From the experts.
And a good explanation on why all handgun calibers is pretty much the same
And a good explanation on why all handgun calibers is pretty much the same
Awesome video on ammo, and gel test
- Thread starter Edwardteach72
- Start date
Acer-m14
20×102mm Vulcan
nice .. but where is the gel for a 98lb soaking wet lady with 2 rolls quarters in her hands .. and a 500lb fat man ??
or the gel block high on PCP or some other new drug ??
did we stop the donating our dead bodies for science ??
or the gel block high on PCP or some other new drug ??
did we stop the donating our dead bodies for science ??
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
Just watched the whole video. I was ready to tear it apart but man, everything they said is correct. Your body will never know what handgun caliber it was hit with.
I still do think that 12 to 18 inches of penetration isn't enough in all cases to reach vitals with a hollow point that penetrates less than half of what a FMJ would. For example, a hollow point has to penetrate through a car door with the bullet slowing down, perhaps through an arm and into the chest of a muscular or fat man wearing heavy clothing. Each barrier it encounter slows down the bullet.
That bullet has to go through metal, clothing at the arm, meat and arm bone while expanding, clothing again on the backside of the arm, clothing once more at the chest and finally enter the chest while expanded.
I'll stick with proven FMJ's that pierce through all that without issue.
What's funny is that these guys basically said that hollow points are not necessary without really realizing it by explaining what pistol bullets actually do. They said that with handguns, a hit to a vital is all that matters and it doesn't matter what the size of the projectile is. It either hits vitals or it doesn't and energy doesn't do squat unless it's over 2,000 feet per second unlike rifles which actually do damage to tissue and organs far away from the actual piercing.
I still do think that 12 to 18 inches of penetration isn't enough in all cases to reach vitals with a hollow point that penetrates less than half of what a FMJ would. For example, a hollow point has to penetrate through a car door with the bullet slowing down, perhaps through an arm and into the chest of a muscular or fat man wearing heavy clothing. Each barrier it encounter slows down the bullet.
That bullet has to go through metal, clothing at the arm, meat and arm bone while expanding, clothing again on the backside of the arm, clothing once more at the chest and finally enter the chest while expanded.
I'll stick with proven FMJ's that pierce through all that without issue.
What's funny is that these guys basically said that hollow points are not necessary without really realizing it by explaining what pistol bullets actually do. They said that with handguns, a hit to a vital is all that matters and it doesn't matter what the size of the projectile is. It either hits vitals or it doesn't and energy doesn't do squat unless it's over 2,000 feet per second unlike rifles which actually do damage to tissue and organs far away from the actual piercing.
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Acer-m14
20×102mm Vulcan
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
Yep. Edited.did u leave a not out of that
camper4lyfe
.308 Win
You could always load mags with both. You would either alternate HPs with FMJs or do the first half HP and last half FMJ. Then you have all the bases covered.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
I don't feel like hollow points give you any benefit at all other than reduce overpenetration for me to ever buy them again for pistols. Expansion doesn't kill. It just makes the bullet parachute to a stop.
I'll take the Hollow point.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
If the human body were the same consistency of a cantaloupe, I would agree with you. Unfortunately, it stretches and recovers from the temporary stretch cavity unlike a cantaloupe or ballistics gel. In those mediums, handgun bullets act like rifle bullets in the human body.
I agree to a point...
I am curious Will, have you ever been privy to bodies that have been shot up? I have seen bodies both shot with hollow point as well as FMJ. There are huge differences to the bodies.
I am not anti FMJ, just pro HP.
Ballistic gel shows some really good information, but looking at the dead is even a better test.
About a year ago, I was out at the hospital with a crim when another guy was rushed into the emergency room. He had been shot in the leg with a .357 HP, his leg was nearly blown away. Hanging by threads, sinew and a bit of muscle. Bone was destroyed. I really wish I would have took a picture.
I am not smart enough to say one way or another which is better. I go by what I have gone through and what I have seen.
This videos are a great tool, any knowledge is good.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
No. I haven't dissected them if that's what you mean to determine what the bullet actually did inside the body but what you are saying goes against what every trauma surgeon and medical examiner says. There is a medical examiner on the m4carbine forum that mirrors what these guys in the video say and what I've been saving for years now. He even PM'd me to tell me that most people just don't want to believe that what they are told is false and that's why they take it personal. His carry..... 9mm NATO. I dropped the HST's after that.
A handgun bullet only makes a wound the size of the bullet itself. That's fact. And the size of the wound isn't what stops you. Strikes to vitals do. Birdshot wounds are much more gruesome than buckshot wounds. Yet you'll likely survive a bird shot wound that doesn't reach vitals and you get medical attention and not a buckshot wound that reaches vitals.
Damage to non-vital tissue isn't life-threatening assuming the bleeding gets under control.
