Building a 308 AR for hunting

[Wicat3]

Hey everyone. I am looking to build a hunting rifle off the AR 308 platform. I don't have a bunch of experience with ARs but I have enough to be competent enough to build a decent hunting rifle. With that said the info that I have to start with is that there are 2 platforms the armor lite or DPMS. DPMS appears to be very popular and easier to work with due to its popularity. I know for the range I am looking at a 16" barrel will work the best and keep the gun light. The few issues i'm trying to iron out are these:

1.I'm going fixed mag, I was told the only fixed mag kit that is approved would be the mean arms. Are there any other kits or better ways to go other than mean arms? Also what would be a good 5 round mag to use that I can take down if I needed too.

2.Barrels. I have found conflicting information about the laws with this. I have read that with the fixed magazine I can have any features I want. I have also read that with a fixed magazine I can have any features I want but the flash hider has to be pined and welded as this was a law before the safe act came into play?

 

[dsdmmat]

Mean arms makes a good fixed mag kit but, nothing is “approved” in the PRNY.

Armalite and DPMS gen1 and gen2 are the 3 competing patterns out there, pick one and stick with it.

Fixed mag means not an AW so you can have all the evil features you want.

I prersonally would go 18 inches or longer for a 308.

 

[Calculon]

These discussions come up pretty frequently on this forum. Be sure to read the law yourself and make decisions based on your understanding and comfort level.

NY UNSAFE defines an assault weapon as a semiautomatic rifle with the ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least one other banned feature (eg muzzle break, collapsible stock, pistol grip, etc). Go featureless and you don’t have to fix the mag.

If you want to have any banned features then a fixed magazine is the way to go. You can have every feature under the sun provided you have a fixed magazine. You do not need to pin the muzzle device on a fixed mag build as the law does not address it.

Edit - like @dsdmmat said no fixed mag options have been approved by NY and probably never will. You need to be comfortable understanding the law as written.

 

[meketrefe]

DPMS pattern is pretty much the standard but in order to get a better gun avoid actual DPMS parts other than
their 2 stage trigger. One can get better value and a lighter platform.
There is no need for the most expensive and less popular gen2 when you have gen1 parts that are as light
as the gen2.
Why would you want to fix a magazine to a perfectly good auto-loader? IMO this destroys the whole purpose
and functionality of an auto-loader like an AR.
In that case I would consider a 308w top loading garand type. It is a lot faster for anything. Even a SKS
that you can have re-chambered for a nr. of calibers like a 6.5 Grendel.
There are stocks and barrels that are compliant with BS safe act if this law applies to you.
Anything less than 18" in 308 makes little sense as the cartridge is optimized for 21-22".
With 16" or shorter, a lot of powder is not burned and you might as well consider a cartridge that is
more efficient for those kind of lengths like the 6.8 spc.
I am assuming you want to use it and not for show and tell or wall hanger and that is why I suggested
to stay away from fixed mags. otherwise never mind.

 

[Wicat3]

Mean arms makes a good fixed mag kit but, nothing is “approved” in the PRNY.

Armalite and DPMS gen1 and gen2 are the 3 competing patterns out there, pick one and stick with it.

Fixed mag means not an AW so you can have all the evil features you want.

I prersonally would go 18 inches or longer for a 308.

I know nothing is "approved" but from what I was told the NYSP in my area have told the gun shop they would consider this a fixed magazine option compared to some of the other ones they have been brought to in the past.

These discussions come up pretty frequently on this forum. Be sure to read the law yourself and make decisions based on your understanding and comfort level.

NY UNSAFE defines an assault weapon as a semiautomatic rifle with the ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least one other banned feature (eg muzzle break, collapsible stock, pistol grip, etc). Go featureless and you don’t have to fix the mag.

If you want to have any banned features then a fixed magazine is the way to go. You can have every feature under the sun provided you have a fixed magazine. You do not need to pin the muzzle device on a fixed mag build as the law does not address it.

Edit - like @dsdmmat said no fixed mag options have been approved by NY and probably never will. You need to be comfortable understanding the law as written.

