At What Point is an 80% a Firearm?

[Marine Cpl]

Say you buy a an 80% pistol frame. It isn’t a firearm yet. That we can agree upon. Now say you finish it minus one hole you have to drill to accommodate a trigger. Everything is installed and finished minus that one hole that’ll secure the trigger with a pin.

Is it still just a piece of plastic that can be legally kept?

 

[BDinPutnam]

According to New York state or according to the BATFE?

 

[kev74]

Once it's 81%, its a firearm. So put it on your permit before you fire up the Dremel!

 

[Marine Cpl]

According to New York state or according to the BATFE?

Anyone. I can’t find any laws on it.

 

[togmaster]

Once it's 81%, its a firearm. So put it on your permit before you fire up the Dremel!

This. That's why they sell them 80%

 

[GOYABEAN]

law's don't matter in land because they seem to change as often as the weather

 

[kev74]

Are “80%” or “unfinished” receivers illegal? | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives

https://www.ammoland.com/2014/11/atf-answers-questions-on-80-receiver-blanks/#axzz5qsEnqSmG

Looks like the 80% nonsense is a regulation, not codified in law.

 

[Saltwater60]

If you going to finish it the gun would need to be placed on your permit anyway so why not do it before you touch it.

 

[BDinPutnam]

Are “80%” or “unfinished” receivers illegal? | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives

https://www.ammoland.com/2014/11/atf-answers-questions-on-80-receiver-blanks/#axzz5qsEnqSmG

Looks like the 80% nonsense is a regulation, not codified in law.

And bumpstocks are machine guns now.

That first link gives me pause, generally not least because it is from ATF and it is pretty freaking obvious that the receiver in the relevant picture cannot, in fact, accept a fire control group yet ATF is telling you it is a firearm.

 

[Marine Cpl]

If you going to finish it the gun would need to be placed on your permit anyway so why not do it before you touch it.

Because I wouldn’t want it on my license. I would want it to be one drilled hole from completion. Handguns on a license are subject to confiscation.

 

[BDinPutnam]

Because I wouldn’t want it on my license. I would want it to be one drilled hole from completion. Handguns on a license are subject to confiscation.

I dont know how long it takes to make an 80% pistol a pistol (from 80%). How quickly would you need "not a gun" to become "yeah that's a gun"?

Bear in mind NY has no constructive intent law so you would presumably have all the other parts on hand.

Based on that ATF link from @kev74 above I would just keep it as is and finish it out as needed if we're talking SHTF type stuff but again I dont know how long it takes to go from 80% to what you're talking about.

 

[Marine Cpl]

So from what I can tell, there is no actual federal law on this. Just a determination with no specific formula. Even if the feds considered it a firearm, no federal laws would be broken just to possess at home.

Now NY also has no laws or definitions on how complete it has to be to be a pistol. They do have case law however saying that in order to get convicted of Criminal Possession of a Weapon or Firearm, the firearm must be operable.

So it looks good to go to use as a display piece or paperweight unless I’m missing something.

 

[BDinPutnam]

In New York law, sure.

See the last picture in Kev's first link for what the feds think.

 

[Marine Cpl]

In New York law, sure.

See the last picture in Kev's first link for what the feds think.

Right but what federal law would I be breaking? I’m allowed to have a pistol federally.

 

[GOYABEAN]

So from what I can tell, there is no actual federal law on this. Just a determination with no specific formula. Even if the feds considered it a firearm, no federal laws would be broken just to possess at home.

Now NY also has no laws or definitions on how complete it has to be to be a pistol. They do have case law however saying that in order to get convicted of Criminal Possession of a Weapon or Firearm, the firearm must be operable.

So it looks good to go to use as a display piece or paperweight unless I’m missing something.

