Can America be saved?

[Drinkthekoolaid]

I think it might be an interesting conversation to have, and it's one many of us are passionate about.



In my own opinion, I think America as we know it in a traditional, unified, cohesive, sovereign state is dead and never coming back. We're still the greatest country in the world but the "golden age" of American freedom, prosperity, stability and liberty are behind us.


I think we are going to witness increased tension, civil unrest, competing special interests, more totalitarian control, more liberty and rights restrictions, a more polarized political system.

The system is gridlocked, no one is happy, we no longer have shared goals and ideals of what America should be.

I think at this point the best possible outcome is if enough people vote with their feet and self migrate to areas of similar political beliefs. Ideally what would happen is we form loose confederations of autonomous states that cooperate together but have the freedom to make their own rules and laws as they see fit. If Cali wants to be a crazy liberal paradise let them. If Wyoming wants to be a libertarian utopia let them. States need to have more power to enact laws that their citizens want. What happens in California shouldn't matter to laws in Tennessee. Etc.


If that can't be done peacefully I think but will go the way of the Balkans or an increasingly authoritarian federal government will consolidate power. Either scenario is no good
.

 

[GOPerfect]

I think it might be an interesting conversation to have, and it's one many of us are passionate about.



In my own opinion, I think America as we know it in a traditional, unified, cohesive, sovereign state is dead and never coming back. We're still the greatest country in the world but the "golden age" of American freedom, prosperity, stability and liberty are behind us.


I think we are going to witness increased tension, civil unrest, competing special interests, more totalitarian control, more liberty and rights restrictions, a more polarized political system.

The system is gridlocked, no one is happy, we no longer have shared goals and ideals of what America should be.

I think at this point the best possible outcome is if enough people vote with their feet and self migrate to areas of similar political beliefs. Ideally what would happen is we form loose confederations of autonomous states that cooperate together but have the freedom to make their own rules and laws as they see fit. If Cali wants to be a crazy liberal paradise let them. If Wyoming wants to be a libertarian utopia let them. States need to have more power to enact laws that their citizens want. What happens in California shouldn't matter to laws in Tennessee. Etc.


If that can't be done peacefully I think but will go the way of the Balkans or an increasingly authoritarian federal government will consolidate power. Either scenario is no good
.

I will begin by saying that the United States is a great Country. The greatest? Not to sure about that. But that my friend is a conversation for a different day.

Can the Nation be saved? I am not even sure what that means. We are a nation so divided that I cannot even fathom what a saved nation would look like. Saved in the eyes of whom? People like you and I? We have a common vision of what a saved America would look like, our vision is very different that a Woke Libtard. Saved maybe in our eyes, our views and within our vales, but not that of the far left. Not the same vision as the ignorant haters that we are surrounded by.

I equate the current status of America to the Nursery Rhyme, Humpty Dumpty. We all know that ole Humpty fell off the wall. We all know that he had a great fall. All the Kings men were unable to repair him. They could not, with all of the skill, make him whole again. I here they had vast knowledge and still could not make him great again.

This is where we are now. Nearly every type of inner system in the US is broken.
Social Programs are not fixable.
Our Military is turning into a social experiment.
Police departments are broken.
The Justice system is not repairable.
Schools and the way we educate our children is past the point of repair.
Our infrastructure has been decimated. This list goes on and on. Every facet of the United States has been toyed with for so many years, it is not possible to repair.
Our morals are fading. Our ethics are gone. Good will to others is on the brink of destruction.

Hate in the US is to a point of no return.

The end is in sight. All great empires come to an end. Something better will be built. The strong will be victorious and they will rebuild a better, a stronger nation. Out of the ruble great things will come again.

 

[Rap]

I think the convulsions currently wracking the nation were inevitable. The genie doesn't go back into the bottle, so the only way to move is forward. The soul/conscience of the nation is being demonstrated and tested right now, in real time. Notions of returning to an earlier greatness (MAGA) typically relate to social/power dynamics which are fundamentally at odds with an increasingly powerful segment of the population. It's time to map out what America CAN be. Balkanization would mean the end of any semblance of real leverage in world affairs. America needs to get ahead of the curve.

 

[spat]

We survived the Civil War. But we came out of it a much different nation (states rights being massively curtailed, and power far more centralized).

We will eventually come through this, but what the country will look like is a big unknown.

 

[GOPerfect]

I think the convulsions currently racking the nation were inevitable. The genie doesn't go back into the bottle, so the only way to move is forward. The soul/conscience of the nation is being demonstrated and tested right now, in real time. Notions of returning to an earlier greatness (MAGA) typically relate to social/power dynamics which are fundamentally at odds with an increasingly powerful segment of the population. It's time to map out what America CAN be. Balkanization would mean the end of any semblance of real leverage in world affairs. America needs to get ahead of the curve.

