because of these tariffs which we otherwise would not have had to spend. Or, I suppose, we could not spend the subsidies, those farms go out of business, and Americans either eat imported apples for 8 bucks a pop or dont eat apples at all.
Make Anerica Hungry Again isn't a terribly good slogan.
We're going to spend some $31 billion dollars on farm subsidies because of these tariffs which we otherwise would not have had to spend. Or, I suppose, we could not spend the subsidies, those farms go out of business, and Americans either eat imported apples for 8 bucks a pop or dont eat apples at all.
Make Anerica Hungry Again isn't a terribly good slogan.
holdover
.475 A&M Magnum
On its face, Your correct. But these are no longer American Company's, They are global giants with no allegiance to America nor do they pay their share in taxes. They American in name only. They don't provide jobs for American's, they don't put the same quantity of money into the American economy. Yet they have the protection of American laws , the American military, Access to American markets , and pay a reduced percentage of taxes . They mark prices up an obscene amount on the backs of third world slave labor and do not in any way pass savings on to American markets.
I remember watching the stock market sky rocket after Trump was elected , Im Like, where the fuck is this big boom? Im not seeing shit, Im seeing stores close everywhere and wall st breaking records. The globalists were making money hand over fist, and none of it trickled down to American middle class. They are not doing us any fucking favors
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holdover
.475 A&M Magnum
That's not totally true, the floods and tornados out west have devastated crops and livestock , The trade war didn't help them any either .
BDinPutnam
.475 A&M Magnum
One way or another you are going to wind up paying 8 dollars for an apple. Either in the form of tax payer funded subsidies or in the form of higher prices on imported apples, which will be the only apples available.
Doesn't sound like that's strengthening the industrial backbone of America to me. At all.