2nd strike capability

[oc shooter]

looking for members thoughts on 2nd strike capabilty over striker fired auto's. something I've never realy thought about untill talking to my grandson who is on active duty. it seems as though he and other soldiers in his unit like the double action M9 because of the 2nd strike thing they say that military primers are hard and that often they take a 2nd pull to firer they also train with the tap and rack system to chamber another round. I personaly have never had a problem with hard primers and never worried about 2nd strike.

 

[MikeyCNY]

I don't operate, and I barely get to the range enough to call myself a shooter, but personally I don't have a need for it. If the round fails to fire, I want it out of the chamber and a new one inserted. (tap-rack-assess) It happens so rarely in my shooting (I try to use only quality ammo) that I use dummy rounds to simulate failures for training.

After ejecting I'll take a look the 'bad' round, then try shooting it again to make sure the gun isn't having issues.

I guess look at it from a training issue - if the round fails to fire, do you want to have the muscle memory of pulling the trigger a second time, or checking the magazine, racking to load a new round, and re-assessing the target?

 

[dsdmmat]

The second strike importance is a little overstated. Sure it is nice and it is something striker fired guns cannot do but, modern training techniques do not teach second strike as remedial action. The current training model is to tap, rack, and bang. Tap the mag to make sure it is seated, rack the slide to get rid of the dud, and pull the trigger.

I am a "hammer gun" guy and have not transitioned to trusting my life to a striker fired gun. My daughter on the other hand likes striker fired guns. To each their own.

The true benifit to single action/double action guns is the ability to carry them hammer down with the safety off and the option to thumb the hammer back for the first shot to get a lighter trigger pull.

 

[spat]

If I pull the trigger expecting a bang, and get a click, I am not going to waste my time trying a second time with that round. If the problem is anything besides a light primer strike you are just wasting time.

I'm getting that round out and a fresh one in the chamber as fast as possible.

 

[Shoots100]

One of the main reasons I carry a revolver for EDC, is that I don't need to worry about tapping and racking on a dud.
While your trying to do that, Hopefully your not facing an assailant with a revolver !
No matter how fast you think you can do it, a second squeeze of the trigger will always beat you and it's the main reason most militaries and LE are opting for pistols with 2nd strike capability.
That's if you remembered to chamber a round in the first place !

 

[Darth]

I agree that 2nd strike is overrated.

But the P99 has it none the less.

Tap rack and bang is the way to go.

It's good for rimfire 22 though when you are getting dud rounds and don't mind wasting time when plinking.

 

[Different Drummer]

I agree that 2nd strike is overrated.

But the P99 has it none the less.

Tap rack and bang is the way to go.

It's good for rimfire 22 though when you are getting dud rounds and don't mind wasting time when plinking.

Beat me to it on the P99 being striker fired and SS capable, Darth. I wouldn't say lacking SS capability is a deal breaker but have always thought it was nice that my P99 is capable of same.

 

[Truebeliever]

Just had it happen at the range. Light primer strike. And I just pulled the trigger again.

And it’s great for dry fire training. No need to rack the slide again and look for the snap cap later.

 

[MikeyCNY]

And it’s great for dry fire training. No need to rack the slide again and look for the snap cap later.

That's actually a great point!

 

[Marine Cpl]

A second strike is nice at the range. In real life, you want to extract that round even if you have the ability for a second strike. The military doesn't teach second strike. They teach tap, rack, bang.

 

[Phritz]

Tap, rack, bang for me. Not every pistol I own has second strike capability, so I practice the same procedures for all of them.

 

[Marine Cpl]

In real life, you lose about 3 seconds after firing, extracting the round and firing again. Why would anyone want to risk a second go at it with the same round? What if it doesn't fire again? Now 3 seconds turned into 6 seconds. That's a long time when someone is trying to kill you.

 

[freddy]

Some peeps carry matching identical pistols - one on left side, one on right side. Gun won't fire? Shot in dominant arm? Pinned on ground only one hand free? No problem.

 

[Toecutter]

Unless you train alot in a life or death situation if a round fails you will pull that trigger till you break it before tap racking. I train to tap rack but i carry a sa/da .

 

[Shoots100]

In real life, you lose about 3 seconds after firing, extracting the round and firing again. Why would anyone want to risk a second go at it with the same round? What if it doesn't fire again? Now 3 seconds turned into 6 seconds. That's a long time when someone is trying to kill you.

