Cops Arresting People and Instructors for Live Fire Training .. Suffolk County

[Grimscale]

but if no one has actually been arrested yet couldn't that result in a lack of standing ruling?

I believe there was already a S.C. ruling stating that you do not have to have suffered arrest to have standing when Rights are involved.
one of the things that pisses me off when local judges throw out opposition to NY's egregious and unconstitutional "laws" against gun ownership.

As long as the "law" is on the books and targets a constitutionally protected Right, you have standing to sue.

 

[Saltwater60]

Good. I hope everyone arrested becomes rich and literally bankrupts the city and or the state.

 

[Vinson57]

Perfect example for the Supreme Court remedy of ordering Federal Control and Supervision of the PP offices in all counties so these gestapo actors removed from control while we go to shall issue. They will do so for ignoring Bruen and enacting CCIA in defiance of the court. Watch for it, its coming.

 

[VietnamEraVet]

Perfect example for the Supreme Court remedy of ordering Federal Control and Supervision of the PP offices in all counties so these gestapo actors removed from control while we go to shall issue. They will do so for ignoring Bruen and enacting CCIA in defiance of the court. Watch for it, its coming.

Interesting thought as to what is coming. What do you base it on?

 

[Far king]

Every officer involved should be *prosecuted* for kidnapping, false imprisonment, etc...

There's "honest mistake" and then there's "I DGAF what the law says I'm locking him up anyway".

How about horse whipping as well

 

[John Stark]

You realize you're wrong on that, don't you ? You MUST recertify your NYS pistol permit online. Mail- in forms are NOT ACCEPTED for recertifications. I'm sure there are dozens of other government interactions that must be done electronically. Crossing the US/Canada border in a commercial vehicle for instance - the PARS and PAPS numbers must be filed electronically.

This is not factually true, at least in terms of commercial vehicles. There are times when actual paper can be used in trucking in a completely lawful manner. If an electronic system is not working, for example, log books and so on can, and MUST, by law, be filled in and carried by a commercial driver. Further, that applies to the point that a commercial driver MUST at leasy "recreate" his log, on paper using a "proper" paper logbook, for the day (or days) that his electronic logging device mechanically failed. Also, its my opinion that commercial trucking companies, and especially independent truckers, can use paper in lieu of an electronic system, if they opt for that as a company, or as self-employed, or as a sole proprietorship, etc. I say that is my opinion because I have not done so myself, but I do know of companies that allow their owner ops to us paper logbooks rather than electronic logging, and I do know owner operators who refuse to switch to electronic logs and have zero problems with the mandatory compliance as long as they turn in their paperwork as necessary and in a timely manner. Crossing into Canada is certainly its own animal given that is an international border, but my reading of US law pertaining to commercial vehicles, and what I see happening with various companies, has been that there are still ways to skirt electronic logging in most commercial vehicle situations.

As an aside, I can tell you that the NY has tried to force me to use digital methods for filing certain things not related to my commercial driving, but they cannot force you to do so and that there is a way to use paper documentation for a lot of things even if some NY bureaucrat doesn't want to tell you that. Its actually kind of fun to make them jump through paper hoops!

Further, I would point out that there are many things that the State does, and MUST, accept in paper form. Voting is the obvious example, but there are many, many others, including obtaining State IDs and Driver's Licenses, vehicle registrations, and much much more which CANNOT be obtained without filling out specific paper forms. Equal Protection at some point kicks in, and while it may well be that there is no way to recert a pistol permit, that may be actionable in court based on an unequal treatment before the law.

Its possible that my read on some of this is wrong, but I do have 30 years with a commercial license. Also, I have gone through the training on this recently, and have renewed my CDL, my DOT Med Card, and both my HAZMAT/Tanker endorsement and the 5 year Fed background check for the HAZMAT/Tanker endorsement, in the last year or so. Some I did for electronically for convenience, but I could have submitted all of that in paper form in person or by mail.

 

[John Stark]

Has anyone actually been arrested? Sounds kind of like the threat of a catch-22 as a scare tactic that people are reacting to pre-emptively in a "what if" way, but if no one has actually been arrested yet couldn't that result in a lack of standing ruling?

It cannot be both legal to do something and illegal at the same time, as you obviously understand with your "catch 22" comment.

If NYS said that you cannot get a Drivers License without a Road Test, and that you cannot take a Road Test unless you first obtain a Drivers Permit, and that you can't get a Drivers Permit without first engaging in "Live Driver Training, with the threat of arrest for "driving without a License" hanging over your head for attempting to get the "training" without the "permit," NY would obviously be failing in terms of Due Process and Equal Protection. I write that analogy simply to point out that I believe we're on the same page with how stupid this is.

However, the question of standing has gotten so stupid that the courts really need to be reigned in on that topic. The whole notion of standing in this country in terms of court proceedings his utterly hackneyed, and frankly tyrannical. Standing now often means, "we have money and lawyers" or "we are a favored class, hear us on that basis."

That being said, if its lawful to obtain a permit for whatever, it can't be both legal and illegal, particularly under the threat of a very serious felony criminal arrest, to jump through the hoops necessary to get the license.

