Virginia cops pepper-sprayed Black and Latino Army officer who had hands raised during traffic stop, video shows

What might or might not fly in court is up to a jury to decide. If someone feels like they are about to be killed and they defend themselves with dpf then the saying "better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6 applies". Just count on the standards being higher if its someone in LE

GOPerfect said:

Why were you stopped?

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Wife got dui, I wasn't the driver, I did get the insurance, reg, her drivers lic, out and had the window down told the cop standing next to the car , two cops were with the wife, that here is the paper work you will need to fill out your report. No answer starts walking away, so I open my door stand up and said look I've got the paperwork you need, 20 min. had gone by from the start of them asking her to walk, say the alphabet backwards, I was ready to have the car towed and catch a ride home. The cop stops walking and said get back in the car I said ok turned, then he jumped me and cuffed me, I followed every order except giving my social security number and where I worked. Then the feet back started.
Filled a lawsuit and everything went away magically, except had my pistols gone for a year and paid an xtra $300 in cash to the antigun judge j kevin mulroy (who would got drunk and wave his 45 around in a bar until the cops came and drove him home, more than once),
Spent the night in jail, got out my cellphone battery dead, coin was turned into bills so was short for pay phone anything to screw with you, shitty of Syracuse pd.
This is where I found out talking with cops can be seen as resisting, have not had much respect for them since; you must earn it and it looks like they could care less.

imo. these are two F.... dumb ass cops. Officer crocker proceeds to stop the suv because he didn't see a license plate on the suv. Officer gutierrez then joins the traffic stop. Watch the video, at 3:55 as officer Crocker gets out of his patrol car and draws his weapon.. I'm watching this on a video and I can see the temporary license plate taped to the back window top right corner.
So, as a cop.. You pull over the suv for no license plate. The suv stops in the gas station where it's well lite. Don't you look to see if there is a temp lic tape to the back window? Instead crocker draws his gun and starts yelling at the driver to get out of the vehicle.
officer crocker excuse in his report was the "window was extremely tinted" (All SUV rear windows are tinted from the factory.) extremely tinted my ass! How is it that I can spot the temporary license taped to the rear window on a youtube video and Crocker can't. Theses two cops over reacted and should not be allowed to wear a badge. Their dept. felt the situation was handled improperly and officer gutierrez was fired and crocker was disciplined & sent for additional training.

The two cops said if you listened it would have been a lot easier. If these two morons bother to look and see the temp lic on the back window and handled it differently this would have never have happened either.

My guess is officer crocker got his panties in a bunch when the suv didn't pull over right away on the dark road and radio in "high risk traffic stop".
I don't blame the Lt for not wanting to stop on a dark road and driving to the gas station. Maybe the Lt was concern for his safety and wanted to stop at well lite area where there were other people around.

fresch said:

Wife got dui, I wasn't the driver, I did get the insurance, reg, her drivers lic, out and had the window down told the cop standing next to the car , two cops were with the wife, that here is the paper work you will need to fill out your report. No answer starts walking away, so I open my door stand up and said look I've got the paperwork you need, 20 min. had gone by from the start of them asking her to walk, say the alphabet backwards, I was ready to have the car towed and catch a ride home. The cop stops walking and said get back in the car I said ok turned, then he jumped me and cuffed me, I followed every order except giving my social security number and where I worked. Then the feet back started.
Filled a lawsuit and everything went away magically, except had my pistols gone for a year and paid an xtra $300 in cash to the antigun judge j kevin mulroy (who would got drunk and wave his 45 around in a bar until the cops came and drove him home, more than once),
Spent the night in jail, got out my cellphone battery dead, coin was turned into bills so was short for pay phone anything to screw with you, shitty of Syracuse pd.
This is where I found out talking with cops can be seen as resisting, have not had much respect for them since; you must earn it and it looks like they could care less.

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We should meet up someday, maybe I can change your mind a bit!