I like your thoughts of moving forward. My fear is what is that forward? Whose forward is it? Yours, mine, or the guy down the street? All I see is us moving backwards.

The idea of MAGA....

Too many took that for a bad thing. They focused on the evil that once hurt the US. They did not look at all of the positives of yesteryear. There were times of greatness in our past. Too often, people look to the past and see only the bad that occurred.

I was talking to a couple of crims the other day and we discussed how difficult it is in the inner cities to be a success. Both of them talked about the parents and their grandparents being much more of a success because all of the industry and factory jobs that used to be here in the Buffalo area. This is what some of MAGA means. Bringing back decent paying jobs to the city's. Bring back decent paying jobs that do not require large amount of education. Too often the ones on the street hustle to get a quick buck due to the lack of decent jobs. Not the minimum wage burger flipping jobs.

We need to go back a bit, to a time when hard work was good for the soul. An honest day for an honest pay check. Affordable living conditions. Go back to a time when people were able to pull their own weight. I think those days are gone forever. They are gone because of the easy money; the social programs that have enslaved too many Americans. We are seeing the same thing now with the extra money for unemployment, people don't want to go back to work and give up that easy ride.

 

[Drinkthekoolaid]

I think the convulsions currently wracking the nation were inevitable. The genie doesn't go back into the bottle, so the only way to move is forward. The soul/conscience of the nation is being demonstrated and tested right now, in real time. Notions of returning to an earlier greatness (MAGA) typically relate to social/power dynamics which are fundamentally at odds with an increasingly powerful segment of the population. It's time to map out what America CAN be. Balkanization would mean the end of any semblance of real leverage in world affairs. America needs to get ahead of the curve.

MAGA can mean what you want it to mean. I guess how you interpret it depends on your personality or where you get your media coverage from.

CNN would say it's a bunch of racist backwards jerks.

Those same "racist backwards jerks" think MAGA means going back to traditional America first. Good American jobs. American manufacturing, American non-intervention foreign policy, 2 parent households, family stability, a real actual middle class, respect for one another, national unity. That's what it means to me.


It has nothing to do with anything remotely related to race, sexual orientation, slavery, segregation or anything even close. The media eats that shit up and pushes that narrative specifically because they don't want us all on the same team on the same side pulling in the same direction. They want to drive wedges and create unrest and conflict.

 

[Saltwater60]

In short the only way I see it being saved is to stay the United States a s have a federal government but have a divided two section system of rules, laws, and taxes. In essence split the USA into a liberal side and conservative side with one overall federal government.

 

[spat]

MAGA can mean what you want it to mean. I guess how you interpret it depends on your personality or where you get your media coverage from.

CNN would say it's a bunch of racist backwards jerks.

Those same "racist backwards jerks" think MAGA means going back to traditional America first. Good American jobs. American manufacturing, American non-intervention foreign policy, 2 parent households, family stability, a real actual middle class, respect for one another, national unity. That's what it means to me.


It has nothing to do with anything remotely related to race, sexual orientation, slavery, segregation or anything even close. The media eats that shit up and pushes that narrative specifically because they don't want us all on the same team on the same side pulling in the same direction. They want to drive wedges and create unrest and conflict.

Before you can make something great, you need to decide what greatness means.

This is the source of the division in the US today. We cannot agree on what greatness looks like, let alone how to achieve it.

The fundamental differences are whether freedom or equality are paramount. They are mutually exclusive goals.

 

[Drinkthekoolaid]

Before you can make something great, you need to decide what greatness means.

This is the source of the division in the US today. We cannot agree on what greatness looks like, let alone how to achieve it.

The fundamental differences are whether freedom or equality are paramount. They are mutually exclusive goals.

Which is why I think the only way to save this country is to "fundamentally transform" it. Hey, I think I've heard that before....


I think the federal government needs to step way back and let the states have way more power. States need to be able to make their own laws independent of the federal government.

Here's what I mean, a few examples If Tennessee wants to allow their residents to own belt fed machine guns and howitzers, that's fine they should. If California wants to ban all guns in their state that's fine.

If south Carolina wants to eliminate all refugee resettlement and illegal immigration 100% and on the flip side if Oregon wants every town to be made up of 5% international refugees, and open immigration for all that should be fine.

If Massachusetts wants universal healthcare and south Dakota wants no part of it that should be fine.

