Conversation with a NYS Pistol Permit Holder

[capitalcrew]

I'm not disagreeing with you on what the 2nd guarantees. I'm disagreeing with you on what that means in this state. What it means in this state is squat.

"judges don't create law, and if they attach arbitrary rulings to the process can and should be challenged and absent extenuating circumstances as I mentioned, will lose."

This has already been proven false by a legal decision I posted in this thread. A guy was denied because he was VAGUE in his answers, that's it, he challenged it and he LOST.

What's right and what's wrong are not the issues here, the issue here is what is REAL and what is fantasy. The reality is that your permit MAY be issued at the judge's discretion. That's it! That's all! All of the work you put into applying only grants you the privilege of having a judge ask you some questions and make a decision. There are no guarantees. Nothing you can do assures you will get a permit at all much less an unrestricted one.

This is the reality of NYS. I may not agree with it but that doesn't change it.

 

[Greywolf224]

I'm not disagreeing with you on what the 2nd guarantees. I'm disagreeing with you on what that means in this state. What it means in this state is squat.

"judges don't create law, and if they attach arbitrary rulings to the process can and should be challenged and absent extenuating circumstances as I mentioned, will lose."

This has already been proven false by a legal decision I posted in this thread. A guy was denied because he was VAGUE in his answers, that's it, he challenged it and he LOST.

What's right and what's wrong are not the issues here, the issue here is what is REAL and what is fantasy. The reality is that your permit MAY be issued at the judge's discretion. That's it! That's all! All of the work you put into applying only grants you the privilege of having a judge ask you some questions and make a decision. There are no guarantees. Nothing you can do assures you will get a permit at all much less an unrestricted one.

This is the reality of NYS. I may not agree with it but that doesn't change it.

Absolutely 100% true whether anyone believes it or not. We are not a SHALL ISSUE state. We are a MAY ISSUE state.

Any MAY ISSUE state that does not follow the letter of the law would make it a SHALL ISSUE state and leaves it up to the discretion of the issuing agent. Therefore if that agent did not get a happy BJ (male or female) the night before, you are not getting an unrestricted permit if you are the unfortunate schlep who's application they are looking at the next day.

 

[BerettaGuy]

Forget about it! Can YOU say, Arbitrary and Capricious! Google it. Many court cases and laws have been thrown onto the trash heap of history if they were deemed Arbitrary and Capricious. NY Pistol Permit Article 400 is Arbitrary and Capricious. It also says the premises permit, or permit to own is "shall issue"

 

[HEX]

Ulster County - Says only "LICENSE TO CARRY PISTOL IS HEREBY GRANTED"

Unfortunately this is often not the case anymore in Ulster County. It's only in fairly recent years (last 5 or so maybe ?) that Ulster judges started adding restrictions regularly , but I hear it happens more often than not nowadays. A family member of mine got her Ulster permit, I believe it was last year, and does have "Range/Target Only" restrictions listed.

Actually, that same family member mentioned that when she picked up her permit there were others doing the same and some woman in the office was quite frustrated that her own relative had received a permit with no restrictions only days earlier. It seems to be luck of the draw with what judge you get, with no standard procedure, which is completely silly and unfair.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Has anyone got their permit? I live in NYC. I submitted my application three months ago, and I just got the letter to schedule an interview.

NYC is a different animal than NYS. The procedure is totally different and the license is as well.

 

[CountyCorrectionOfficer]

NYC is a different animal than NYS. The procedure is totally different and the license is as well.

NYC carry PLs are far and few. Restricted business carry PLs are quite difficult to obtain and require extensive documentation of need. NYC full carry is next to impossible unless you're part of the "rich & famous" well-connected crowd or a retired NYC or state LEO. Premise pistol licenses are the most common issued and those handguns have to be in a locked container when transported and NOT on your person. NYC licensing fees are $340 for initial application and for renewal every three years.

 

[CountyCorrectionOfficer]

Unfortunately this is often not the case anymore in Ulster County. It's only in fairly recent years (last 5 or so maybe ?) that Ulster judges started adding restrictions regularly , but I hear it happens more often than not nowadays. A family member of mine got her Ulster permit, I believe it was last year, and does have "Range/Target Only" restrictions listed.

Actually, that same family member mentioned that when she picked up her permit there were others doing the same and some woman in the office was quite frustrated that her own relative had received a permit with no restrictions only days earlier. It seems to be luck of the draw with what judge you get, with no standard procedure, which is completely silly and unfair.

