Casino Carry

[Chevusa]

What’s your take on CC in a casino? Specifically a Seneca Indian casino?

Some claim that the property is Indian land therefore not in US or NY boundaries making your permit invalid, and them able to make up their own laws. This doesn’t appear to be true however, from my quick glance at things. I will do further research later and seek legal opinions on the matter, but this is just to take your temperatures.

I wasn’t able to find anything on their website about it but a search from the US Securities and Exchange Commission reveals the following:

“(10) The Nation prohibits the possession of firearms in its Class III gaming facilities except by persons authorized by law and does not permit persons under the age of 18 to be admitted to any Class III gaming facility or to place any wager, directly or indirectly. The SGA maintains and shares with SGC a list of persons barred from the Class III gaming facilities because of criminal histories or associations posing a threat to gaming integrity or safety.”

The prior doesn’t look to be a law but more of an operations rule. A quick look back at any problems the casino has had always shows they they call the local or state police in to handle the situation. That means any case would be prosecuted by one of our local DA offices. That tells us there isn’t any secret Indian prison they can take you to for violating their wishes. It also means that the DA isn’t going to prosecute you for something non existent in NY penal law.

I understand they can ask me to leave and/or ban me from coming back. I’m not interested in such nonsense. I am interested in what is legal and what is not.

What’s your take? Is this the equivalent to WalMart saying no guns allowed or does it mean something more?

 

[masterswimmer]

“(10) The Nation prohibits the possession of firearms in its Class III gaming facilities except by persons authorized by law and does not permit persons under the age of 18 to be admitted to any Class III gaming facility or to place any wager, directly or indirectly. The SGA maintains and shares with SGC a list of persons barred from the Class III gaming facilities because of criminal histories or associations posing a threat to gaming integrity or safety.”

Isn't an unrestricted CC permit the authorization by law required to carry there?

I am not a lawyer.

 

[Cooolone]

Is it on Indian Land? Then IMO you'd need to check their policy's and laws (Tribal).

Pretty sure otherwise it's Federal... And there's No Federal Law regarding carrying (on Indian Land by Non-Indian) is there, lol. Securities Exchange Commission is a stretch as they can certainly regulate the "gaming" but not sure of their standing to stretch into activities not related to it... Just my take.

And yeah, the typical if you can't possess it legally there (Federal or State), I wouldn't advise carrying on a reservation. But hey, if the Tribal Leaders were to grant you permission, who then would be able to usurp their Jurisdiction/Sovereignty!? Now that would be interesting...

 

[gun_slinger_boy]

You planning on open carry or something?

 

[Chevusa]

Is it on Indian Land? Then IMO you'd need to check their policy's and laws (Tribal).

Pretty sure otherwise it's Federal... And there's No Federal Law regarding carrying (on Indian Land by Non-Indian) is there, lol. Securities Exchange Commission is a stretch as they can certainly regulate the "gaming" but not sure of their standing to stretch into activities not related to it... Just my take.

And yeah, the typical if you can't possess it legally there (Federal or State), I wouldn't advise carrying on a reservation. But hey, if the Tribal Leaders were to grant you permission, who then would be able to usurp their Jurisdiction/Sovereignty!? Now that would be interesting...

I'm not concerned with their policies. I'm concerned with what is lawful and what is not. I can't find any special "Indian law", and if they had it I doubt they could charge me as an American with a violation of it. As I said, any cases I've found involved the calling of local town or state police. The DA isn't/can't prosecute me for something not in the Penal law. As for carrying on a reservation, I wouldn't be the least bit concerned with doing so. My permit is valid throughout the state, notwithstanding local policies and laws.

 

[Chevusa]

You planning on open carry or something?

Nope. Would you conceal carry in a federal facility? If not, then you've answered your own question. I am talking about a matter of lawful vs unlawful. Wasn't looking for cute one-liners.

 

[gun_slinger_boy]

Nope. Would you conceal carry in a federal facility? If not, then you've answered your own question. I am talking about a matter of lawful vs unlawful. Wasn't looking for cute one-liners.

How does your question about me conceal carrying answer my question?

 

[Airborneguy]

Casinos have security which could detain you for trespassing, which you would be doing if you disregarded their posted signs. They could likely press tresspassing charges immediately as you had been afforded warning via the posted signs.

 

[Chevusa]

How does your question about me conceal carrying answer my question?

Because your silly answer was pretty much it doesn't matter if nobody sees it. So would you walk into the FBI building downtown carrying as long as you had it concealed? I didn't think so. You're being a jackass.

 

[Chevusa]

Casinos have security which could detain you for trespassing, which you would be doing if you disregarded their posted signs. They could likely press tresspassing charges immediately as you had been afforded warning via the posted signs.

