Buckshot identification, please

[tapper3]

Was given a couple dozen rounds of this buckshot - loose, no box. Looking on the Federal website and various other places I find nothing that looks like this.

Note what appears to be some sort of sealant on the primer and the rolled crimp & overshot card (?) instead of the typical folded crimp.

Anyone seen these before and can tell anything about them?

 

[JackNeat]

@OnSight Firearms Training ^^

 

[Criticalt]

This will really help you.
Ive seen those exact shells before.
I have zero info.
Youre welcome.

 

[BerettaGuy]

Magnum load maybe?

 

[tony]

Determine the size (2-3/4", 3", or 3-1/2") and fire in a shotgun with the correct chamber. If you are concerned send them all to me for testing...

 

[tapper3]

Magnum load maybe?

Good possibility.

The sealant and the crimp are what's puzzling me. I have never seen either of those on commercial shotshells, buckshot or otherwise.

 

[tapper3]

Determine the size (2-3/4", 3", or 3-1/2") and fire in a shotgun with the correct chamber. If you are concerned send them all to me for testing...

I appreciate the offer but first have to find out if these are some super special extremely rare rounds made for and only issued to secret commando units.

Only then will I be able to determine the proper amount to charge you for the privilege of conducting said testing.

 

[tony]

@tapper3, my secret commando unit was disbanded in 1975 and my secret clearance has been downgraded to "just about common knowledge"...

In all seriousness, that is a different crimp and if they were any type of "magnum" or "LE" I would think they would be so marked. I did a little searching and came up with nothing other than the crimp being a "roll crimp with an overshot card".

 

[Chevusa]

They are Federal Law Enforcement rounds. The primer sealant is a dead giveaway.

 

[tapper3]

They are Federal Law Enforcement rounds. The primer sealant is a dead giveaway.

Thanks. This jibes somewhat with a story that went with them.

Would they have been military issue as well?

 

[Vapor]

Good possibility.

The sealant and the crimp are what's puzzling me. I have never seen either of those on commercial shotshells, buckshot or otherwise.

That crimp isn't uncommon in Europe. S and B, Rio, and estate French buckshot all use that crimp.

 

[Acer-m14]

send them to me .. my Moss 500AT pump will eat them and shoot out freedom

" They are Federal Law Enforcement rounds. The primer sealant is a dead giveaway. " dang you @Chevusa

 

[HEX]

They are Federal Law Enforcement rounds. The primer sealant is a dead giveaway.

Not too sure about that. I'm not familiar with any with these markings or that roll crimp. I'm not sure what these are.

 

[Deplorable Me]

I've not seen roll crimps in years on buckshot. Specifically for sealant and water proofing. The waterproof stuff in my stash has heat sealed crimps. I'd be interested to know if there's buffer powder loaded in the shot which is advertised as long range.

Primer sealant is found on waterfowl shells but obviously these are not for ducks.

 

[mgunner]

Try contacting Federal and see if you can email them pictures, maybe they can help you identify them.

 

[enigma]

The duck symbol on the headstamp and shell makes me think these are not military or police loads. I'm thinking late 60's or 70's Hi-Power loads. Federal was using the flying mallard with "Made in the USA" on their headstamps back then. Their advertising pamphlet from around that time suggests the Hi-Power load could also be called a Maximum load.



Here are some sites I found to help piece together my thoughts above:

Metaldetecting - Federal headstamps
Archive of Federal cartridge website
Ebay sale of Federal pamphlet
Shotgunworld

 

[tapper3]

Previously I mentioned that a story came with these shells when they were given to me. I held it back to see if anyone would come out with a similar story. But @Deplorable Me touched on it when he said, "I've not seen roll crimps in years on buckshot. Specifically for sealant and water proofing".

I had assumed that is what the type of crimping would be for and the primer sealant even more so.

The guy who gave them to me does "clean-outs" for people and estates. He told me that the guy he got them from claimed they were given to him by a friend who was a former Navy SEAL and were for use in frogman stuff.

I initially figured this was bullshit but then got to wondering - who would need waterproof buckshot? Someone who did all their deer hunting in the swamps? Or could it be..............?

@mgunner that's some good advice. I guess I'll hit up Federal and see if they will solve the mystery. I'll post their response if I get one.