Blacks during segregation had the Right to vote, but beyond the poll taxes and other requirements they were held to that other citizens were not held to, there was often a very real risk of arrest to exercise that Right, and even the very real possibility that you would be attacked and even murdered for voting or organizing voter registrations drives or get out the vote efforts.

The very act of the government requiring a permit to exercise a fundamental Right is prima facie tyrannical and unconstitutional. The threat of felony arrest for seeking the "necessary" permit, while those seeking the permit are threatened with arrest, reveals that the whole licensing scheme, no matter the fundamental Right in question, is patently absurd and wicked.

And thus, a true system of Justice, would easily and clearly afford any given litigant "standing" in such a foolish and retarded situation, regardless of whether the threat of arrest was real, or merely "imminent."

 

[RedBreast21]

Ask 99% of police officers south of Putnam county NY and not one can cite the licensing requirements or the laws pertaining to possession let alone give you a description of what their counties license looks like. I know this first hand. It's like they don't educate street officers in the law.

 

[Tisto]

This is not factually true, at least in terms of commercial vehicles. There are times when actual paper can be used in trucking in a completely lawful manner. If an electronic system is not working, for example, log books and so on can, and MUST, by law, be filled in and carried by a commercial driver. Further, that applies to the point that a commercial driver MUST at leasy "recreate" his log, on paper using a "proper" paper logbook, for the day (or days) that his electronic logging device mechanically failed. Also, its my opinion that commercial trucking companies, and especially independent truckers, can use paper in lieu of an electronic system, if they opt for that as a company, or as self-employed, or as a sole proprietorship, etc. I say that is my opinion because I have not done so myself, but I do know of companies that allow their owner ops to us paper logbooks rather than electronic logging, and I do know owner operators who refuse to switch to electronic logs and have zero problems with the mandatory compliance as long as they turn in their paperwork as necessary and in a timely manner. Crossing into Canada is certainly its own animal given that is an international border, but my reading of US law pertaining to commercial vehicles, and what I see happening with various companies, has been that there are still ways to skirt electronic logging in most commercial vehicle situations.

As an aside, I can tell you that the NY has tried to force me to use digital methods for filing certain things not related to my commercial driving, but they cannot force you to do so and that there is a way to use paper documentation for a lot of things even if some NY bureaucrat doesn't want to tell you that. Its actually kind of fun to make them jump through paper hoops!

Further, I would point out that there are many things that the State does, and MUST, accept in paper form. Voting is the obvious example, but there are many, many others, including obtaining State IDs and Driver's Licenses, vehicle registrations, and much much more which CANNOT be obtained without filling out specific paper forms. Equal Protection at some point kicks in, and while it may well be that there is no way to recert a pistol permit, that may be actionable in court based on an unequal treatment before the law.

Its possible that my read on some of this is wrong, but I do have 30 years with a commercial license. Also, I have gone through the training on this recently, and have renewed my CDL, my DOT Med Card, and both my HAZMAT/Tanker endorsement and the 5 year Fed background check for the HAZMAT/Tanker endorsement, in the last year or so. Some I did for electronically for convenience, but I could have submitted all of that in paper form in person or by mail.

1: Did I even MENTION log books ? No.

2: Do you even know what PARS and PAPS numbers are ? PARS & PAPS numbers MUST be filed electronically and cleared BEFORE a shipment reaches the border, much less crosses it. I cross the US/Canada border EVERY DAY.

3: while it may be actionable in court, there has been no such challenge, and there is currently NO PAPER METHOD of recertifying your pistol permit. They MUST be done electronically.

 

[Beerman]

This is not factually true, at least in terms of commercial vehicles. There are times when actual paper can be used in trucking in a completely lawful manner. If an electronic system is not working, for example, log books and so on can, and MUST, by law, be filled in and carried by a commercial driver. Further, that applies to the point that a commercial driver MUST at leasy "recreate" his log, on paper using a "proper" paper logbook, for the day (or days) that his electronic logging device mechanically failed. Also, its my opinion that commercial trucking companies, and especially independent truckers, can use paper in lieu of an electronic system, if they opt for that as a company, or as self-employed, or as a sole proprietorship, etc. I say that is my opinion because I have not done so myself, but I do know of companies that allow their owner ops to us paper logbooks rather than electronic logging, and I do know owner operators who refuse to switch to electronic logs and have zero problems with the mandatory compliance as long as they turn in their paperwork as necessary and in a timely manner. Crossing into Canada is certainly its own animal given that is an international border, but my reading of US law pertaining to commercial vehicles, and what I see happening with various companies, has been that there are still ways to skirt electronic logging in most commercial vehicle situations.

As an aside, I can tell you that the NY has tried to force me to use digital methods for filing certain things not related to my commercial driving, but they cannot force you to do so and that there is a way to use paper documentation for a lot of things even if some NY bureaucrat doesn't want to tell you that. Its actually kind of fun to make them jump through paper hoops!

Further, I would point out that there are many things that the State does, and MUST, accept in paper form. Voting is the obvious example, but there are many, many others, including obtaining State IDs and Driver's Licenses, vehicle registrations, and much much more which CANNOT be obtained without filling out specific paper forms. Equal Protection at some point kicks in, and while it may well be that there is no way to recert a pistol permit, that may be actionable in court based on an unequal treatment before the law.

