Could (*Permit) Restrictions Actually Be Law?

[Chevusa]

I hope this doesn't turn into a pissing match, but something was brought to my attention and I wanted to share it with everyone.

This is Penal Law 400.00-6 License: validity.
Any license issued pursuant to this section
shall be valid notwithstanding the provisions of any local law or
ordinance. No license shall be transferable to any other person or
premises. A license to carry or possess a pistol or revolver, not
otherwise limited as to place or time of possession, shall be effective
throughout the state...

Now before you start stomping your feet and having a temper tantrum, let's actually read and discuss this. Set aside your feelings for what you want to believe and throw that advice someone on the internet gave you all those years ago out the window for now.

"Limited to place and time of possession". What could this mean? Well, place could apply if you have a premises permit. You only have a permit to have a gun at your home. Ok that's place.

How about time? The easiest way to explain it is if your permit is restricted to business use. You are only to carry (per this Penal Law) during business hours. That is the "time" portion.

So how if "time" applies to the business restriction would it not apply to the other restrictions such as hiking, target shooting, hunting...?

The "time" would be while you are engaged in these activities.

This information suggests that a restricted permit being misused (possessing outside of place or time allowed) could possibly mean the permit is invalid, as the Penal Law says.

We aren't going to get into "prove a case" and other typical theatrics when this subject comes up. Obviously we don't have access to all court records throughout the entire state. Let's just discuss what is actually written in the Penal Law I have provided.

 

[Carlos Hathcock]

Laws are written to be vague for a reason.

 

[Saltwater60]

It also says valid through out the state so why isn’t my permit valid in NYC?

Also otherwise means in other respects or apart from place or time of possession.

Essentially I read it that this state law supersedes NYC law saying I can’t possess my gun in their city. I also read that I can have a gun in places other than the place and time I’m physically in possession of that gun at that moment.

 

[Darth]

Business carry is a different type of license, as is premises.

CCWs are type (f) have and carry concealed, without regard to employment or
place of possession, by any person when proper cause exists for the
issuance thereof;

 

[Chevusa]

Business carry is a different type of license, as is premises.

CCWs are type (f) have and carry concealed, without regard to employment or
place of possession, by any person when proper cause exists for the
issuance thereof;

Business falls under type F as well. There is a separate business premisses license - which would be another “place” But the common business license given out are the concealed carry limited to business hours and activities.

 

[Darth]

Business falls under type F as well. There is a separate business premisses license - which would be another “place” But the common business license given out are the concealed carry limited to business hours and activities.

F literally says without regard to employment.

 

[Chevusa]

It also says valid through out the state so why isn’t my permit valid in NYC?

Also otherwise means in other respects or apart from place or time of possession.

Essentially I read it that this state law supersedes NYC law saying I can’t possess my gun in their city. I also read that I can have a gun in places other than the place and time I’m physically in possession of that gun at that moment.

The next section after the one I provided here deals with NYC. It is specifically laid out that it’s off limits or invalid there.

 

[Chevusa]

F literally says without regard to employment.

Correct. Meaning you’re not required to work at one of the above mentioned places previously in the law.

 

[Darth]

Correct. Meaning you’re not required to work at one of the above mentioned places previously in the law.

Uhh, no. It means employment is irrelevant. You can have and carry concealed and it's not limited to place or type of possession.

 

[Chevusa]

Uhh, no. It means employment is irrelevant. You can have and carry concealed and it's not limited to place or type of possession.

We are getting away from “time” of possession. It’s in the penal law that the license is invalid if carrying outside of the limitations of place or time. A business is a “place” so time wouldn’t apply of course. We are trying to figure out the “time(s)” the license is invalid.

 

[Darth]

We are getting away from “time” of possession. It’s in the penal law that the license is invalid if carrying outside of the limitations of place or time. A business is a “place” so time wouldn’t apply of course. We are trying to figure out the “time(s)” the license is invalid.

F is not limited to a time.