I have read through the laws a few times but than when reading some of the forums you have people talking about you can have a muzzle device but it has to be pinned and welded and than others will say no the law is void because the safe act is the newest and fixed magazine is the way to go.

DPMS pattern is pretty much the standard but in order to get a better gun avoid actual DPMS parts other than
their 2 stage trigger. One can get better value and a lighter platform.
There is no need for the most expensive and less popular gen2 when you have gen1 parts that are as light
as the gen2.
Why would you want to fix a magazine to a perfectly good auto-loader? IMO this destroys the whole purpose
and functionality of an auto-loader like an AR.
In that case I would consider a 308w top loading garand type. It is a lot faster for anything. Even a SKS
that you can have re-chambered for a nr. of calibers like a 6.5 Grendel.
There are stocks and barrels that are compliant with BS safe act if this law applies to you.
Anything less than 18" in 308 makes little sense as the cartridge is optimized for 21-22".
With 16" or shorter, a lot of powder is not burned and you might as well consider a cartridge that is
more efficient for those kind of lengths like the 6.8 spc.
I am assuming you want to use it and not for show and tell or wall hanger and that is why I suggested
to stay away from fixed mags. otherwise never mind.

I already have the Gen 2 PA10 lower so that's what I plan to build. I want a hunting rifle so the fixed magazine isn't an issue in my eyes. It would be like a bench gun no need to have the magazine removed unless I have a failure. The reason I planed to go with the 16" barrel was I don't plan to go out more than 500 yards. I also read the 16" would keep the rifle lighter. I originally was going to go with an 18" barrel.

 

[meketrefe]

I know nothing is "approved" but from what I was told the NYSP in my area have told the gun shop they would consider this a fixed magazine option compared to some of the other ones they have been brought to in the past.



I have read through the laws a few times but than when reading some of the forums you have people talking about you can have a muzzle device but it has to be pinned and welded and than others will say no the law is void because the safe act is the newest and fixed magazine is the way to go.



I already have the Gen 2 PA10 lower so that's what I plan to build. I want a hunting rifle so the fixed magazine isn't an issue in my eyes. It would be like a bench gun no need to have the magazine removed unless I have a failure. The reason I planed to go with the 16" barrel was I don't plan to go out more than 500 yards. I also read the 16" would keep the rifle lighter. I originally was going to go with an 18" barrel.

The weight of the barrel has more to do with the profile than the length. A 18" barrel without a brake or a short brake is as long as
a 16" barrel with a longer brake. So it is still considered a carbine and it is more physiological than actually making any practical difference
other than the added performance in internal ballistics. 18" is about the minimum one should have for a 308 to get some decent performance
with a wide range of loads.

As far as compliance, once something has been sold massively (including new compliant guns) and on top we had official responses from NYSP like in the case of the FRS15 or equivalent gripless stocks then it doesn't matter what anyone says. I guess anyone can take your gun for any reason these days if they want to but between that and being able to charge you after you follow their written ok. Then they are facing an uphill situation so no sane DA
will present any charges. Just think about it, those guns have been and are being sold by the thousands, not just the parts.
So they do not want this SAFE to be challenged that way so they can keep scoring SAFE arrest with law violations
that would have been violations under the previous law anyway. It is all about saving face, nothing else.

 

[STS556]

My brother in law hunts with a DPMS AR10 fixed mag he bought a few years ago from Bullet Guy who is Eddie Gunks now. He never had any problems with the law but the DEC officers are far and few in between in the Catskills where we hunt so we never ran into one yet nor have I ever ran into one in my 25 years of hunting.

Do what I do and carry a smaller printed laminated copy of the actual safe act law as it appears on NY's official website that pertains to the so called "assault weapons" section. In the event you do get stopped by any law enforcement, you have the actual law with you so there should be no need for interpretation. If you have a fixed mag as described in the law, you do not have an assault weapon. If you have featureless with a detachable mag, like I have, just go down the check list of what NY considers an assault weapon and you can answer no to all the features. No assault weapon there either.

 

[Wicat3]

The weight of the barrel has more to do with the profile than the length. A 18" barrel without a brake or a short brake is as long as
a 16" barrel with a longer brake. So it is still considered a carbine and it is more physiological than actually making any practical difference
other than the added performance in internal ballistics. 18" is about the minimum one should have for a 308 to get some decent performance
with a wide range of loads.

