Shadow2
6.5 Creedmoor
Going to need to see some hard data on this.
Last edited:
Another Sad Example Of Why You Should Carry With A Round Chambered
- Thread starter Dr. Evil
- Start date
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
Hard data on what?
When speed and accuracy count under stress - no matter the discipline or situation - intentionally adding a step which degrades both is clearly a negative. That's all the data I need.
SigSweet
.45 acp
Keep a round in the pipe if you value your life
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
Here is some hard data. It takes 2 hands to make an inoperable firearm operable. You don't always have two hands available.
It takes extra seconds to make an inoperable firearm operable. Add even more or not being able to make it operable at all if you only have one hand available.
There are numerous videos on YouTube where professionals test this Israeli method and come up short based on the scenario they are in.
It takes extra seconds to make an inoperable firearm operable. Add even more or not being able to make it operable at all if you only have one hand available.
There are numerous videos on YouTube where professionals test this Israeli method and come up short based on the scenario they are in.
People learned john waynes technique.. Instead of 6 they put 5 in. 
People learned john waynes technique.. Instead of 6 they put 5 in.
Different concept. Some revolvers have unsafe designs where if the hammer is struck or dropped or whatever, it can come down on a loaded chamber hard enough to cause a discharge.
Besides, sitting on an empty chamber with a revolver still results in bang! when the trigger is pulled. You just have one less.
Shadow2
6.5 Creedmoor
your arguing "speed of a draw" .. not the overal effectiveness of condition 1.
If people are popping themselves in the legs or those around them on a draw then the risk just out weighed all the benefit in a "seconds count situation"
You logic is sound for a fast draw but you don't factor in the number of people sent to the hospital with self inflicted wounds.
Which is a shit tone. Other factor your Ignoring is Murphys Law.
Every person who let a negligent round off didn't think it would ever happen to them, so you can remove the im gods gift to being an "operator" off the table.
The theory is sound but in practical application there is not enough data to support Condition 1 vs 3 in overall effectiveness of the average CCW holder.
If people are popping themselves in the legs or those around them on a draw then the risk just out weighed all the benefit in a "seconds count situation"
You logic is sound for a fast draw but you don't factor in the number of people sent to the hospital with self inflicted wounds.
Which is a shit tone. Other factor your Ignoring is Murphys Law.
Every person who let a negligent round off didn't think it would ever happen to them, so you can remove the im gods gift to being an "operator" off the table.
The theory is sound but in practical application there is not enough data to support Condition 1 vs 3 in overall effectiveness of the average CCW holder.
Last edited:
Dr. Evil
20×102mm Vulcan
Bottom line is this. Do what you feel is right for you. I am far less concerned about a negligent discharge compared to having the advantage of time, albeit a fraction of a second, in the unlikely event I am ever in a life and death situation. YMMV.
Shadow2: Other than anecdotal evidence, do you have data to support your proclamation? I'm sure it is a strong opinion, but I doubt there is adequate data to support it.
spat
.700 Nitro Express
It all comes down to risk factors.
That is largely related to your skill and environment.
An unskilled person in a safe environment would obviously be better served by developing skill, but condition 3 is faster.
Everyone, no matter how skilled, has a chance of making an error that results in an unintentional discharge. That chance is always less on an empty chamber.
Every environment has a chance that you will need to discharge your weapon, and the extra step of chambering your round raises the odds that you will not be able to do so quickly or accurately enough.
You have to compare the odds of the first case with the odds of the second.
In the vast majority of cases you are better off with a loaded chamber, but to say you always are is false. If the environment you are in is safe enough, condition 3 might be better.
That is largely related to your skill and environment.
An unskilled person in a safe environment would obviously be better served by developing skill, but condition 3 is faster.
Everyone, no matter how skilled, has a chance of making an error that results in an unintentional discharge. That chance is always less on an empty chamber.
Every environment has a chance that you will need to discharge your weapon, and the extra step of chambering your round raises the odds that you will not be able to do so quickly or accurately enough.
You have to compare the odds of the first case with the odds of the second.
In the vast majority of cases you are better off with a loaded chamber, but to say you always are is false. If the environment you are in is safe enough, condition 3 might be better.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
In the militaries around the world where a pistol is a secondary rarely used weapon, an empty chamber is usually carried except when danger is eminent. (IE outside the wire or military police on patrol)
In the police departments around the world where a pistol is the primary and danger is eminent at any time an empty chamber is never carried.