In real life, there's a lot more that can go wrong when trying to tap + rack vs pulling the trigger again, especially when bullets are flying and your trying to find cover at the same time ! Not everyone has a squad to give cover fire while trying to clear a chamber.
I can clear a dud in about 2 seconds, if it's not jammed, if the mags seated all the way, Or ....., but I can pull the trigger again without losing sight of the target in under 1 second. Seconds are an eternity in some cases.
Tap and rack was SOP when the 1911 was the standard sidearm, that ended in the mid 80's with the M9.
Advancements in training should follow the same steps as advancements in the firearm technology being used, yet we are using training methods for a firearm that's been out of service for almost 40 years.
If you carry a striker fired SA for defensive purposes, tap & rack is your only choice.
If you carry a pistol with second strike capability, you have two choices.
One is way quicker than the other and that's why it's a good option to have IMHO.
There's a video in the "firearms in the news" section showing a perp having misfires while shooting at three officers with his Hi point.
He tap & racked ( with an officer on him) two times before they shot him dead. Luckily he missed those officers with the shots fired.
If he had a firearm with second strike capability, the outcome might've been much different.
Just get a revolver, no tap & rack or evidence left behind.

 

[C3D]

Best weapon for second strike capability:

 

[Edwardteach72]

In real life, there's a lot more that can go wrong when trying to tap + rack vs pulling the trigger again, especially when bullets are flying and your trying to find cover at the same time ! Not everyone has a squad to give cover fire while trying to clear a chamber.
I can clear a dud in about 2 seconds, if it's not jammed, if the mags seated all the way, Or ....., but I can pull the trigger again without losing sight of the target in under 1 second. Seconds are an eternity in some cases.
Tap and rack was SOP when the 1911 was the standard sidearm, that ended in the mid 80's with the M9.
Advancements in training should follow the same steps as advancements in the firearm technology being used, yet we are using training methods for a firearm that's been out of service for almost 40 years.
If you carry a striker fired SA for defensive purposes, tap & rack is your only choice.
If you carry a pistol with second strike capability, you have two choices.
One is way quicker than the other and that's why it's a good option to have IMHO.
There's a video in the "firearms in the news" section showing a perp having misfires while shooting at three officers with his Hi point.
He tap & racked ( with an officer on him) two times before they shot him dead. Luckily he missed those officers with the shots fired.
If he had a firearm with second strike capability, the outcome might've been much different.
Just get a revolver, no tap & rack or evidence left behind.

Sorry but nope. Even with 2nd strike military trains tap rack bang.

And shit can you name one instructor who even advocate for 2nd strike over tap rack bang? Has nothing to do with 1911 doctrine vs "new technology" M9

Oh as for your hi point example nope sorry trash example, it' a junk gun that doesn't have a good reputation (actually reputation is worse than the actual gun but that's a different topic)

 

[Marine Cpl]

In real life, there's a lot more that can go wrong when trying to tap + rack vs pulling the trigger again, especially when bullets are flying and your trying to find cover at the same time ! Not everyone has a squad to give cover fire while trying to clear a chamber.
I can clear a dud in about 2 seconds, if it's not jammed, if the mags seated all the way, Or ....., but I can pull the trigger again without losing sight of the target in under 1 second. Seconds are an eternity in some cases.
Tap and rack was SOP when the 1911 was the standard sidearm, that ended in the mid 80's with the M9.
Advancements in training should follow the same steps as advancements in the firearm technology being used, yet we are using training methods for a firearm that's been out of service for almost 40 years.
If you carry a striker fired SA for defensive purposes, tap & rack is your only choice.
If you carry a pistol with second strike capability, you have two choices.
One is way quicker than the other and that's why it's a good option to have IMHO.
There's a video in the "firearms in the news" section showing a perp having misfires while shooting at three officers with his Hi point.
He tap & racked ( with an officer on him) two times before they shot him dead. Luckily he missed those officers with the shots fired.
If he had a firearm with second strike capability, the outcome might've been much different.
Just get a revolver, no tap & rack or evidence left behind.

Tap, rack, bang is still taught to this day in all services. At least it is in the Marines, Navy, and Army of which I have seen with my own eyes until 2011. I'd imagine the Air Force does as well since they go to Army schools like the rest of the services.

 

[Eddie Gunks]

My ammo and gun do not fail to fire. Easy.

If your gun does not fire it is bad ammo or a broken gun. Simple as that.

 

[Acer-m14]

if it goes click .. eject and load and pow ... WTF waste a second or two to test a dud ..

 

[Truebeliever]

Tap, rack, bang is still taught to this day in all services. At least it is in the Marines, Navy, and Army of which I have seen with my own eyes until 2011. I'd imagine the Air Force does as well since they go to Army schools like the rest of the services.

The police used to do “tap, rack, bang”

It’s “tap, rank, READY, bang” now. Lawyers and Community activists got involved.

 

[Edwardteach72]

The police used to do “tap, rack, bang”

It’s “tap, rank, READY, bang” now. Lawyers and Community activists got involved.