Mak44 said:

imo. these are two F.... dumb ass cops. Officer crocker proceeds to stop the suv because he didn't see a license plate on the suv. Officer gutierrez then joins the traffic stop. Watch the video, at 3:55 as officer Crocker gets out of his patrol car and draws his weapon.. I'm watching this on a video and I can see the temporary license plate taped to the back window top right corner.
So, as a cop.. You pull over the suv for no license plate. The suv stops in the gas station where it's well lite. Don't you look to see if there is a temp lic tape to the back window? Instead crocker draws his gun and starts yelling at the driver to get out of the vehicle.
officer crocker excuse in his report was the "window was extremely tinted" (All SUV rear windows are tinted from the factory.) extremely tinted my ass! How is it that I can spot the temporary license taped to the rear window on a youtube video and Crocker can't. Theses two cops over reacted and should not be allowed to wear a badge. Officer gutierrez was fired for the way he handled the situation. Crocker should be fired too.
The two cops said if you listened it would have been a lot easier. WTF. IF you two F... morons bother to look and see the temp lic taped to the back window and politely ask for his license and registration, this would never have happened.

My guess is officer crocker got his panties in a bunch when the suv didn't pull over right away on the dark road and radio in "high risk traffic stop".
I don't blame the Lt for not wanting to stop on a dark road and driving to the gas station. Maybe the Lt was concern for his safety and wanted to stop at well lite area where there were other people around.

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So, I was not there and maybe there were sights, sounds and smells that we cannot get from a video; but, from what I have seen, I would have acted differently. Much differently.

As a driver, I would have acted much differently as well.

We still don't know what happened leading up to this stop, was this guy driving for 2 miles with a cop on the loudspeaker telling him to pull over? Or was it just a short distance.
I'm probably gonna say it was short , if there was evidence of this guy taking cops for a ride they would have released video of it immediately.

Celt said:

Their response was NOT reasonable, but would a rational and reasonable person believe they were armed robbers or just douchebag cops? I think MOST people would think they are douchebag cops. Thats all Im saying, its an important distinction if ever someone finds themselves in that situation.

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I'm going home to my family at night.

It works for them.

Darth said:

I'm going home to my family at night.

It works for them.

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Don't get me wrong, im not saying to sit there and do nothing if you generally feel you're about to be killed by anyone. Just be certain you're being rational and not irrational about the reality of whether or not the person is posing a deadly threat.

I do not know anyone, in any profession who does not have the goal of going home to their family after work.

FRB said:

The guy did have an attitude I did not like, but the cops... come on, no excuse for how they reacted NONE ZERO. Where is their respect?

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Like I said, they would have been great if he did one thing correct.....he refused to pull over, refused to get out and refused to obey.
Im not a huge fan of obeying but, like some here, im not going to just say....men in costumes, and should not have to obey....and the such. The facts are that we are a nations of laws and disagreeing with them isnt the point.
Believing the cops are just revenue collectors and men in costumes isnt gonna get you far when they demand you obey, you will lose every time.
This small rant was not aimed at you obviously..
Anyways, over the last few years the cops havent seen much respect and there have been far more officers injured and killed in the line of duty due to this new leftist, BLM, Antifa disrespect for law enforcement.
They did not know who this guy was....even after he said he was military, he could have been lying.....ive seen a lot of stolen valor recently.
Did you hear the young cop say, "just get out of the car so we can talk"?
He said it in a " come on man" tone if you know what I mean.
The other cop was a bit over the top but ive seen these type of stops end with the cops getting a gun in their face.
This was a traffic thing, whats the big deal?
You pull over when you see the lights, the cops come over and do their business and you drive away. Due to the very minimal infractions, he would have walked away with a warning....and probably a thank you for serving.
But nooooooo, he had to be a douche.
To answer your question....with the mass hate for the cops lately, they were just being careful. If he would have stopped when he saw the lights, he would have been fune.
If he would have got out of his car when asked, he might have been told to get on the ground and cuffed.....then cuffs removed and on his way.
He did everything wrong.
Ive seen many videos of cops pulling over other cops and military.....after a few minutes of talking, everything is cool.
As for the "just driving to a well lighted area" defense......thats for women IMO.