If Minnesota wants to allow rioting and aggressive protesting fine. If Kentucky wants to make a law saying protest in the road is illegal and you do so at your own risk, and if you are run over then it's your own fault, then Kentucky should be able to make that law if their voters support it.



States need to be given the power to enact laws as they see fit independent of the other states and federal government. The federal government needs to stop over ruling states. If this was allowed to happen people can vote with their feet. People can self sort and migrate into areas that share their views and ideas. Far left blue states will be happy, they will have control to enact socialist multicultural utopias. Middle of the road states can do their things. Far right states can do their own thing and not have to worry about being told they cling to God guns and country. It's the only way to make everyone happy and to remain as a functional union.

If not, then like a bad marriage, we have reached the point of irreconcilable differences and we are in store for am ugly divorce.

State governor's should have more practical every day power than a national president.

Each state needs to have power to do their own thing and make their citizens happy. We are now too big and too diverse to be unified any longer under a common set of goals, ideals, rules and cultural norms. We are essentially an multicultural empire being ruled by the elites and special interests.

We can still have our national sovereignty, military, trade deals, etc but the federal government should be exponentially reduced. Right there is why saving the country won't work. When was the last time a government willingly gave up power? Yea that's what I thought.

 

[That_FNG]

all empires fall. We are in the twilight of the American empire. History repeats, it always has and always will

 

[tirwin1]

Short answer is yes it can be saved. We survived the civil war and the partisan divide was worse than now. Longer term solution means overhauling the education system. No country can survive if it's citizens are taught to hate their country from ages 5 thru 21.

 

[prambo]

No.

 

[Curmudgeon]

In my own opinion, I think America as we know it in a traditional, unified, cohesive, sovereign state is dead and never coming back

I think if you study the rise and fall of the great civilizations of history you'll find the roadmap to where we're headed. It's like expecting to live forever - ok, but you'll be the first.

The soul/conscience of the nation is being demonstrated and tested right now, in real time.

I liked your take, but I'm not sure where you're going with the part I quoted. I kind of think it aligns with the idea of "zeitgeist" or the spirit of the time. That changes whether you like it or not IMO. Let me know where you were going with that if you want.

 

[Grimscale]

States need to be given the power to enact laws as they see fit independent of the other states and federal government...If this was allowed to happen people can vote with their feet. People can self sort and migrate into areas that share their views and ideas.

The whole point to the Constitution and the Bill of Rights was to ensure that ALL citizens of the United States could retain their Rights regardless of what State they lived in.

Be assured, if I have to flee my home because this State decided to "enact Laws as they see fit" shit will get real.
That's not a "United" States. We would look like the European Union, but with far less harmony between member States.
Do you really want to have to show your passport just to go to PA?

And how will the Federal government tax these disparate States to cover things like defense of the Country, roads, etc.?
What happens if you live in one red-leaning State, and want to travel to another red-leaning State, but there's a blue-leaning State in the way that will arrest you the moment you set foot in it?

 

[spat]

I think we are closer to the fall of the Roman Republic than the fall of the Roman Empire.

Remember, Rome continued on for hundreds of years after the republic fell, and really peaked in it's power as an empire not as a republic.

 

[Drinkthekoolaid]

The whole point to the Constitution and the Bill of Rights was to ensure that ALL citizens of the United States could retain their Rights regardless of what State they lived in.

Be assured, if I have to flee my home because this State decided to "enact Laws as they see fit" shit will get real.
That's not a "United" States. We would look like the European Union, but with far less harmony between member States.
Do you really want to have to show your passport just to go to PA?

And how will the Federal government tax these disparate States to cover things like defense of the Country, roads, etc.?
What happens if you live in one red-leaning State, and want to travel to another red-leaning State, but there's a blue-leaning State in the way that will arrest you the moment you set foot in it?

I totally get it. Completely agree.

But I don't know any other way to save this country. I think the only way is to make us 50 separate autonomous states under a United federal government.

I don't know.

There are no easy answers. That's what makes the position we are in so difficult. The options we are left with are bad and worse.

 

[Grimscale]

There are no easy answers.

No, the answer isn't going to be easy. It's going to require that America wake the fuck up and, more importantly, GROW THE FUCK UP!
Both political parties need to stop shitting on the Constitution. People need to realize that not everyone believes as they do, and that's fine. Just let them live their lives and they will let you live yours.

Or we can all keep trying to force everyone to live as we would want them to and watch the world burn.

that means:
1) Let people worship as they see fit (as long as it doesn't infringe on someone else's Rights. ie: no human sacrifice, proselytization, diverting public funds to this or that religion, tax exemption for only certain religions, etc.). Let them speak their minds....PEACEFULLY.
2) Let people own what they want to own as far as firearms and non-crew-based weapons. Unless they misbehave, then throw the book at them.

etc.