Its possible that my read on some of this is wrong, but I do have 30 years with a commercial license. Also, I have gone through the training on this recently, and have renewed my CDL, my DOT Med Card, and both my HAZMAT/Tanker endorsement and the 5 year Fed background check for the HAZMAT/Tanker endorsement, in the last year or so. Some I did for electronically for convenience, but I could have submitted all of that in paper form in person or by mail.

It is my opinion that your logbook entries indicate that you’re hauling a heavy load of bullshit. It is also my opinion that you have not properly secured your load. Further, I would point out that this I not the only time that you have hauled this particular cargo. Have a nice day!

 

[Cavalry]

Could she stand up for a moment?

One of my favorite gun content boob tubers. Like, subscribe, hit that notification bell.

I watch her every now and then. This one from a couple months ago was a good one.

 

[fresch]

Anyone have one of her jumping rope?

 

[Willyone]

She's a hoot...er

 

[Jchrisls]

Yes.

But, to get the pre-license license, you must first file a license application.... which we will not provide without the appropriate qualifications... which you cannot get without a license.

Soon to a county clerk near you...

Have you thought of obtaining a pre license license? That requires 16 hours of pre license training and 3 hours of out loud thought expression. Please schedule an appointment for each. The cost is 128 dollars.


Not valid in New York City.

 

[John Stark]

1: Did I even MENTION log books ? No.

2: Do you even know what PARS and PAPS numbers are ? PARS & PAPS numbers MUST be filed electronically and cleared BEFORE a shipment reaches the border, much less crosses it. I cross the US/Canada border EVERY DAY.

3: while it may be actionable in court, there has been no such challenge, and there is currently NO PAPER METHOD of recertifying your pistol permit. They MUST be done electronically.

The point that I was making is that there are many ways to skirt and even neuter NY requirements to file documentation electronically. That is a fact. That there are solid legal grounds to challenge it, whether through our representatives without resorting to lawyers and courts, or through legal challenge, is also factual. I've used my local and state representatives to bring NY government officials to heel many times without resorting to an attorney or the court system. I was able to do that because I was addressing the proper level of government and law.

You mentioned PARS and PAPS as if that has any relevance at all with regards to pistol permits. It does not. However, I did talk about things pertaining to commercial trucking and the necessary paperwork (Digital or not) that goes along with that industry since that is the rubric upon which you were basing your point about pistol licensing and submitting documentation. There are many work arounds to NY State laws with regards to trucking paperwork, just as there is the Federal paperwork, outside of some international trade agreement that you want to drag into the discussion for some reason.

And that goes for a lot of other things that NY or the counties insist can only be submitted digitally.

Pistol permits are at a different level of law (State obviously), while you're talking about something (commercial trucks crossing an international border) that is not pertinent to the discussion. PAPS and PARS are part of NAFTA, and international trade agreements mean fuck all with regards to NY pistol permits and the laws that pertain to them. An international trade agreement has no bearing on the topic at hand whatsoever.

I stand by my statements about how actual paperwork can be pushed through on many things in this shithole state, even though NY often slyly insists that there are no other options beyond digital compliance.

Just because someone hasn't challenged, whether through the courts or through their representatives, doesn't mean anything either.

I laid out a legal basis and rationale on how the digital recert of a pistol permit could be worked around or gone after as a matter of state law, and your challenge to that is whether or not I've ever heard of NAFTA after having a commercial license for 30 years?

Get the fuck outta here!

 

[Rocpo]

Ask 99% of police officers south of Putnam county NY and not one can cite the licensing requirements or the laws pertaining to possession let alone give you a description of what their counties license looks like. I know this first hand. It's like they don't educate street officers in the law.

So you've questioned every single PO in those counties? I highly doubt it.

 

[RedBreast21]

So you've questioned every single PO in those counties? I highly doubt it.

Very comfortable with my assessment. Of the 22 officers and friends that retired from the NYPD and local departments, none knew about the process, the actual text of the law, restrictions or what individual county permits even look like as over the years they were all very different. I did say south of Putnam county in my response.
NYC has about 38k police officers. So 1% would be 380. Yep I'm good with that guess.

I also have personal experience in my 35 years of having the rare, or shall I say extremely rare "FULL CARRY" permit from paper to a cardboard card to plastic, here in Westchester. Local PD officers only thought retired officers could get it.

 

[repete]

Soon to a county clerk near you...

Have you thought of obtaining a pre license license? That requires 16 hours of pre license training and 3 hours of out loud thought expression. Please schedule an appointment for each. The cost is 128 dollars.


Not valid in New York City.

Check or charge, I'm sorry but we don't accept cash at this office.
Say what? You're a gvmt office!
Yes sir, but we still don't accept cash.
Look right here, it says "This note is legal tender for all debts public and private'
Yeah, so? We still don't accept cash. SUCURITY!
GRRRRR!

 

[holdover]

The hypocrisy and Irony that men with guns would come and arrest people for.......training with guns is some weapons grade bullshit.