As far as compliance, once something has been sold massively (including new compliant guns) and on top we had official responses from NYSP like in the case of the FRS15 or equivalent gripless stocks then it doesn't matter what anyone says. I guess anyone can take your gun for any reason these days if they want to but between that and being able to charge you after you follow their written ok. Then they are facing an uphill situation so no sane DA
will present any charges. Just think about it, those guns have been and are being sold by the thousands, not just the parts.
So they do not want this SAFE to be challenged that way so they can keep scoring SAFE arrest with law violations
that would have been violations under the previous law anyway. It is all about saving face, nothing else.

So I will move up to an 18" barrel like I had planed in the beginning. I understand the mass production\sales with the compliant parts. I have not really seen how people are permanently fixing magazines only the FRS15 stocks and things like that. I want to make the gun as compliant as I can to eliminate the hassle I could face. I plan on using this rifle to hunt with and I don't want to take a chance to have someone hassle me. I don't mind featureless I just find it hard to find parts like a decent barrel that isn't either really cheap or so expensive it makes no sense. As I said its a hunting rifle so a fixed 5 round magazine isn't an issue for me. The issue is finding the best kit to do so. Something permanent but also something that if I moved or the law gets changed I could have the device removed without damage to the lower.

 

[Eddie Gunks]

If you have the lower buy the same manufacturer’s stripped upper (or complete) most do not snap together like ar15. I can tell uou from persoanl experience that the psa stuff does not work with aero. (It works one wa but not the other. I cant remember but i think psa upper will jot work on arro lower but the opposite works. .....i think that was how it was.....if not then it is opposite! Ha ha ha)

For a ny hunting gun i would go with a lightweight 16 inch carbine barrel just so it is lighter to carry around. An 18 inch rifle or mid barrel could add more than a half of pound + pretty easily.

While i am at it.....

A lightened bcg from RCA and their adjustable gas KEY are the only way to go. You can probably save almost a pound going this route (get the titanium one if you can afford it!)

 

[Wicat3]

If you have the lower buy the same manufacturer’s stripped upper (or complete) most do not snap together like ar15. I can tell uou from persoanl experience that the psa stuff does not work with aero. (It works one wa but not the other. I cant remember but i think psa upper will jot work on arro lower but the opposite works. .....i think that was how it was.....if not then it is opposite! Ha ha ha)

For a ny hunting gun i would go with a lightweight 16 inch carbine barrel just so it is lighter to carry around. An 18 inch rifle or mid barrel could add more than a half of pound + pretty easily.

While i am at it.....

A lightened bcg from RCA and their adjustable gas KEY are the only way to go. You can probably save almost a pound going this route (get the titanium one if you can afford it!)

I plan on getting the PSA upper so I can get them to mate correctly. RCA is Rubber city armory?

 

[meketrefe]

So I will move up to an 18" barrel like I had planed in the beginning. I understand the mass production\sales with the compliant parts. I have not really seen how people are permanently fixing magazines only the FRS15 stocks and things like that. I want to make the gun as compliant as I can to eliminate the hassle I could face. I plan on using this rifle to hunt with and I don't want to take a chance to have someone hassle me. I don't mind featureless I just find it hard to find parts like a decent barrel that isn't either really cheap or so expensive it makes no sense. As I said its a hunting rifle so a fixed 5 round magazine isn't an issue for me. The issue is finding the best kit to do so. Something permanent but also something that if I moved or the law gets changed I could have the device removed without damage to the lower.

I have an 18" from ARP that I love but he doesn't run them very often.
I also have krieger in 20" that is a match upper. Very accurate. I used the same a 5R for the 7mm/08 and after lapping the reciever and chambering head-spacing with my own brass this upper is good for long range.