And @enigma that's a lot of research right there. Thanks for that.

 

[tapper3]

Update: I sent an inquiry to Federal and they responded by saying those were manufactured from 1975 to 1986. Without a lot number from a box they can't narrow that down.

They did not explain (yet) the purpose of the roll crimp / primer sealer configuration. I'm hoping my follow up email will bring that forth.

 

[Deplorable Me]

Update: I sent an inquiry to Federal and they responded by saying those were manufactured from 1975 to 1986. Without a lot number from a box they can't narrow that down.

They did not explain (yet) the purpose of the roll crimp / primer sealer configuration. I'm hoping my follow up email will bring that forth.

Through some specialty shotgun reloading sources you can still get the equipment to do roll crimps. I've seen them a lot on old paper hulls, it may be a transitional thing. Once manufacturers figured out the capability of plastic hulls the roll crimp became obsolete (theory). Shop Rifle & Shotgun Reloading Supplies | Dies | Bullets | Hulls | Wads | Powder - Precision Reloading

PS: Just remembered, a lot of slugs are roll crimped still. These are generally the smooth bore type slugs w/exposed lead.

Reloading: A beginner's guide to roll crimping shotshells :: Guns.com

In certain shotshell loading circumstances, it is advantageous to apply a roll crimp rather than the more common fold crimp.

www.guns.com

 

[Deplorable Me]

PSS: Your photo shows some shells that are in really good condition for their potential age. Can you use a magnet on the head to see if it's steel or brass?

 

[tapper3]

PSS: Your photo shows some shells that are in really good condition for their potential age. Can you use a magnet on the head to see if it's steel or brass?

Steel.

 

[Deplorable Me]

Steel.

Well stored ammo.

 

[tapper3]

I thought they were brass until you suggested the magnet.

 

[tapper3]

Update #2

Heard back from Federal again...................

"It was just a different way to load the buckshot. It could have been how the machine was set up at that time and then engineers changed it due to finding a faster/more efficient way to manufacture them."

No mention of SEAL teams. LOL

 

[tapper3]

@Deplorable Me

Here's a couple more roll crimped shells for ya. Obviously a little older.

On the left is a 20 gauge Remington UMC low base, looks like #6 shot. And the slug is a 16 gauge Winchester Super Speed. Both paper and both 2-1/4".

 

[mgunner]

Through some specialty shotgun reloading sources you can still get the equipment to do roll crimps. I've seen them a lot on old paper hulls, it may be a transitional thing. Once manufacturers figured out the capability of plastic hulls the roll crimp became obsolete (theory). Shop Rifle & Shotgun Reloading Supplies | Dies | Bullets | Hulls | Wads | Powder - Precision Reloading

PS: Just remembered, a lot of slugs are roll crimped still. These are generally the smooth bore type slugs w/exposed lead.

Reloading: A beginner's guide to roll crimping shotshells :: Guns.com

In certain shotshell loading circumstances, it is advantageous to apply a roll crimp rather than the more common fold crimp.

www.guns.com

I was wondering if the roll crimped shells might have been reloads. I don't reload shotgun but when I was looking into buying a reloading press last year, I came across shotgun reloading presses. Just out of curiosity I looked into it and I saw some inexpensive options to reload shotgun shells. One that kept coming up was a small lathe like machine that puts a roll crimp on the shells.

 

[Deplorable Me]

I was wondering if the roll crimped shells might have been reloads. I don't reload shotgun but when I was looking into buying a reloading press last year, I came across shotgun reloading presses. Just out of curiosity I looked into it and I saw some inexpensive options to reload shotgun shells. One that kept coming up was a small lath like machine that puts a roll crimp on the shells.

My gut feeling is the hulls must be previously loaded for fold crimp or roll crimp.

https://krets.jagareforbundet.se/hylte_unnaryd/files/2011/09/2004AlliantPowderSM.pdf

Look on page 38. I think you need special cards and specialty wads but looks like a fold crimp. The newer Alliant Powder catalogs don't show buckshot data.

Years ago you could get 12 gauge dies for use on a single station press. Reloading was slow and tedious. MEC non-indexing are a pretty good investment for shotgun reloading; about 100/hr.