 

[Chevusa]

F is not limited to a time.

So what is? A place cannot be. Where do you think time applies?

 

[Darth]

So what is? A place cannot be. Where do you think time applies?

No idea, but not at F.

 

[Chevusa]

F isn’t limited to place, but makes no mention of not being limited to time.

 

[Darth]

F isn’t limited to place, but makes no mention of not being limited to time.

Right, there is no provision in F for limiting the time of possession.

 

[Chevusa]

Right, there is no provision in F for limiting the time of possession.

What I meant was that f says specifically it is not limited to place, why doesn’t it also say it’s not limited to time if that’s the case? We have this in the same section of the penal law that says the license is invalid if carried outside of the time allowed. Where else could that logically apply if not here?

 

[Darth]

What I meant was that f says specifically it is not limited to place, why doesn’t it also say it’s not limited to time if that’s the case? We have this in the same section of the penal law that says the license is invalid if carried outside of the time allowed. Where else could that logically apply if not here?

"While in" your house. That covers time and place.

"While at" work. That covers time and place.

No need to mention time in F.

 

[Chevusa]

"While in" your house. That covers time and place.

"While at" work. That covers time and place.

No need to mention time in F.

Doesn’t make sense to me. Premises permits are places. Time wouldn’t apply to them. The permit wouldn’t be invalid after midnight right? Also this section is discussing where in the state the permit is valid or not. Of course it is valid in your home or business. Those places don’t move. Time is still an unanswered question.

 

[Darth]

Doesn’t make sense to me. Premises permits are places. Time wouldn’t apply to them. The permit wouldn’t be invalid after midnight right? Also this section is discussing where in the state the permit is valid or not. Of course it is valid in your home or business. Those places don’t move. Time is still an unanswered question.

"You may possess a firearm at any time you are in your home."

"You may possess a firearm at any time while on the clock in your place of employment."

Either way, your quoted section discusses permits that are not limited by time or place of possession. F falls under that category.

 

[Chevusa]

"While in" your house. That covers time and place.

"While at" work. That covers time and place.

No need to mention time in F.

Another thing to add - “while at” work doesn’t make sense because business permits are premises not carry permits so the weapon must remain at the business at all times.

I have seen the carry permit issued with business restrictions. That is logically where the time would apply.

 

[Darth]

Another thing to add - “while at” work doesn’t make sense because business permits are premises not carry permits so the weapon must remain at the business at all times.

I have seen the carry permit issued with business restrictions. That is logically where the time would apply.

Then it would not be issued under section F.

 

[Mr. terzmo]

A license to carry or possess a pistol or revolver, not
otherwise limited as to place or time of possession, shall be effective
throughout the state...

So why is 'permission to carry in NY city" in affect ? It's not effective throughout the State

 

[Chevusa]

Then it would not be issued under section F.

They are though. It is a common restriction. It is listed as a restriction you may apply for.

Also the business premises permit is only available to a business owner not employee.

 

[Chevusa]

A license to carry or possess a pistol or revolver, not
otherwise limited as to place or time of possession, shall be effective
throughout the state...

So why is 'permission to carry in NY city" in affect ? It's not effective throughout the State

The next section of the law says you are not valid in NYC. I didn’t include that because that’s not what we are discussing here. We all know you can’t go to NYC. This subject however is clear as mud.

 

[enigma]

You singled out a section of the law without considering how it was tied to another piece.

This section...

"Any license issued pursuant to this section
shall be valid notwithstanding the provisions of any local law or
ordinance. No license shall be transferable to any other person or
premises. A license to carry or possess a pistol or revolver, not
otherwise limited as to place or time of possession, shall be effective
throughout the state... "

... begins with "Any license issued pursuant to this section". Section 2 describes the types of licenses that can be issued. In order to even get to the section you quoted, we have to choose a license type that would have been issued.