Celt said:

I get that. And I know that there are cases where criminals dress up like police or UPS delivery guys, etc... but the key is would a "reasonable" person think the same way.

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People also dress up like Army LT all the time. So the "they disrespected an army LT" doesnt carry much weight.

With all ive posted here, I will remind everyone that im one of the most critical of the cops on this site. Ive posted many, many times about their bullying tactics and their flat out illegal behavior. Ive also posted many times that I wish they did away with cops, or at least limited them to coming when they are called.....no patrolling and fishing for violations to pad the coffers.
That said, I dont see any issue with what they did here, the laws being what they are.

GOPerfect said:

I do not know anyone, in any profession who does not have the goal of going home to their family after work.

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Same. Yet cops feel the need to use it as justification for committing illegal acts. That's a difference.

Celt said:

Don't get me wrong, im not saying to sit there and do nothing if you generally feel you're about to be killed by anyone. Just be certain you're being rational and not irrational about the reality of whether or not the person is posing a deadly threat.

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Again, the only people being irrational here have been identified.

Criticalt said:

Like I said, they would have been great if he did one thing correct.....he refused to pull over, refused to get out and refused to obey.
Im not a huge fan of obeying but, like some here, im not going to just say....men in costumes, and should not have to obey....and the such. The facts are that we are a nations of laws and disagreeing with them isnt the point.
Believing the cops are just revenue collectors and men in costumes isnt gonna get you far when they demand you obey, you will lose every time.
This small rant was not aimed at you obviously..
Anyways, over the last few years the cops havent seen much respect and there have been far more officers injured and killed in the line of duty due to this new leftist, BLM, Antifa disrespect for law enforcement.
They did not know who this guy was....even after he said he was military, he could have been lying.....ive seen a lot of stolen valor recently.
Did you hear the young cop say, "just get out of the car so we can talk"?
He said it in a " come on man" tone if you know what I mean.
The other cop was a bit over the top but ive seen these type of stops end with the cops getting a gun in their face.
This was a traffic thing, whats the big deal?
You pull over when you see the lights, the cops come over and do their business and you drive away. Due to the very minimal infractions, he would have walked away with a warning....and probably a thank you for serving.
But nooooooo, he had to be a douche.
To answer your question....with the mass hate for the cops lately, they were just being careful. If he would have stopped when he saw the lights, he would have been fune.
If he would have got out of his car when asked, he might have been told to get on the ground and cuffed.....then cuffs removed and on his way.
He did everything wrong.
Ive seen many videos of cops pulling over other cops and military.....after a few minutes of talking, everything is cool.
As for the "just driving to a well lighted area" defense......thats for women IMO.

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Given the reaction of these cops, I don't think
the Lt's fear for his life was unreasonable at all.

If this is how cops need to react to feel safe conducting a traffic stop, then fuck it, no more traffic stops. IDGAF if some dude drives around without his plates, but *I* want to go home at night.

Daniel Shaver tried playing the Simon Says game with a cop and look where that got him.

I am on board with training Cops to diffuse a situation rather than escalate. I am also ok with a failure in trying to diffuse the situation leading to escalation. The key is knowing when that time is. These cops were in escalation mode right away. The driver did not help his situation either.

Look at Floyd. He was handcuffed. Let him flop around on the ground, who cares. Situation was diffused. Even if kneeling on him did not kill him, why was it necessary.

Stuckinny said:

Daniel Shaver tried playing the Simon Says game with a cop and look where that got him.

I am on board with training Cops to diffuse a situation rather than escalate. I am also ok with a failure in trying to diffuse the situation leading to escalation. The key is knowing when that time is. These cops were in escalation mode right away. The driver did not help his situation either.

Look at Floyd. He was handcuffed. Let him flop around on the ground, who cares. Situation was diffused. Even if kneeling on him did not kill him, why was it necessary.