I'll check out that forum and see if I can find some of his postings.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
Univibe is his name.
oc shooter
.223 Rem
me I'm passing on being shot with either 1 if it's a good hit I don't think what kind of bullet it is really matters
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
I will give hollow points this. They get bigger. So a full metal jacket bullet that just grazed a vital will be a hit on the side of the vital with a hollow point assuming the hollow point reached the vital as the full metal jacket did when it grazed it.
@thewheels
.308 Win
Do you know if he survived?
Blowing up the femoral artery would cause quick and massive blood loss.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
Just talking about the situation. Not arguing or trying to put you on the spot or anything.
A 357 Magnum hollow point will expand to about double in size. Would a FMJ shatter the bone if hit in the same place? I don't know. It might or might not. I'm guessing that it would or at the very least partially shatter it. But what it won't do is kill the person immediately or knocked him out cold and stop them. Neither bullet would have done that. So if you happened to hit someone with a gun that's trying to do you harm in that same exact place, you'd have to fire again until you hit him in a vital or you incapacitated him with pain and blood loss from more shots that missed vitals where he just gives up, calls it a day, and dies on the way to the hospital.
ECU Pirates
.308 Win
Fmj is a lousy choice. If you want to carry a solid why not something flat point? Get with the program Will....
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
I used to. But based on shit I've read, they only marginally behave better by crushing instead of pushing aside tissue. If damaged tissue was a stopper, then I would. They also stay in a straighter path. I give them that.
But I got tired of paying for expensive flat points when full metal jackets would perform about the same.
Dollar for dollar, they don't make much of a difference on thin humans. For hunting or animal protection, I would most certainly carry a flat point from Buffalo bore or Underwood.
@thewheels
.308 Win
Not to derail the thread but he makes an interesting statement at about the 5:55 mark in the video in regards to velocity.
He mentions 2200 fps or so being the limit for the stretching capacity of the body in regards to the temporary wound cavity.
I've been reading and researching like crazy for the last week or so on the best factory SD/HD ammo for a PCC and a critical factor I'm finding is that the longer tube of the PCC can cause the bullet to fly too fast to function properly with some ammo types and it's the lighter bullets that tend to pick up more velocity in a PCC.
With certain bullet constructions, the bullets end up mushrooming more (due to the extra velocity) and not penetrating as deeply as they would had they been fired from a handgun.
The 2200fps comment caught my attention because there's very few (maybe none) factory pistol rounds that will come close to hitting that velocity out of a PCC and even if they do, are they designed with that kind of velocity in mind and do they function reliably enough to be used for SD/HD in a PCC?
Sorry for the bit of OT stuff and to those that had already sorted this out but it's something that's been rattling around in my head and the video only helped think it through further.
He mentions 2200 fps or so being the limit for the stretching capacity of the body in regards to the temporary wound cavity.
I've been reading and researching like crazy for the last week or so on the best factory SD/HD ammo for a PCC and a critical factor I'm finding is that the longer tube of the PCC can cause the bullet to fly too fast to function properly with some ammo types and it's the lighter bullets that tend to pick up more velocity in a PCC.
With certain bullet constructions, the bullets end up mushrooming more (due to the extra velocity) and not penetrating as deeply as they would had they been fired from a handgun.
The 2200fps comment caught my attention because there's very few (maybe none) factory pistol rounds that will come close to hitting that velocity out of a PCC and even if they do, are they designed with that kind of velocity in mind and do they function reliably enough to be used for SD/HD in a PCC?
Sorry for the bit of OT stuff and to those that had already sorted this out but it's something that's been rattling around in my head and the video only helped think it through further.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
That's true. AR15.com I think it's called The chopping block channel tested a 9mm Federal 124 grain HST plus p out of a 16 inch barrel and it expanded so violently that it only penetrated about 10 inches and broke apart which that normally never happens to a pistol barrel.
AP2020 Outdoors tested an Underwood 65 grain plus p out of a 16 inch barrel and that got 2100 feet per second.
You can go the Underwood route and maybe at close-range it'll behave like a rifle bullet or you can just go FMJ to ensure penetration.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
For anyone interested.
65 gr +P out of 16 inch barrel
Federal HST 124 gr +P out of 16 inch barrel
65 gr +P out of 16 inch barrel
Federal HST 124 gr +P out of 16 inch barrel
GoodGuywitha9mm
.45 acp
All very interesting but I'll stick with HP, and practice so I do not miss! PS - The femoral artery IS a good target!
ECU Pirates
.308 Win
No it’s not.
GoodGuywitha9mm
.45 acp
Interesting? or the femoral artery...
ECU Pirates
.308 Win
Aiming at a leg. What would you do that? Sure it can kill but it gives more time for lead to comeback.