Well, we know in NYS those signs carry no force of law, so I would have to be specifically told that they do not want me carrying and to leave and I would have to refuse to leave for it to be a trespass. Also there is no way to determine if I saw a sign and willfully ignored it, but again if I did that is not unlawful. If I put up a speed limit sign in my front lawn, nobody has to obey it.

 

[gun_slinger_boy]

Because your silly answer was pretty much it doesn't matter if nobody sees it. So would you walk into the FBI building downtown carrying as long as you had it concealed? I didn't think so. You're being a jackass.

Nothing but questions so far. No "silly" answers. I still don't see what me carrying has to do with anything. And you keep bringing up federal buildings blah blah blah. Again what does that have to do with anything? Anyway you seem to already have it all figured out so carry on. (You're also being a douche)

 

[Chevusa]

I was able to find a story where a guy was arrested at the casino after threatening to shoot someone. He was turned over to Niagara Falls police. His charges were menacing and Unlawful Possession of a weapon - 4th degree. It seems like there would have been more (and more serious) charges if it were actually illegal to carry there.

'I'll shoot you': Man arrested on gun charge at Seneca Niagara Casino

A Buffalo man was arrested on multiple charges early Tuesday morning at the Seneca Niagara Resort & Casino after threatening to shoot a man during an incident on the gaming

buffalonews.com

 

[Chevusa]

Nothing but questions so far. No "silly" answers. I still don't see what me carrying has to do with anything. And you keep bringing up federal buildings blah blah blah. Again what does that have to do with anything? Anyway you seem to already have it all figured out so carry on. (You're also being a douche)

No, your response was "are you gonna open carry?". You already know that I'm not and that it is illegal to do so. A silly response. You've contributed nothing. Go play in the street.

 

[Chevusa]

Just to add - in order to be trespassed I would have to be personally told by the owner or other authorized person to leave, then refuse to do so. We are getting away from my intent of the post. I can't find any special "Indian law" regarding this, and I am quite sure that would only apply to people in the tribe anyway. From the looks of it it's no different than going to any other store or building where they "prefer" that you don't carry.

 

[GOPerfect]

I have never gone into an Indian casino.

If they have a sign up and you decide to ignore it, they can ask you to leave. That is it (I think).

I have been able to find nothing specific.

 

[Chevusa]

Ok I found something.

"No person, including security department personnel, shall possess, or be permitted to possess any firearm within any Gaming Facility without the prior express written consent of both the Nation Law Enforcement Agency and the State, except for duly authorized personnel of each. The SGA shall post in a conspicuous location at every entrance to each Ganiing Facility, a sign stating: "No person shall possess any firearm within this Gaming Facility."

It looks like they can impose a civil fine. Not sure if any of this would hold water with me, as I am not a tribe member.

Check out page 17-19 and see what you think.

https://www.nigc.gov/images/uploads/indianlands/senecanation070207df.pdf

 

[Chevusa]

Criminal Jurisdiction over Non-Indians: The U.S. Supreme Court decision Oliphant v. Suquamish Indian Tribe, 435 U.S. 191 (1978) limits the ability of Native Nations to try and punish non-Indians. Under this decision, Native Nations generally do not have jurisdiction to prosecute non-Indians.

When it comes to civil, it is a bit less clear, but it looks very unlikely.

https://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R43324.pdf

 

[Darth]

I've done it.

 

[Doc8404]

Casinos have security which could detain you for trespassing, which you would be doing if you disregarded their posted signs. They could likely press tresspassing charges immediately as you had been afforded warning via the posted signs.

then why didn’t that apply at the movies?
or the mall?

 

[Marine Cpl]

Because your silly answer was pretty much it doesn't matter if nobody sees it. So would you walk into the FBI building downtown carrying as long as you had it concealed? I didn't think so. You're being a jackass.

If there are no metal detectors... It happens everyday at post offices and schools while picking up kids. It happens every day at federal government offices. Most people here have done so. I would say the majority.

 

[Drinkthekoolaid]

Indians use "Marshalls" on their territory.

My understanding is they are like a step up from security guards. They really have no legal authority to arrest a non Indian and they have to call a trooper or sheriff or another agency to have someone arrested.

They may be able to give out traffic tickets but I'm not sure on that either way.


I understand your question. The Senecas are big about the idea of pushing their land as being sovereign territory. But I don't think they can have a separate set of laws and a means to enforce them over you as a non Indian. I could be wrong though.

This isn't a legal opinion just my practical opinion, I would tend to think bit would be treated the same if you were carrying at any private property that doesn't want you carrying. If you don't leave promptly then you can be charged with trespassing.

 

[Airborneguy]

Wow in every response you’re acting like a douche. I see why so many beat on you here now.

 

[Airborneguy]

then why didn’t that apply at the movies?
or the mall?