Why anyone as a civilian would when professionals never do when danger is eminent is beyond me.
It isn't rocket science. Keep your booger hook of the trigger and reholster with care into a quality holster and you'll never have a negligent discharge. Practice at home.
In the police departments around the world where a pistol is the primary and danger is eminent at any time an empty chamber is never carried.
Why anyone as a civilian would when professionals never do when danger is eminent is beyond me.
It isn't rocket science. Keep your booger hook of the trigger and reholster with care into a quality holster and you'll never have a negligent discharge. Practice at home.
Shadow2
6.5 Creedmoor
It's called CDC report on gun injuries and death, You may not like the data but it doesn't make it any more relevant now does it. I made no proclamation ... somone eslse did that carrying chambered is better, i replied that's not the case there are an equal amount of situations where it wasn't better.
You can try to proove that chambered is better all you like, doesn't make it any more the true the more you say it and nor does it make what i say false.
You can try to proove that chambered is better all you like, doesn't make it any more the true the more you say it and nor does it make what i say false.
Last edited:
I have nothing to prove. You should carry how you feel comfortable. I just think it's stupid and makes your firearm pointless.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
Those are careless people doing careless things. Same things happen when people come home from duck hunting and have negligent discharges cleaning their guns. You'll always find stats on that. I don't know what your point is on these stats. Each and every negligent discharge was from a person who was negligent. There will always be stats on negligent people. Same goes for driving a car. Stats there based on negligence.
The bottom line is with every negligent discharge, it is a careless person not following one of the safety rules. There is no other way for the gun to go off on a modern firearm working as designed unless one pulls the trigger or allows an object to pull the trigger. Period.
To say that it's better to carry unchambered in certain situations is ridiculous. No modern gun is ever designed to be carried that way.
Each and every discharge is due to a trigger pull. I've got nothing to prove and I stand by the fact that it's is stupid to carry unchambered unless you are a negligent person in which case you shouldn't be carrying. When I reach that point when I cannot trust myself that I wont pull the trigger when I didn't mean to, I'll stop carrying.
Every expert that truly is one will say that you are wrong.
Last edited:
Logical fallacy.
"Speed of a draw" is not anywhere near the only condition being considered.
If people are popping themselves in the leg, they have terrible firearms handling skills, EVEN IF they own a gun with a safety. They simply got lucky.
"A shit ton of people" accidentally shoot themselves is wrong, but would require proof on your part, which is of course impossible as it is wrong.
Nothing to do with being an operator. Poor ad-hom fail.
Here is the opposite:
I don't wear my seatbelt in the car.
It will be faster to get out if my car should go in the water without it on.
Doesn't work that way.
Clipazine
.45 acp
Your gun is NOT loaded until you chamber a round. Why carry an unloaded gun?
Here's my take: Firearms are not 100% reliable. Why would you want to add another mechanical step that can go wrong when you need it to work the most? Carrying an unloaded gun if fool-hearty.
On a side note- Every firearm in my house is chambered, including the bed-side 12 gauge, and everything in the safe. The very thought of an unloaded gun is irritating to me.
Here's my take: Firearms are not 100% reliable. Why would you want to add another mechanical step that can go wrong when you need it to work the most? Carrying an unloaded gun if fool-hearty.
On a side note- Every firearm in my house is chambered, including the bed-side 12 gauge, and everything in the safe. The very thought of an unloaded gun is irritating to me.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
It all boils down to not pulling the trigger with your finger or allowing an object like a flimsy holster that bends into the trigger guard area to pull the trigger as you put it in the holster.
Like I said before, if you are afraid that you cannot mind the trigger, you shouldn't be carrying. The trigger should always be minded even when carrying with a safety engaged. Even when unloaded for that matter.
Like I said before, if you are afraid that you cannot mind the trigger, you shouldn't be carrying. The trigger should always be minded even when carrying with a safety engaged. Even when unloaded for that matter.
I can so see this being the setup for the new wave of "smart cars" coming out.
"I prefer cars without autonomous breaking."
"LOL! WITHOUT AUTONOMOUS BREAKING YOU RE 53094875% MORE LIKELY to hit the car in front of you!"
This discussion reminds me of a friend who told me he only carries when he thinks he might need it. I told him that if I thought I would need it, I just wouldn't go there. The point is that you never know when or to what extent you may need a sidearm.