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Necessary and use of force are dangerous terms. The standard has always been reasonable and for good reason. If the standard was necessary use of lethal force, it changes things and not for the better. For example if criminal has unloaded firearm and aims it at police or any citizen it would be reasonable to use deadly force to stop the threat. If the standard was necessary, well clearly it wasn’t necessary since it was an unloaded firearm. That legal definition change would result in both police as well as any other citizen going to jail for murder.
That being said the Daniel Shaver case was about the worst I have seen. Law Enforcement at every level needs more training. Instead of being bombarded with countless virtual training on different genders, more force on force training and defense tactics would do more.

spat said:

Given the reaction of these cops, I don't think
the Lt's fear for his life was unreasonable at all.

If this is how cops need to react to feel safe conducting a traffic stop, then fuck it, no more traffic stops. IDGAF if some dude drives around without his plates, but *I* want to go home at night.

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But just think of all the victims there would be if we let cars drive around with no plates.

ICEMAN said:

Necessary and use of force are dangerous terms. The standard has always been reasonable and for good reason. If the standard was necessary use of lethal force, it changes things and not for the better. For example if criminal has unloaded firearm and aims it at police or any citizen it would be reasonable to use deadly force to stop the threat. If the standard was necessary, well clearly it wasn’t necessary since it was an unloaded firearm. That legal definition change would result in both police as well as any other citizen going to jail for murder.
That being said the Daniel Shaver case was about the worst I have seen. Law Enforcement at every level needs more training. Instead of being bombarded with countless virtual training on different genders, more force on force training and defense tactics would do more.

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I am convinced that there is no good standard for use of deadly force.

I am open to suggestions, and "reasonable" might be the best that we can get, but it's still terrible.

I do know that the standard should be the same, no matter who your employer is.

spat said:

Given the reaction of these cops, I don't think
the Lt's fear for his life was unreasonable at all.

If this is how cops need to react to feel safe conducting a traffic stop, then fuck it, no more traffic stops. IDGAF if some dude drives around without his plates, but *I* want to go home at night.

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I agree, no traffic stops.
But thats not the point.
My point here is that for whatever reason he was pulled over, he did everything wrong.
If he would have just did what the horrible cops said, we wouldnt be here talking about this. If he would have just pulled over when they hit their lights, he might have had a "there are some good cops out there" story, but we will never know, because an Army LT acted like a common thug. We have all seen videos of criminals doing this exact same thing and thought, "if he would have just listened"..... George Floyd....or countless other big media stories.
And again....dang I feel like Paul Harrell having to preface everything........I am a huge critic of cops, laws and government all together. But, none of that means shit, right or wrong when the cops are at your door shaking and spitting with fear, you really have no option but to obey.....they will NOT go away. The situation will just escalate....100% of the time. You do have another option which many people use....black, white, male, female, young and old....and that is to pull a gun and fight your way out......hence the reason these cops did a felony stop for a licence plate. And again....I do not and never will agree with how cops behave in many situatuons but again, doesnt matter....the dude was on the side of the road with 2 guns pointed at him and he did everything wrong.
My main gripe here is an Army LT should know that cops have difficult and dangerous jobs and should know how to conduct themselves around authority..... And again, I do not think cops should have as much authority as they do but, doesnt matter when you have 2 guns pointed at you. As an Army officer he should understand how things work in high stress situations and should have used his training to lower the threat level.
Pretty sure he has never seen combat...more of a classroom officer. If he had been in recent combat in the middle east, he would understand how important it is to listen carefully and obey.......again, I do not agtee with cops havong so much authority but alas, they do in our country currently.
Anyone here whos has done any amount of combat in Afghanistan or Iraq will attest that there isnt much more irritating thing than trying to get a supposed friendly to do what you say. It can take 5 minutes to make them pull up their dresses and turn around once....the whole time they are screeching loudly in their language. You would think that even though they dont know our language, they would be able to shut up long enough to follow hand gesture commands....but you would be wrong.
Anyways, anything prior to him having 2 guns pointed at him doesnt matter....including why he was pulled over, men in costumes, authority issues.....none of that matters. To get out alive, follow their directions and figure it out later.