There's no reason this won't work, except people seem to have this desire to make everyone into their own image. Until people stop being 3 year old schoolyard bullies America is a lost cause.

 

[Drinkthekoolaid]

No, the answer isn't going to be easy. It's going to require that America wake the fuck up and, more importantly, GROW THE FUCK UP!
Both political parties need to stop shitting on the Constitution. People need to realize that not everyone believes as they do, and that's fine. Just let them live their lives and they will let you live yours.

Or we can all keep trying to force everyone to live as we would want them to and watch the world burn.

that means:
1) Let people worship as they see fit (as long as it doesn't infringe on someone else's Rights. ie: no human sacrifice, proselytization, diverting public funds to this or that religion, tax exemption for only certain religions, etc.). Let them speak their minds....PEACEFULLY.
2) Let people own what they want to own as far as firearms and non-crew-based weapons. Unless they misbehave, then throw the book at them.

etc.


There's no reason this won't work, except people seem to have this desire to make everyone into their own image. Until people stop being 3 year old schoolyard bullies America is a lost cause.

I agree.

But hoping all that happens isn't realistic.

The Marxists aren't going to just go away.

The fringe left isn't going away.

Our politicians aren't going to suddenly care about their constituents more than their own wealth and special interest donors.

The universities aren't going to stop indoctrinating future socialists.


Unfortunately in my opinion, our social unrest is going to continue to increase under our current system. The left won't be happy because they aren't getting changes as quickly as they want. The right won't be happy either. No one will be happy. And when people feel disenfranchised and that voting makes no difference bad things happen. This is our current path. The system is gridlocked only the elites are getting what they want.


People need another method of having more control and influence and making voting matter again. Politicians need to be held accountable. By basically giving states more power and less federal power it would accomplish that. The left can do things they want in their states and the right can do things they want in their states. States that are middle of the road can do their thing as well.

Of course that method has flaws but I don't know if a more realistic way to make everyone happy and to prevent unrest and CW2 or an insurgency under our current model.

 

[SmallGameAddict]

I'll be that guy.

Yes, I think it can be saved, but at this point, only at gun point.

Another Civil War seems to be inevitable.

 

[Blimey]

I don’t think so. It’s been circling the drain for twenty years and as it gets closer it speeds up.

ignorance of history by a largely idiotic population sated on screens and food ensures we are going to repeat the nasty parts Of history: socialism, repression of speech, ostracizing. The end result won’t be good.

 

[Defilade]

We would be just fine if the Constitution was upheld. That is the bedrock of our Great Nation.

 

[Drinkthekoolaid]

We would be just fine if the Constitution was upheld. That is the bedrock of our Great Nation.

Totally agree. But the constitution has been trampled on for decades. It's only going to get worse the more time passes.

 

[GOYABEAN]

First eliminate all Karen's

 

[prambo]

No, the answer isn't going to be easy. It's going to require that America wake the fuck up and, more importantly, GROW THE FUCK UP!
Both political parties need to stop shitting on the Constitution. People need to realize that not everyone believes as they do, and that's fine. Just let them live their lives and they will let you live yours.

Or we can all keep trying to force everyone to live as we would want them to and watch the world burn.

that means:
1) Let people worship as they see fit (as long as it doesn't infringe on someone else's Rights. ie: no human sacrifice, proselytization, diverting public funds to this or that religion, tax exemption for only certain religions, etc.). Let them speak their minds....PEACEFULLY.
2) Let people own what they want to own as far as firearms and non-crew-based weapons. Unless they misbehave, then throw the book at them.

etc.


There's no reason this won't work, except people seem to have this desire to make everyone into their own image. Until people stop being 3 year old schoolyard bullies America is a lost cause.

I couldn't agree more with your post, or those of @GOPerfect and @Drinkthekoolaid .

Wasn't going to get involved in this because, in comparison to others on this forum, the posters here are not "unarmed opponents" in the verbal or cognitive arts, as it were. But, if you're afraid of a few cuts and bruises just don't play, right?

Not because I might take a verbal beating, but because there are so few viable answers anymore, and that most are clearly so distasteful and disturbing.

The ideas expressed above, IMHO, are being discussed and debated by many in the "liberty/freedom community", which in and of itself is a disturbing phrase or idea. Shouldn't everyone value those ideals? - obviously not.

IMHO, where the country is now has resulted from the success of The Frankfurt School of socialism - Marcuse, Gramsci and Adorno, among others. I'll call it Gramscian socialism as many others do.