Don't put to much faith in what land considers definition

 

[kev74]

If you wanted to maybe put a toe over the line... you could complete the lower in the dark of night with nobody watching, then fill the recesses with a soft/weak epoxy, castable acrylic, etc. It wouldn't be a firearm (except for the brief period after completion), and would be a short ride through the toaster oven away from being usable.

The biggest issue with leaving the lower incomplete is that you can't test it before you need it. I don't think that pistol would be my tool of choice to defend my self and family if I didn't have a chance to run a few rounds through it.

Another thought... Who's to say if its a rifle, pistol or other if it doesn't have a barrel or stock on it? You're allowed still to build a rifle. If you alter it during SHTF - who cares? And if the boys in blue storm your house looking for guns, they're taking your 80% paperweight, regardless of its level of completion.

 

[spat]

Once it's 81%, its a firearm. So put it on your permit before you fire up the Dremel!

Because I wouldn’t want it on my license. I would want it to be one drilled hole from completion. Handguns on a license are subject to confiscation.

The ATF considers it a firearm as soon as you drill the first hole.

There really is no way to measure 80% completion, it's a term used in the industry to mean "as finished as possible before it is a firearm". Reputable merchants selling 80% receivers have rulings from the ATF on their product saying as much. Each product needs a separate ruling.

In this case with the ATF it is literally "we can't define it, but we know it when we see it"

You don't have to tell the ATF about it ever, unless you are making an NFA item.

Now, as for NY You can finish machining the receiver 100% and still be legal, you just can't assemble the handgun. If you are going to have all the parts in your possession, I recommend you also have a combination of parts to build that receiver into a rifle as well, just in case.

Think of it this way:

You can make a compliant AR rifle from an 80% blank legally without telling anyone, state or fed.

You can make an AR pistol legally from an 80%, but you're going to need to put a serial # on it, and depending on what county you're in, getting it on your permit could be a challenge.

Whether what you are building is a pistol or a rifle (or an SBR) isn't determined until you attach the upper to the lower.

If the collection of parts that you have can only be assembled into a pistol I could see some overzealous prosecutor going after you for it, but a good lawyer (and enough cash) should be able to get you off on that. I'd still recommend having a rifle upper around as insurance.

Now those arguments are based on the AR platform, but they apply just as well for "pistol based" 80%s.

Want your undocumented glock on standby ? Just have enough parts to make it a carbine as well as a pistol, and don't get caught with it assembled as a pistol.

 

[Acer-m14]

when when when does it become a gun.. ATF have a Ruling on black pipe too ..

BLN100-3000 - Bluefin BLN100-3000 - 1" x 30" Black Nipple

 

[dsdmmat]

I dont know how long it takes to make an 80% pistol a pistol (from 80%). How quickly would you need "not a gun" to become "yeah that's a gun"?

Bear in mind NY has no constructive intent law so you would presumably have all the other parts on hand.

Based on that ATF link from @kev74 above I would just keep it as is and finish it out as needed if we're talking SHTF type stuff but again I dont know how long it takes to go from 80% to what you're talking about.

In Jefferson county they want to see the receiver when you go to put it on your license. I don't put a serial number on it until it is finished. Then I take the receiver down and put it on my license. No sense in serializing a chunk of metal only to mess it up and go through the nut roll of taking it off your license.

 

[Hector Heco]

In Jefferson county they want to see the receiver when you go to put it on your license. I don't put a serial number on it until it is finished. Then I take the receiver down and put it on my license. No sense in serializing a chunk of metal only to mess it up and go through the nut roll of taking it off your license.

How did you get the serial on to the frame.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

 

[dsdmmat]

How did you get the serial on to the frame.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

Either engrave it or stamp it.

 

[Calculon]

Great thread.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Ok. Next question.

Is a stripped frame that’s finished but never assembled into a pistol with a slide considered a pistol by NY? Let’s say I finish the frame but never install a slide on it. Kind of like a stripped lower. I get a stripped lower but never build it into anything.

Why would this 80 percent frame that’s finished be any different?