If you want to be "as compliant as you can" then do not build the AR. If you are going to be so worried that anyone is going to bother you then
look at something else. Actually I do believe the galactic stock is the less conspicuous but if an uninformed idiot wants to give you a hard time
they are going to give you want no matter what you do. This legislation is so arbitrary that is a royal PITA. I know from the NYSP education sessions,
local PD, troopers and letters between manufacturers and lawyers that the FRS stock is considered compliant by now. Otherwise they have been
allowed lots of manufacturers sell new non-compliant guns like those one can find in the stores today.

Nothing is permanent, everyone knows that. As per NYSP education sessions conducted by Mr. Green and Mr. Hogan blind pins, rivets, and/or epoxy are
considered permanent measures. Same for magazines and muzzle caps/sleeves to negate the threads. These are facts not online opinions.
Scope and others have minutes and recorded video from those sessions.

These things have been discussed, documented and confirmed 1 Million times in this and other forums.

In the end you have to use what is going to make you happy. Just keep in mind any goon might give you a harder time for a fixed magazine than
an alternative stock w/o traditional grips so don't make the assumption that a pin magazine is safer and definetivelly is not better functionally talking.
If they are uninformed then anything can affect their interpretations, even the weather changes.

I hope this helps you.

 

[Wicat3]

OK so after some thinking I am at the point where If I do a fixed mag it will be with my 6.5 Grendel or 224 valykeire. I am going to go with the thordsen customs for the stock. My question is would I be ok to use one of their 308 buffer tube set up made for the stock or would I need to play around with buffers to get things correct? I saw some people saying buffer tubes were issues with the cycling of bolt carriers

 

[Eddie Gunks]

OK so after some thinking I am at the point where If I do a fixed mag it will be with my 6.5 Grendel or 224 valykeire. I am going to go with the thordsen customs for the stock. My question is would I be ok to use one of their 308 buffer tube set up made for the stock or would I need to play around with buffers to get things correct? I saw some people saying buffer tubes were issues with the cycling of bolt carriers

Use an ar15 buffer if you building an ar15.

Use an ar308 buffer if you building an ar308.

 

[meketrefe]

OK so after some thinking I am at the point where If I do a fixed mag it will be with my 6.5 Grendel or 224 valykeire. I am going to go with the thordsen customs for the stock. My question is would I be ok to use one of their 308 buffer tube set up made for the stock or would I need to play around with buffers to get things correct? I saw some people saying buffer tubes were issues with the cycling of bolt carriers

It depends on what buffer tube and weight you have and it needs to be a short length or otherwise it will interfere.
with short length I mean the one that is identical to the AR15 and the Armalite AR10 and not the DPMS type buffer or
also the extended 8" tube that is extension.

But then while Armalite is the legth you want, compatible with the AR15, the inside diameter of the tube is mil spec vs.
commercial. Commercial is actually stronger. But in my experience most times both work fine as soon as your buffer is
the right size matching the AR15 lenght and since the stock should be the same lenght as an AR15 short stock they
should work fine.

What did you exactly buy? Do you have a measuring tape and some calipers?

I would be surprised if it doesn't work with the thorsten or otherwise you have a long rifle tube or of the rare 8" old armalite tubes.

Mixing and matching could give you the proper length for the buffer and in the case of the 308 you could use a spacer that needs to be drilled
so it can bleed the air out the back. A different story is if you have something longer than the typical short stock.

Whatever you do just stay away from the carbine type port that should have never existed in the first place and you should
be fine given the buffer and tube match the OD/ dimensions. A tad heavier buffer or spring will slow down the carrier that is a
good thing given there is no interference.

Also, I though you wanted this for hunting so the 224 valkyrie is not really a great choice for that.

If you like the 6.5 mm the LBC (les baers) chamber is better than the Grendel chamber in terms of accuracy potential.
They are totally compatible but less baers will give you a better angle into the leads that helps with the bullet jumping
and potential. This might be hard to justify in the AR but IMO in the long run it pays off. Also look for someone who
has beefed up bolts and ideally matched(headspaced) to the chambering job. ARP and young manufacturing bolts are stronger than the AA grendel
and will not break plus they can be used to chamber the LBC/grendel using stronger new generation 7.62x39 bolts and recess vs. the odd grendel.
Grendel bolts break at a higher rate than those other above or even the LWRC but the barrel has to be chambered and headspaced for those bolts. Some are already available to make the LBC/Grendel a better rifle.
I believe les baers continues to sell their LBC uppers.
ASC and PRI magazines are great mags for that but the LBC/grendel can be more problematic to feed due tot he aggresive shoulder so some work in the ramps and mag/lips might be needed.