County level Judges Williams and Mizel are most likely to issue full carry PLs to private citizens the first time out. The other licensing officials require personal interviews and rarely issue full carry pistols licenses to private citizens initially. Many of the judges require proof of live fire training before any upgrade to unrestricted full carry.

 

[4excal]

Chiming in from Putnam County. Mine says: RESTRICTIONS: FULL CARRY

Yup to that. Same here. If I recall..when I moved to Ulster 10 years ago I transferred my Permit to that county, I could have sworn Ulster permit said "Unrestricted" but I may wrong and forgot. I also transferred to Dutchess when I moved there, possibly in that one said it? I just kinda remember one these damn counties said it. Eitherway, with all of chiming in about the terminology..it's proof enough the words are used in multiple Counties

 

[CountyCorrectionOfficer]

Yup to that. Same here. If I recall..when I moved to Ulster 10 years ago I transferred my Permit to that county, I could have sworn Ulster permit said "Unrestricted" but I may wrong and forgot. I also transferred to Dutchess when I moved there, possibly in that one said it? I just kinda remember one these damn countries said it. Eitherway, with all of chiming in about the terminology..it's proof enough the words are used in multiple Counties

Ulster makes no mention of "unrestricted'" on the license cards. But does have listed "Restrictions: Target,fishing,hunting,camping".

 

[livingston]

NYC is a different animal than NYS. The procedure is totally different and the license is as well.

And one the left would love to use as a blueprint for the rest of the state as well

 

[CountyCorrectionOfficer]

Unfortunately this is often not the case anymore in Ulster County. It's only in fairly recent years (last 5 or so maybe ?) that Ulster judges started adding restrictions regularly , but I hear it happens more often than not nowadays. A family member of mine got her Ulster permit, I believe it was last year, and does have "Range/Target Only" restrictions listed.

Actually, that same family member mentioned that when she picked up her permit there were others doing the same and some woman in the office was quite frustrated that her own relative had received a permit with no restrictions only days earlier. It seems to be luck of the draw with what judge you get, with no standard procedure, which is completely silly and unfair.

Hex, South of us in Orange County, the PL applicants go thru many hoops to obtain a PL. The OCSO police detectives interview them. They need to submit documents (copies of) and have to take a gun safety class with instructors who are on the OCSO list.

 

[ProGunEsq.]

I just came across this thread and I wanted to note something (so that folks don't get into trouble out there). It's true that the Penal Law doesn't address restrictions placed on carry permits by licensing officers (judges). However, courts have consistently ruled that NYS licensing officers can place restrictions on carry permits. Caselaw (or court made law) is the law too and must be read in conjunction with statutory law (i.e. the Penal Law). On point in Westchester Co., the Second Circuit Court of Appeals in Kochalsky v. Co. of Westchester, 701 F.3d 81, 86 (2d. Cir. 2012), specifically held that a NYS licensing officer has the right to place restrictions on carry permits. Many other courts have said the same. So whether we like it or not, restrictions by licensing officers are lawful. Recently, this authority by licensing officers was affirmed in NYS Rifle & Pistol Assoc., Inc. v. City of New York, which was decided on 2/23/2018 by the Second Circuit. I do agree with the original post that failure to abide by the restriction doesn't mean you violate the Penal Law, what it does mean is that you may have your permit revoked/suspended, etc.. However, we can't take the position that it doesn't "carry the force of law" because that isn't the case. It's, in fact, lawful.

 

[Doc8404]

We all know that. Or at least most of us.

 

[cgrutt]

Semantics. You can't be charged with any crime. You can however lose your permit.

 

[BDinPutnam]

I think overlooked here, irrespective of carry or not carry- one of the one and only things that is consistent across NY state is that you need a permit to even PURCHASE a pistol (or even handle one).

 

[cgrutt]

I think overlooked here, irrespective of carry or not carry- one of the one and only things that is consistent across NY state is that you need a permit to even PURCHASE a pistol (or even handle one).

Blackpowder (as long as you don't buy the blackpowder) LOL

 

[ProGunEsq.]

Thanks Doc8404, but i can read and it didn't appear to be the case based on the thread, which is why I posted. i honestly don't know why i try to educate gun owners since you're all so damn smart. You all keep talking about restrictions being arbitrary, administrative, judge-made and not having the force of law, and blah blah blah. Go ahead and test that and see how far it gets you.