The move of the Frankfurt School from Germany to NYC (Columbia University), because they were threatened by the rise of Hitler and the NSDAP, was pivotal to the rise of their "brand" of socialism. As an aside, a socialist is just a patient communist.

Also as an aside, fleeing the Nazis, which was probably viewed as heroic by American socialists, is ironic because Nazism was just a different flavor of "social justice" fueled socialism - different sides of the same coin.

Central to Gramscian socialism is "the long march through the institutions", a phrase coined by some obscure German commie in the 60s.

The education system was the first target, and the most important - IMHO it is unequivocal that they have succeeded in virtually complete domination of the US education system, now breaching the final defense lines - STEM programs. Articles have even appeared saying math, the purest of the hard sciences, is "racist" (if you can stomach it - How Does Race Affect a Student's Math Education? ).

It could arguably be posited that the COVID-19 debacle was a "field expedient" weapon used to breach the hard sciences decisively.

It was pointed out by someone on the COVID-19 thread (I think @spat or @Drinkthekoolaid ) that much of the accepted research on this is completely flawed, if not purposefully bogus. The retraction of papers on the use of hydroxychloroquine by Lancet and NEJMed, only after a major shitstorm, are case in point. They were poor science at best, and probably totally fabricated.

And obviously being used to influence public opinion, medical research, vaccine development, etc.

With the education system, and about 4-5 generations of Americans subject to this manipulation, the pieces seemed to have fallen into place...the "revolution" is proceeding apace in most corners of American society. I don't need to repeat any of it...everyone here has seen it, heard it, dealt with it at work, posted it, etc.

Not sure "the revolution" can be stopped - there appears to a momentum to it now, and people behind the scenes (although it's obvious who they are) are able to switch their armed street thugs (Antifa/Black Bloc/BLM) on and off at will. All 3 "organizations" are demonstrably Marxist and become more preternaturally violent with every passing day.

There are only 4 choices one can make under the present conditions:

1) join the "revolution" - nope!!;

2) avoid the "revolution" - how, where and for how long??;

3) organize a "counter-revolution" within the system(s) in place - how, with whom, why bother??: and

4) "Cry 'Havoc!,' and let slip the dogs of war." - the bitterest pill of all...but effective medicine is often distasteful.

 

[Defilade]

First eliminate all Karen's

Oh the Karens are on Attack when not snuggling their cats!

 

[TEOTWAWKI inc.]

It can only be rebuilt from the ashes, but the problem is the damn thing won't stay lit. I thought we almost had it this time.

 

[ProgSpear]

Here’s an interesting theory. Im not sure I agree with it, except for the crashing part...

Amerca Is Not Falling into Tyranny - America Is Falling *out* of Tyranny, after a Century of Bureaucratic Despotism

This photo made available by the U.S. National Archives shows a portion of the United States Constitution with Articles V-VII. For the past two centuries, constitutional amendments have originated in Congress, where they need the support of two-thirds of both houses, and then the approval of at...

www.redstate.com

 

[SmallGameAddict]

Here’s an interesting theory. Im not sure I agree with it, except for the crashing part...

Amerca Is Not Falling into Tyranny - America Is Falling *out* of Tyranny, after a Century of Bureaucratic Despotism

This photo made available by the U.S. National Archives shows a portion of the United States Constitution with Articles V-VII. For the past two centuries, constitutional amendments have originated in Congress, where they need the support of two-thirds of both houses, and then the approval of at...

www.redstate.com

I agree. Interesting.

If the current deficits are any indication, the falling apart of the Welfare State is true. Certainly no politician is going to sacrifice their paycheck to prop up a social program budget.

 

[ArmedCorgi]

Here’s an interesting theory. Im not sure I agree with it, except for the crashing part...

Amerca Is Not Falling into Tyranny - America Is Falling *out* of Tyranny, after a Century of Bureaucratic Despotism

This photo made available by the U.S. National Archives shows a portion of the United States Constitution with Articles V-VII. For the past two centuries, constitutional amendments have originated in Congress, where they need the support of two-thirds of both houses, and then the approval of at...

www.redstate.com

It is a good article. I can remember a few years ago, reading an article I believe titled "The Rise of the Fourth Branch" and it talked about the federal bureaucracies of un-elected officials who have gained in power and are outside of the checks and balances of the other three branches. Perhaps I can dig it up and post it here. It was WaPo of all places.

The Rise of the Fourth Branch of Government

Below is today’s column in the Washington Post’s Outlook Section on the dangers of America’s growing administrative state. Ask any elementary student and you will hear how the Fra…

jonathanturley.org

 

[prambo]

[FO] The Jungle Grows Back