Also if you look further into this the 6.5mm BR is the best AR15 cartridge caliber and it is simple to make, one
pass with the die and presto. This is simple unlike the BRX and it leaves the grendel in the dust in terms of
power. 31gr of H4895 will propel a 125gr hunting bullet to 2700fps from a 20" barrel. close to 300fps faster
than the grendel. This puts the 6.5 closer to what I believe is a decent hunting round as soon as the animals
are not too large. also a great hog and black bear smasher.

I hope this helps.

If you share those dimensions we can verify the tube will fit.

 

[505PIR]

I built a 6.5 Grendel last summer and had it out this past deer season. I went with an Alexander lower, a Hardened Arms upper, 18in barrel, and an A2 stock. On the flash suppressor problem I got a Northern faux suppressor, it's non functional but it looks better than nothing. With a .308 you need at least an 18in, better yet 20in, barrel. Even with my 6.5 Grendel 18in was the shortest I wanted to go. In terms of weight it's still very light and shoots awesome!

 

[Wicat3]

The Thordsen stock would be for the 308z they have it labeled as a 308 buffer tube set up to work with their stock. I figured it’s a decent price and it would be less of a headache than buying a buffer tube elsewhere and finding out it doesn’t work with the stock. I was just worried as I was reading other forums and saw people having issues with the cycling and function due to mixing and matching or not getting a long enough tube

 

[Eddie Gunks]

The Thordsen stock would be for the 308z they have it labeled as a 308 buffer tube set up to work with their stock. I figured it’s a decent price and it would be less of a headache than buying a buffer tube elsewhere and finding out it doesn’t work with the stock. I was just worried as I was reading other forums and saw people having issues with the cycling and function due to mixing and matching or not getting a long enough tube

Thebuffer tubes are the same. The 308 buffer is smaller cause the 308 bcg is bigger.

 

[meketrefe]

Thebuffer tubes are the same. The 308 buffer is smaller cause the 308 bcg is bigger.

Not if they are aemalite buffers. They have the same dimensions as the ar15 buffer. I think the same weight.
...that is why it is better to measure, it takes the guessing iut of the equation. It would not be the first time folks buy the wrong buffer for the right tube or viceversa. ir even a vendor shipping them mixed up.

 

[Eddie Gunks]

Not if they are aemalite buffers. They have the same dimensions as the ar15 buffer. I think the same weight.
...that is why it is better to measure, it takes the guessing iut of the equation. It would not be the first time folks buy the wrong buffer for the right tube or viceversa. ir even a vendor shipping them mixed up.

Ha ha ha. Buffers that are the same length will have a problem if used with a 308 bcg. 308 bcg need a shorter buffer. Or they may not lock back and may not feed correctly

Are we talking about 308 rifles with a 308 bcg? Lets be sure we are talking apples and apples here.

 

[meketrefe]

Ha ha ha. Buffers that are the same length will have a problem if used with a 308 bcg. 308 bcg need a shorter buffer. Or they may not lock back and may not feed correctly

Are we talking about 308 rifles with a 308 bcg? Lets be sure we are talking apples and apples here.

Eddie Skunks,

I said Armalite. Take your meds! lol

 

[Eddie Gunks]

Eddie Skunks,

I said Armalite. Take your meds! lol

View attachment 38294

Who uses or builds Armalite?

 

[meketrefe]

Who uses or builds Armalite?

Maybe the same who use mega or Remington? lol Armalite uses them! lol.

 

[dsdmmat]

Armalite 308 buffer tubes are 3/4 in longer internally to accommodate for using the longer Buffer ( AR15 carbine size). Their gas tubes are also longer I forget by how much. The Armalite upper receiver has a different thread pitch for the barrel nut. Finally I believe the bolt and barrel extension are different than the DPMS ( I have never used their bolt or barrels so I do not know how much different they are.) That is why it is very important to pick a pattern and stic with it.