Remember I said they “likely” can. I’d need to see the signs they have. I have never been to an Indian casino in NY so I don’t know what they say. If they are just your typical gun with a red circle over it signs, then yeah they mean nothing and you’d have to refuse to leave to be arrested for tresspassing.

 

[spat]

There is only one relevant question.

What would they charge you with ?

Not violation of of PL 265, your permit exempts you under PL 400.

Trespassing maybe ? As has been pointed out it's a possibility, but what's the penalty for that, do you care ?

What SEC law would they charge you with, some tortured interpretation of interfering with commerce ?

Whenever you ask "is this legal ?", you are asking the wrong question. By default everything is legal, until a specific law makes it illegal. The right question is "is this illegal ?" If you can't find a specific answer about what chapter and verse of the law makes it illegal, then it isn't.

Then the next questions are "what is the penalty ?" and "how likely am I to get caught ?". If it's a $50 fine, and you're almost certain to get away with it without getting caught, do you even care if it's illegal ?

 

[MikeyCNY]

Nope. Would you conceal carry in a federal facility? If not, then you've answered your own question. I am talking about a matter of lawful vs unlawful. Wasn't looking for cute one-liners.

Federal buildings have security you pass through, including magnetometers. Casinos have no such screening, so unless you're printing or not concealing well they would not know.

In late 2018 when I visited Las Vegas I looked into and considered bringing my CCW, but with all of the shows we were seeing I didn't want to risk being searched. Turns out there were ZERO screenings, no metal detectors, etc. And this was less than a year after the mass shooting.

Obviously Indian casinos are different, being on tribal lands.

 

[Bob]

A couple of years ago, I went to Turning Stone with some friends. One of my friends reached out to the Oneida Indian Nation police about carry at the casino. Their policy at the time was to allow concealed carry throughout the entire complex except for on the gaming floor. They didn't search you or make you pass through a metal detector to get onto the gaming floor, but if caught, you'd be asked to leave. There were certain venues that prohibited carry at certain times (i.e. nightclubs) and you had to go through a metal detector to get in.

Not sure how the Senecas feel about carry in their casinos.

 

[Chevusa]

If there are no metal detectors... It happens everyday at post offices and schools while picking up kids. It happens every day at federal government offices. Most people here have done so. I would say the majority.

I know it happens. I was checking to see if it was illegal or not. Sometimes people jump from buildings and live. That doesn't mean I'm going to try.

 

[Chevusa]

Remember I said they “likely” can. I’d need to see the signs they have. I have never been to an Indian casino in NY so I don’t know what they say. If they are just your typical gun with a red circle over it signs, then yeah they mean nothing and you’d have to refuse to leave to be arrested for tresspassing.

The SGA shall post in a conspicuous location at every entrance to each Ganiing Facility, a sign stating: "No person shall possess any firearm within this Gaming Facility."

I can't tie that sign into any laws. Sounds like more of a request than a lawful order to me. It doesn't say under penalty of law or anything. In states that have "real" signs, they usually list the penal code and there are regulations for what size the font must be and what specific height and location they must be posted. If the signs don't meet those standards even they are not legal.

 

[Doc8404]

Not that this helps...

not too long I ago i ran into a retired police officer from Oneida County that works for the Oneida Nation Police Department.
I asked him about me carrying and stopping at the gas stations. He said there’s nothing they can do other than ask you to leave if they see it.

then I asked about the casinos. He said they don’t do shit there. Security and NYSP cover that.

 

[Chevusa]

There is only one relevant question.

What would they charge you with ?

Not violation of of PL 265, your permit exempts you under PL 400.

Trespassing maybe ? As has been pointed out it's a possibility, but what's the penalty for that, do you care ?

What SEC law would they charge you with, some tortured interpretation of interfering with commerce ?

Whenever you ask "is this legal ?", you are asking the wrong question. By default everything is legal, until a specific law makes it illegal. The right question is "is this illegal ?" If you can't find a specific answer about what chapter and verse of the law makes it illegal, then it isn't.

Then the next questions are "what is the penalty ?" and "how likely am I to get caught ?". If it's a $50 fine, and you're almost certain to get away with it without getting caught, do you even care if it's illegal ?

This is a good take on it. Trespassing is a violation. I certainly wouldn't lose any sleep over it. After reading the replies here and after doing a bit more research, I've pretty much made up my mind that I will carry normally when going to the casino. The only reason I gave it a second thought is because I heard that they are sovereign land and have their own laws and is equivalent to taking your gun into another country. None of that seems true however. One interesting thing I did find was if a non-tribe member is charged with a crime on a reservation, it is handled by the Feds. It would be the US attorneys office as the prosecutor. I guess I'll try to see if there is a federal law on this.