You are not citing Red Flag Rules. You are citing firearm purchase rules. Red Flag protects personal identifying documents and when they may be required and how they must be handled. A SS card or even number is not a requirement for the transaction as prescribed by federal law and is therefore improper to collect.
Walmart obtaining your documents illegally????
- Thread starter Chicken Shoot
- Start date
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
But I can require anything and handle it as per the law. All I have to do is follow the regulations of the red flag rules. You don’t have to shop there if you think Walmart isn’t trustworthy enough just the same as you don’t have to give your social security number to a dealership if you know that there has been fraud committed there in the past.
No you can't. Red Flag sets what documents can be required, how they can be used, who can see them, and how they must be safeguarded. If I am a business covered by Red Flag I cannot ask for your SS card, gas bill, high school report card, DD214, and a copy of your bank statement to sell you my product. It is improper. Red Flag Rule is in place to limit identify theft opportunities. Only the pertinent documents may be collected.
repete
.338 Win Mag
Please post a link to these "red flag rules"
Does your browser not have access to google?
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
Yep. Apparently yours doesn’t because if it did, you would see that the red flag laws only apply to financial institutions and creditors.
Walmart extends credit and is therefore covered under the Rule. Ever been asked to open a charge account there?
Also other businesses are covered under different versions of it. Places that handle personal documents. Doctors, lawyers, others.
I know you read 5 seconds of the first result on google, but that doesn't make you an expert in it. I've been through years of training on it.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
You are reaching.Walmart extends credit and is therefore covered under the Rule. Ever been asked to open a charge account there?
Also other businesses are covered under different versions of it. Places that handle personal documents. Doctors, lawyers, others.
I know you read 5 seconds of the first result on google, but that doesn't make you an expert in it. I've been through years of training on it.
Again, you do not know the subject matter.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
And if they are covered, than you have nothing to worry about no?
The Rule limits what documents may be collected and retained, so no, the point is still valid.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
So which is it? Are they a financial institution or creditor that has to abide by the rules or are they not a financial institution or creditor when they sell guns and don’t have to abide by the rules?
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
No. The Red Flags Rule sets out how certain businesses and organizations must develop, implement, and administer their Identity Theft Prevention Programs.
One is not inclusive to the other. They extend credit AND sell other products. You are getting yourself confused.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
What do the red flag rules mandate? Let’s start with that.
See my previous posts.
Celt
.338 Win Mag
Clinton was on the BoD of Walmart last i knew.maybe bloomturd bought 99.9% of wally world stock
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
Except your posts are incorrect. The Red Flags Rule sets out how certain businesses and organizations must develop, implement, and administer their Identity Theft Prevention Programs. So if Walmart as a creditor like you say must abide then what is your issue?
They aren't. That is exactly what I've said earlier. The issue comes when the business starts collecting unnecessary personal identifying information.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
But you just said that they are. Which is it? You seem to be all over the place.
They either must abide by implementing a program to protect your identity because they are a financial institution or creditor or they aren’t and the law doesn’t apply to them meaning that they don’t have to implement a program to protect your identity.
Pick one. And then after you do, your choices are to shop there with confidence or not shop there due to lack of confidence.
But you got to pick one. Or you can just report me for trolling like everyone else who doesn’t like to hear the truth does.
The only Federal form that a buyer is required to complete is a Form 4473.
There are only two ways to complete an ATF Form 4473:
1. Handwritten, on an actual Form 4473.
2. e4473, which is form filling software. After you have completed the form the dealer prints out a copy.
In neither case is the buyers Social Security number required. It is stated right there on Question 8 that it is optional.
If Wal-Mart is using a different 4473 system it would have to be approved by ATF......and they haven't.
There are only two ways to complete an ATF Form 4473:
1. Handwritten, on an actual Form 4473.
2. e4473, which is form filling software. After you have completed the form the dealer prints out a copy.
In neither case is the buyers Social Security number required. It is stated right there on Question 8 that it is optional.
If Wal-Mart is using a different 4473 system it would have to be approved by ATF......and they haven't.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
Now we are back to the beginning. Those are the minimum requirements as stated earlier. A business can implement further requirements not less. That is why some gun businesses require a letter from your department if you are a cop authorizing you to be able to purchase a gun. That isn’t federal law.
I said my own posts were wrong? No. I didn't. You are getting confused.
They do have to implement the program and follow the rules within. Being governed by Red Flag Rules doesn't mean that you can obtain and retain documents when not necessary. You seem to not be getting it. To Abide means to follow the rules AND safeguard the required documents.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
Read this from the horses mouth itself. Nowhere does it say that a business or person is prohibited from obtaining documents.
Fighting Identity Theft with the Red Flags Rule: A How-To Guide for Business
An estimated nine million Americans have their identities stolen each year. Identity thieves may drain accounts, damage credit, and even put medical treatment at risk. The cost to business — left with unpaid bills racked up by scam artists — can be staggering, too.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
No. You are getting confused. I’m saying that your posts are wrong. The red flag rules are for implementation of security not for denial of asking for documents.
Read this from the horses mouth itself. Nowhere does it say that a business or person is prohibited from obtaining documents.
Fighting Identity Theft with the Red Flags Rule: A How-To Guide for Business
An estimated nine million Americans have their identities stolen each year. Identity thieves may drain accounts, damage credit, and even put medical treatment at risk. The cost to business — left with unpaid bills racked up by scam artists — can be staggering, too.www.ftc.gov
- Does the Red Flags Rule require that I use Social Security numbers to verify my customers' identity?
No, the Red Flags Rule does not require that you use Social Security numbers or any other specific identifying information.
It is bad practice and a potential violation to collect more information than you need. If you are asking for a Social Security number, reconsider whether your business really needs to collect and maintain it.
Part of being in compliance is not to have documents in your possession other than those that are necessary. I've been trained on it for years, not reading bullet points on the first page I see. I've even been sent to school for it and have a huge binder on it somewhere.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
You realize that what you just copied and pasted only applies to those who have to abide by the rule right?
- How do my obligations under other laws affect the implementation of my Identity Theft Prevention Program?
Your Program under the Red Flags Rule should be consistent with other relevant legal, professional, and ethical obligations. This would include laws relating to the provision of medical treatment or the provision and termination of utility services. Indeed, the Rule anticipates the need to accommodate obligations like these by requiring that a Program include only "reasonable" policies and procedures, and by ensuring that each group has the flexibility to tailor a Program to the nature of its business.
It's pretty easy to see copies of SS cards when they are not required are not "reasonable"
Yes and Walmart has to abide.