What the hell does "ready" change legally?

Ie nope sounds like my buddy has a friend who's uncle is a cop and he said

 

[Shoots100]

if it goes click .. eject and load and pow ... WTF waste a second or two to test a dud ..

Usually if it go's click, your dead, or you have less than one second to pull the trigger again while praying your sphincter is in 100% working order !
Second strike or not, If Your weapon doesn't fire and your taking fire, your first instinct should be to head for cover and pull your backup.
Standing around for three seconds in the middle of a gunfight trying to clear a dud, is a sure way to end up on a slab.

 

[Marine Cpl]

 

[spat]

Usually if it go's click, your dead, or you have less than one second to pull the trigger again while praying your sphincter is in 100% working order !
Second strike or not, If Your weapon doesn't fire and your taking fire, your first instinct should be to head for cover and pull your backup.
Standing around for three seconds in the middle of a gunfight trying to clear a dud at all, is a sure way to end up on a slab.

FIFY

The idea that you are going to stand still while you're doing this is silly. You shouldn't be standing still while you're shooting in the average gunfight. Let alone while clearing a malfunction, with the possible exception of already having excellent cover.

 

[Edwardteach72]

Lot of weird information that people are throwing around that seems to 100% contradict what every single reputable instructor anywhere is saying. Just blows my mind.

Like tap rack bang will get you killed??? What the fuck?
Or (and I'm not against BUGs and yes there are plenty that suggest them) but to say that a BUG will not get you killed but tap rack bang or 2nd strike will is stupid af

 

[Shoots100]

Nothing weird about it.
They teach class with striker pistols, that's what your going to learn from them.
With a striker fired weapon, you have no choice but to clear it after you pull the trigger and if your only going to carry that weapon, you'd better train in that method.
Almost every instructor practices clearing a jam on an open or indoor range, with no one firing back at them, in perfect conditions with hearing protection.
My freaking 10 year old niece can clear a jam in those conditions too.
For shits and giggles, Get some blanks and have a friend fire in your direction while your trying to clear a jam. See how you make out ?
Then, Get some simunitions and have them shoot at you while your doing it.
Try it in a hallway without hearing protection, in low light, weak handed, or with one hand !
With second strike, weak handed, one handed, I can at least pull the trigger a second time and try to live another day.
Totally different scenario than any of the instructors are teaching, but then again, most wouldn't go to a class where your going to die 10 out of 10 times while trying to clear a dud.
That's not good for business and glock wouldn't be happy either.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Nothing weird about it.
They teach class with striker pistols, that's what your going to learn from them.
With a striker fired weapon, you have no choice but to clear it after you pull the trigger and if your only going to carry that weapon, you'd better train in that method.
Almost every instructor practices clearing a jam on an open or indoor range, with no one firing back at them, in perfect conditions with hearing protection.
My freaking 10 year old niece can clear a jam in those conditions too.
For shits and giggles, Get some blanks and have a friend fire in your direction while your trying to clear a jam. See how you make out ?
Then, Get some simunitions and have them shoot at you while your doing it.
Try it in a hallway without hearing protection, in low light, weak handed, or with one hand !
With second strike, weak handed, one handed, I can at least pull the trigger a second time and try to live another day.
Totally different scenario than any of the instructors are teaching, but then again, most wouldn't go to a class where your going to die 10 out of 10 times while trying to clear a dud.
That's not good for business and glock wouldn't be happy either.

It's not just civilian instructors. It's the military and every police force. Absolutely no professional ever does a second strike. No offense but that's for amateurs.

Any time a round doesn't perform as designed, it's no good. When a malfunction happens, it's time for another round. In the heat of the moment, you don't know if it's a light primer strike, a case that didn't eject, or anything else. The procedure to clear all of them is the same. If you don't train like that, you are going to be second striking on a stuck case or a double feed because it's engrained in you to pull the trigger again. That'll get you killed.

Did you even see in the video above that clearing the offending round can be done quickly? It takes almost no time at all. And for the record, the most elite forces in this country's military do tap, rack, bang, with non striker fired weapons.

 

[Justincase]

I think out of habit (or desperation, or lack of training or whatever else) I would just pull the trigger again. If nothing happens the second time, I'm out what, .2 seconds? Immediately after that I could tap, rack, try again if the second strike didn't work. Honestly, of all the times I've pulled the trigger on any gun and had a "dud" or hang fire or whatever, the second strike took care of it a majority of the time. Of course you have to carry a firearm that HAS second strike capability. I don't, so I'd better hope I don't resort to the antiquated instinct to simply pull the trigger again.

 

[Marine Cpl]

In case some found the other tap, rack, bang, video boring or just didn't want to click on it, this one is a lot better.