ATF Definitions - AR-15 lower is NOT a gun

[1075tech]

Design of AR-15 could derail charges tied to popular rifle

I'm not sure if this hasn't been talked about here before. I'm not going to search ATF policy and definitions, but how do they define how a handgun is a gun? Almost every semi-auto pistol is comprised of an upper and lower receiver.

 

[dsdmmat]

Yeah the ATF dropped charges in a court case because they would have lost and it would have changed the way AR receivers are classified. Huge mess.

 

[spat]

Design of AR-15 could derail charges tied to popular rifle

I'm not sure if this hasn't been talked about here before. I'm not going to search ATF policy and definitions, but how do they define how a handgun is a gun? Almost every semi-auto pistol is comprised of an upper and lower receiver.

I hadn't thought about that, but yea, most handguns don't have a barrel that threads into a receiver either.

 

[Bananabandit]

Im going to write my Congressman a strongly worded letter to ensure lower receivers get classified as a gun. We have to stop the babykillers!

 

[Cavalry]

Design of AR-15 could derail charges tied to popular rifle

I'm not sure if this hasn't been talked about here before. I'm not going to search ATF policy and definitions, but how do they define how a handgun is a gun? Almost every semi-auto pistol is comprised of an upper and lower receiver.

"Firearm frame or receiver. That part of a firearm which provides housing for the hammer, bolt or breechblock, and firing mechanism, and which is usually threaded at its forward portion to re-ceive the barrel. "


The whole stink was a (AR) lower by itself is not a firearm as its missing components by definition. I would think that if someone had a pistol frame with no slide they could equally use this defense. Better question is what about a striker fired pistol? It only houses part of the firing mechanism and no other parts by definition.

 

[Phauxtoe]

toss this into the mix...
A black powder pistol is fine to have without a Permit, unless you have powder and shot for said gun!

 

[gun_slinger_boy]

If this gets enough traction I'm just wondering what kind of cockamamy definition the ATF is going to come up with.

 

[John Stark]

As written under the US Code of Federal Regulations, an AR lower is not a firearm, and neither is the upper.

Mate them together and maybe ATF has a case; however, the issue at that point would boil down to whether two separate parts that make up a "firearm" once they're joined together but lack a serial number on each part, especially a serial number that matches, means anything.

This is where everything in a court of law could hinge upon the letter "a" and whether a noun is defined as singular or plural.

"A" receiver is "That *part* of a firearm which provides housing for the hammer, bolt or breechblock, and firing mechanism, and which is usually threaded at its forward portion to receive the barrel." That's three parts that must be "housed" by the "receiver" for it to be considered a "firearm."

The ATF definition clearly calls "a" receiver "that part," but with an upper and lower on AR pattern weapons and even handguns, where we're talking about two different parts, we don't have "a" receiver, we have two receivers. We don't have that "that part" that "provides the housing for [these various components], we have different part*s* that do neither. Putting those parts together does not make "a" part, it makes "two parts pinned/joined /bolted together." Their definition does not say a receiver is "those parts" that make up "the housing" for these other parts. It doesn't say that a receiver is "this part and that part, when mated together" then become "the housing" for these other parts.

For a fascist alphabet soup agency that has really done nothing more than willingly Infringe upon the Rights of American citizens since its inception, a rogue agency that lives and breathes by their technical definitions and has taken great pride in imprisoning their fellow citizens, shooting them, burning them alive in their compound, and otherwise ruining people financially and by reputation (especially gun stores), it sure ought to add a gigantic question mark as to why they've been using a flawed technical decision for literally decades and decades to do so.

Of course, we all know the answer to that question.

Technical definitions of the law and regulations bring ruin or great prize money to regular citizens, corporations, government law suits, and so on every day in America, but as we know, JustUs is for the government elite, not the peons.

The ATF should be immediately disbanded over this, and every agent or prosecutor that has prosecuted American citizens ought themselves to be sitting in the dock facing prison upon conviction for knowingly and criminally conspiring to falsely arrest, charge, and convict people who did nothing wrong according to the very technical definitions they used against their fellow Americans.

These are the freaking "experts" that rule over us.

 

[Tisto]

If this gets enough traction I'm just wondering what kind of cockamamy definition the ATF is going to come up with.

They are a bureau of the US GOVERNMENT. THEY WILL TWIST WORDS AND STRETCH DEFINITIONS AS FAR AS THEY DEEM NECESSARY TO ACHEIVE THEIR DESIRED OUTCOME.

 

[That_FNG]

People need to leave this shit alone. Next the atf will deem both an upper and a lower firearms, and then no more ordering uppers through the mail

 

[spat]

If this gets enough traction I'm just wondering what kind of cockamamy definition the ATF is going to come up with.

The whole point of this is that the ATF doesn't get to come up with the definitions.

They have to just enforce what the legislature comes up with.

It's a separation of powers thing.

It could end up changing a lot of regulations if it is followed through on.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Definitions have never stopped the ATF before.

 

[Acer-m14]

Definitions have never stopped the ATF before.

yep .. them bump stocks are full auto plastic guns with no upper or lower and with no metal parts ..

Bump Stocks | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives

On June 14, 2024, the United States Supreme Court in Cargill v. United States, 144 S.Ct. 222 (2024) held that a semiautomatic rifle equipped with a bump stock does not meet the definition of a “machinegun” as defined under 26 U.S.C. § 5845(b) of the National Firearms Act because the Court...

www.atf.gov

so what if i have a bump stock and do not have a AR .. what happens ?? LOL

 

[gun_slinger_boy]

yep .. them bump stocks are full auto plastic guns with no upper or lower and with no metal parts ..

Bump Stocks | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives

On June 14, 2024, the United States Supreme Court in Cargill v. United States, 144 S.Ct. 222 (2024) held that a semiautomatic rifle equipped with a bump stock does not meet the definition of a “machinegun” as defined under 26 U.S.C. § 5845(b) of the National Firearms Act because the Court...

www.atf.gov

so what if i have a bump stock and do not have a AR .. what happens ?? LOL

Yes. And don't forget the back and forth with the pistol braces. This is what I was getting at in the thread about the franklin armory providence firing from an open bolt.

 

[1075tech]

So, if I had any, I could keep uppers and lowers separate. Neither by itself is a gun.

But then there is the theory of constructive intent.

 

[Acer-m14]

But then there is the theory of constructive intent.

i think there are some issues on using that, if its even on the books still ... on the lines of omg you have a pressure cooker in your kitchen it could be use as a ... and in your garage a gas can and on the shelf a box of road flares ..

 

[John Stark]

Same questions being asked here:

If an AR-15 Lower Isn't a Firearm Under the Law, Why is a Semi-Auto Pistol Frame a Gun? - The Truth About Guns

There has been much notice taken lately that judges are having a bit of trouble with the ATF’s interpretation of the law by which AR lower receivers are firearms in and of themselves. By itself, without an upper, the lower can’t discharge a round. You can insert a loaded magazine and pull the...

www.thetruthaboutguns.com

Interesting comments, and the pictures with an AR lower with the buffer tube and stock attached compared to a pistol frame are worth a thousand words.

 

[Acer-m14]

and my muskets and "BP pistols" ( you know ) aren't firearms .. there out dated and wont kill a rat .. LOL ..