(a) have and possess in his dwelling by a householder;
(b) have and possess in his place of business by a merchant or storekeeper;
(c) have and carry concealed while so employed by a messenger employed
by a banking institution or express company;
(d) have and carry concealed by a justice of the supreme court in the first or second
judicial departments, or by a judge of the New York city civil court or
the New York city criminal court;
(e) have and carry concealed while so employed by a regular employee of an institution of the state, or of any
county, city, town or village, under control of a commissioner of
correction of the city or any warden, superintendent or head keeper of
any state prison, penitentiary, workhouse, county jail or other
institution for the detention of persons convicted or accused of crime
or held as witnesses in criminal cases, provided that application is
made therefor by such commissioner, warden, superintendent or head
keeper;
(f) have and carry concealed, without regard to employment or
place of possession, by any person when proper cause exists for the
issuance thereof; and
(g) have, possess, collect and carry antique
pistols which are defined as follows:

If you had been issued license type B, the limitation on place from your quoted text would apply.
If you had been issued license type C, the limitation on time ("while so employed") would apply.
If you were issued license type F, neither time nor place limitations would apply. Because the quoted text says "Not otherwise limited", and license type F is not limited.

 

[Chevusa]

That was a very well thought out reply. Thanks for your input.

 

[Marine Cpl]

If you read all the types of licenses, some are limited to time and possession. Like you say, places are self explanatory. The ones that say in a dwelling or shop are the ones restricted to places. Regarding time, the ones that are issued for when doing a certain thing. Once that thing isn’t being done, the license is no longer valid for you. These licenses are the ones issued when being employed as a messenger or by an employee of the state, city, town, village, ect by a warden, commissioner, superintendent for the detention of persons accused of crimes , ect. Or while being a certain judge. That’s the time part. While being employed and doing a certain action. P

Then comes our license. To have and carry concealed without regard to employment or place of possession (unlike the licenses above), by any person when proper cause exists for the issuance thereof;

Those are our category of licenses regardless if a judge stamps on it for hunting only on the 3rd solstice in a football field. We fit into no other category of license issued. The problem is that judges stamp whatever they want despite the law another corrupt judge ruled on an appeal that he could creating case law despite what the law says. However, since the law does not say any of that, you cannot face any criminal charges. You can only face a revocation. That’s spelled out in the law.

 

[Chevusa]

Here's an interesting tie in worth reading:

We agree with the courts below that the licensing officers' power to determine the existence of "proper cause" for the issuance of a license necessarily and inherently includes the power to restrict the use to the purposes that justified the issuance. Without such a power to condition, the licensing officer's authority to allow possession of a handgun only for proper cause would be rendered meaningless and the obvious regulatory purpose of the statute would be frustrated.

Moreover, petitioners' argument is inconsistent with the regulatory scheme of Penal law § 400.00. The other licenses allowed by the statute are narrowly circumscribed to the circumstances justifying their issuance (see, e.g., subd 2[a] [license to possess in dwelling]; subd 2[license to possess in place of business]; subd 2[e] [license to possess during certain employment]). Were we to read the carry license of subdivision 2(f) to allow possession of firearms generally once good cause was shown, there would be no reason for applicants to seek the more restrictive licenses enumerated in the statute when they could just as easily qualify for the broader carry license. Clearly, the legislative intent behind subdivision 2(f) was to create a license co-equal to the other licenses, not one that would render the other licenses superfluous. - NY Appellate Court

 

[Deplorable Me]

Laws are written to be vague for a reason.

It keeps lawyers employed.

 

[Marine Cpl]

And we all know how courts rule with emotion and or agenda despite what laws are written on paper or despite the 2A. That ruling makes no sense whatsoever and the Penal Law makes no sense. If they didn’t want more restrictive licenses along with broader licenses, they should not have included the broader license.

IE. They fucked up by adding a broader license. But since they need it, it was added. It isn’t taken away because then they cannot carry. So instead of changing the law because it will affect them, they instead rule unjustly with film flam logic.