PS Also, keep citing the Second Amendment but it ain't gonna get you anywhere in Westchester Co. my friends.

Best of luck!

 

[Doc8404]

Sounds more like another know it all lawyer. Appreciate the input.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Thanks Doc8404, but i can read and it didn't appear to be the case based on the thread, which is why I posted. i honestly don't know why i try to educate gun owners since you're all so damn smart. You all keep talking about restrictions being arbitrary, administrative, judge-made and not having the force of law, and blah blah blah. Go ahead and test that and see how far it gets you.

PS Also, keep citing the Second Amendment but it ain't gonna get you anywhere in Westchester Co. my friends.

Best of luck!

You can only be charged via the Penal Law. In this case. It's Penal Law 265 and 400 in regards to firearms and licensing. So if caught carrying under restrictions, as per Penal Law 400, you committed no crime. Penal law 400 does however give the issuing judge the power to revoke your license at any time.

You should read up on the actual laws before you post opinion as fact.

 

[Doc8404]

i honestly don't know why i try to educate gun owners since you're all so damn smart.
PS Also, keep citing the Second Amendment but it ain't gonna get you anywhere in Westchester Co. my friends.

Best of luck!

You really made your case as a “pro gun” attorney.

 

[togmaster]

Attorneys are part of the political system. Buyer beware.

 

[Jem45472]

You really made your case as a “pro gun” attorney.

If needed, by the sounds of it, I would much rather have the mia divorce lawyer.

 

[Twogunwilly]

Don't use self defense to get an unrestricted permit. You can protect $ & property, do a little creative writing why you are vulnerable transporting either or both and stress the fact you are generally alone in remote places.

 

[Calculon]

Thanks Doc8404, but i can read and it didn't appear to be the case based on the thread, which is why I posted. i honestly don't know why i try to educate gun owners since you're all so damn smart. You all keep talking about restrictions being arbitrary, administrative, judge-made and not having the force of law, and blah blah blah. Go ahead and test that and see how far it gets you.

PS Also, keep citing the Second Amendment but it ain't gonna get you anywhere in Westchester Co. my friends.

Best of luck!

Nice snark in your 2nd post.

 

[kev74]

Come on fellas. We're on the same side here!

 

[Karpteach]

Thanks Doc8404, but i can read and it didn't appear to be the case based on the thread, which is why I posted. i honestly don't know why i try to educate gun owners since you're all so damn smart. You all keep talking about restrictions being arbitrary, administrative, judge-made and not having the force of law, and blah blah blah. Go ahead and test that and see how far it gets you.

PS Also, keep citing the Second Amendment but it ain't gonna get you anywhere in Westchester Co. my friends.

Best of luck!

Or Nassau, Suffolk, NYC and every other shithole in this state!

 

[nortatoga]

A Judge suspending or revoking a pistol license may not be a criminal charge, But it is still force of law is it not? Just as a Judge issuing a fine is force of law!

Nothing @ProGunEsq. posted was not true! If so point it out and have a discussion about it. ( He said nothing about anyone being charged )

 

[dsdmmat]

A Judge suspending or revoking a pistol license may not be a criminal charge, But it is still force of law is it not? Just as a Judge issuing a fine is force of law!

Nothing @ProGunEsq. posted was not true! If so point it out and have a discussion about it. ( He said nothing about anyone being charged )

Very true and the real danger associated with carrying out of restrictions is the SAFE acts provision for all long guns to be removed if your pistol license is revoked. Tread carefully people.

 

[Criticalt]

A Judge suspending or revoking a pistol license may not be a criminal charge, But it is still force of law is it not? Just as a Judge issuing a fine is force of law!

Nothing @ProGunEsq. posted was not true! If so point it out and have a discussion about it. ( He said nothing about anyone being charged )

This is why its goofy when people here say its just fine to carry outside of your restrictions because its not illegal to do so.
Great, you wont be charged with a crime, but you will lose your permit.
Then you can hire a lawyer and go to court, where you will lose.
This is also why @Doc8404 said what he said, MOST of us understand this.
Just because restrictions arent written in the law, doesnt mean they are not lawful.
Case law is used all the time and usually passes muster.
On a side note, Chautauqua Co permit is always unrestricted and says
"License to carry pistol is hereby granted to:"

 

[Doc8404]

Very true and the real danger associated with carrying out of restrictions is the SAFE acts provision for all long guns to be removed if your pistol license is revoked. Tread carefully people.

Agreed.