Criticalt said:

I agree, no traffic stops.
But thats not the point.
My point here is that for whatever reason he was pulled over, he did everything wrong.
If he would have just did what the horrible cops said, we wouldnt be here talking about this. If he would have just pulled over when they hit their lights, he might have had a "there are some good cops out there" story, but we will never know, because an Army LT acted like a common thug. We have all seen videos of criminals doing this exact same thing and thought, "if he would have just listened"..... George Floyd....or countless other big media stories.
And again....dang I feel like Paul Harrell having to preface everything........I am a huge critic of cops, laws and government all together. But, none of that means shit, right or wrong when the cops are at your door shaking and spitting with fear, you really have no option but to obey.....they will NOT go away. The situation will just escalate....100% of the time. You do have another option which many people use....black, white, male, female, young and old....and that is to pull a gun and fight your way out......hence the reason these cops did a felony stop for a licence plate. And again....I do not and never will agree with how cops behave in many situatuons but again, doesnt matter....the dude was on the side of the road with 2 guns pointed at him and he did everything wrong.
My main gripe here is an Army LT should know that cops have difficult and dangerous jobs and should know how to conduct themselves around authority..... And again, I do not think cops should have as much authority as they do but, doesnt matter when you have 2 guns pointed at you. As an Army officer he should understand how things work in high stress situations and should have used his training to lower the threat level.
Pretty sure he has never seen combat...more of a classroom officer. If he had been in recent combat in the middle east, he would understand how important it is to listen carefully and obey.......again, I do not agtee with cops havong so much authority but alas, they do in our country currently.
Anyone here whos has done any amount of combat in Afghanistan or Iraq will attest that there isnt much more irritating thing than trying to get a supposed friendly to do what you say. It can take 5 minutes to make them pull up their dresses and turn around once....the whole time they are screeching loudly in their language. You would think that even though they dont know our language, they would be able to shut up long enough to follow hand gesture commands....but you would be wrong.
Anyways, anything prior to him having 2 guns pointed at him doesnt matter....including why he was pulled over, men in costumes, authority issues.....none of that matters. To get out alive, follow their directions and figure it out later.

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I don't think he was acting like a thug at all.

I don't think he was trying to be a smart ass.

I think he was legitimately in fear of his life, and he honestly believed that attempting to unbuckle that seat belt would get him killed.

And given the way these officers were acting, I'm not convinced he was wrong.

I could easily see this story being about a dead Lt and officers on trial for his murder after they shot him for reaching for something, all the while yelling at him to unbuckle the seat belt.

In the end, this went far better for him than it might have, and far worse for those cops. So I don't think it's a very good example of him doing the wrong thing.

He went home to his family that night. The cop doesn't have a job anymore.

Maybe if he'd pulled over immediately things would have been better, but I can't fault him for wanting to wait for a safer spot to stop. He should probably have called 911 and told them what he was doing is all.

Yes, we should all behave properly in a police state, and give your keepers no reason to think about missing their dinner hour.
Robin

spat said:

I am convinced that there is no good standard for use of deadly force.

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Self defense of yourself or others?

holdover said:

Self defense of yourself or others?

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As always, the devil is in the details.

So You dont think self defense is a good standard?

holdover said:

So You dont think self defense is a good standard?

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I don't think it's that easy to legally define.

Do you mean self defense from only actual danger, or perceived danger ?

spat said:

I don't think it's that easy to legally define.

Do you mean self defense from only actual danger, or perceived danger ?

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The standard is necessarily perceived danger. The defendant's actions and thinking are then compared to that of a "reasonable person."

spat said:

I don't think it's that easy to legally define.

Do you mean self defense from only actual danger, or perceived danger ?

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Is there a difference? Someone points an airsoft rifle at you in the dark.

Its easy to define, But It can be difficult to interpret . Travon martin George Zimmerman.

holdover said:

Self defense of yourself or others?

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Rap said:

The standard is necessarily perceived danger. The defendant's actions and thinking are then compared to that of a "reasonable person."

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Actually for law enforcement use of force actions the standard is reasonable officer not reason person. See Graham vs Connor which is the Supreme Court Case that set the standard used today.

The "reasonableness" of a particular use of force must be judged from the perspective of a reasonable officer on the scene, rather than with the 20/20 vision of hindsight."