ECU Pirates
.308 Win
Saying a gun without one in the pipe is like a brick is laughable. How many bricks can shoot a bullet in a second or so? There are many instances when one would have time to chamber a round and meet a threat. There are also times when it might not be possible. It's all personal preference. I carry with a round in the pipe but I also carry a da pistol. Some of the new striker fired guns have lighter triggers than I like for carry. Just personal preference. I also like being able to ride the hammer while I holster. I know a guy who carries without on in the pipe. He has a baby that he does not want to be muzzle sweeping. I can't really blame him. I have a little guy also. I don't carry at home anymore because he's constantly running around me. I bought a couple of liberty fingerprint "safes" to keep guns safe around him. I also have the big safe. A round in the pipe is faster and better in most all situations but a loaded mag and an empty chamber is not really unarmed in my opinion. If anyone is worried about ND's maybe try a revolver or a da/sa pistol. It could but your mind at ease and let you start carrying properly.
ECU Pirates
.308 Win
Don't drop that shotgun haha
Clipazine
.45 acp
Ugh. you caught me. It's in cruiser mode. I have cats running around.
Glenn B
.308 Win
After many years as a LE firearms instructor and many more as a shooter, I feel compelled to say that if you carry a modern handgun for self defense and its chamber is empty then you are, in my opinion and with all due respect, an asshole. I can not put in any more of an appropriate term than that.
Someone mentioned such a gun may fall out of the holster while in the crapper but such negligence is easily avoidable by using a holster with a retention method other than mere friction. And yes while I do believe accidents happen that are free of user negligence such would not be the case in that type of situation because it is the carrier's responsibility to assure such does not happen.
Another person said in essence that some who shoots himself in the leg should not carry with one in the chamber but to that I say that such a person needs retraining and should not carry at all until successfully completing it.
None of those types of things, or other similar ludicrous excuses, have anything to do with a good reason not to carry one in the chamber of a modern self defense handgun. There is no such good resson and if you think there is and base it on the type of pistol you carry or your ability to handle it then you made a bad choice of pistol or lack the proper proficiency to carry it. Whenever you take away what little reasonable and legal winning edge you have, you become closer to losing a gun fight. As the title of Bill Jordan's book said it, there is "No Second Place Winner" in a gunfight.
Someone mentioned such a gun may fall out of the holster while in the crapper but such negligence is easily avoidable by using a holster with a retention method other than mere friction. And yes while I do believe accidents happen that are free of user negligence such would not be the case in that type of situation because it is the carrier's responsibility to assure such does not happen.
Another person said in essence that some who shoots himself in the leg should not carry with one in the chamber but to that I say that such a person needs retraining and should not carry at all until successfully completing it.
None of those types of things, or other similar ludicrous excuses, have anything to do with a good reason not to carry one in the chamber of a modern self defense handgun. There is no such good resson and if you think there is and base it on the type of pistol you carry or your ability to handle it then you made a bad choice of pistol or lack the proper proficiency to carry it. Whenever you take away what little reasonable and legal winning edge you have, you become closer to losing a gun fight. As the title of Bill Jordan's book said it, there is "No Second Place Winner" in a gunfight.
Last edited:
ECU Pirates
.308 Win
I will be sure to let my buddy know he's an asshole for not wanting to constantly muzzle sweep his toddler with a round in the chamber. Bill Jordan have many gunfights with his revolvers?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Glenn B
.308 Win
You make sure to tell your friend whatever you want. I stand my opinion and stand by it based upon decades of training and practical experience both of which are ongoing. Maybe you also should have told the guy and his son, who were both killed, how smart that dad was for carrying a defensive weapon with an unloaded chamber.
As for your reference to Bill Jordan, apparently the point went over your head as what I was expressing had nothing to do with what type of gun he carried in his LE career or his time with the USMC but merely that you need to be the winner and you need every edge you can get to do so such as one in the chamber of a defensive handgun. You seemingly somehow missed what should have been the obvious.
Last edited:
Glenn B
.308 Win
By the way are you and or your buddy actually of the belief that your friend muzzling his toddler is okay if there sulposedly is not a round chambered!!! That is what is implied in what you wrote. If that is the case then maybe you need to be retrained as to firearms safety. Why on earth is he constantly muzzling his child with a firearm in the first place, one in the chamber or not.
ECU Pirates
.308 Win
If you read what I posted earlier you would have your answer. I can only speak for myself. Do you carry in a Jordan holster? It gives a speed advantage.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk