EPA makes new EV/pollution rules for passenger vehicles

[Saltwater60]

Consumers now no longer just need an EPA miles-per-gallon (mpg) rating for vehicles. Consumers need to be shown a dollars-per-mile (dpg) for new vehicles.

The DPG should be updated on the fly, daily, for all cars on a dealer's lot based on average price per kilowatt hour and average price for a gallon of 87 octane fuel in a 100 mile radius. This can be displayed with a simple reusable tablet along with a standard window sticker.

Never happen because they want you to buy an EV.

 

[Phazer]

Never happen because they want you to buy an EV.

Exactly.

 

[stokes]

Never happen because they want you to buy an EV.

CCP gotta make the $$$$ so they can give the big guy his 10%

 

[spat]

I disagree. Yes the grid is there but chargers arent and the grid is not up to par and needs to be entirely upgraded for this. Also hydrogen can be handled in much the same manner as gasoline or propane. Hydrogen fills faster than a charge and lasts much longer than the current batteries do. You’ll need less filling stations than chargers. Also many chargers are constantly broken at a rate of 40-50% at times.

You need to build an entire new nationwide pipeline network from scratch for hydrogen.

Pipelines are much more complicated than electrical lines.

Much of the existing electrical infrastructure can be re-used.

The chargers are the easy part. You could easily deploy 50,000 new ones a year if you could get power for them.

 

[Saltwater60]

You need to build an entire new nationwide pipeline network from scratch for hydrogen.

Pipelines are much more complicated than electrical lines.

Much of the existing electrical infrastructure can be re-used.

The chargers are the easy part. You could easily deploy 50,000 new ones a year if you could get power for them.

You don’t need to make a new pipeline. They are coming up with ways now to make hydrogen fuel with wind and solar electricity. There could be a few generation stations in strategic areas and be trucked in. There’s a lot of new tech around hydrogen and it’s rather exciting IMO. I like the hydrogen route versus EV by a lot.

How a Hydrogen Filling Station Works

With more stations coming online every year and more hydrogen cars on the road, it’s worth taking a look at how hydrogen gets into a fuel-cell vehicle and out on the road.

www.energy.gov

 

[spat]

You don’t need to make a new pipeline. They are coming up with ways now to make hydrogen fuel with wind and solar electricity. There could be a few generation stations in strategic areas and be trucked in. There’s a lot of new tech around hydrogen and it’s rather exciting IMO. I like the hydrogen route versus EV by a lot.

How a Hydrogen Filling Station Works

With more stations coming online every year and more hydrogen cars on the road, it’s worth taking a look at how hydrogen gets into a fuel-cell vehicle and out on the road.

www.energy.gov

You really need to do the math on the scale you're talking about.

Using wind and solar electricity to make hydrogen means you have to build out the electrical grid bigger than EVs would demand before you can even start distributing your hydrogen. So now you're taking about fully upgrading the electrical grid, *then* building a hydrogen distribution network on top of that ?

If you were starting from scratch, hydrogen has a lot going for it. We are not starting from scratch.

 

[Saltwater60]

You really need to do the math on the scale you're talking about.

Using wind and solar electricity to make hydrogen means you have to build out the electrical grid bigger than EVs would demand before you can even start distributing your hydrogen. So now you're taking about fully upgrading the electrical grid, *then* building a hydrogen distribution network on top of that ?

If you were starting from scratch, hydrogen has a lot going for it. We are not starting from scratch.

I get that making all of it with wind and solar is not practical I’m simply saying they can do it and it meets the lefts green standard. They also now have found a few sources in the ground that are around 85% hydrogen gas coming out. They could locate a few strategic areas and compress it to be shipped around the USA as we do with gasoline now.

I just read an article last night that there are 60 to 80 million transformers in the USA and to upgrade the grid all of them would need to be replaced. Right now we make and replace around 1 million annually. That math is pretty simple. I don’t think the grid is anywhere near ready for the transition and you can’t truck electricity around feasibly. Also the demand for charging will be high at night when solar is t producing and people are charging.
I know there varying accounts and many say infrastructure on hydrogen is the hang up but I’m just not sure I believe it. Hydrogen has a lot more flexibility than electricity does in how it can be delivered. There’s a company now making hydrogen storage tanks that operate like propane tanks, great idea and makes a lot of sense. They can be used as main power, a range extender, or to make it so hydrogen can be trucked around without huge pipelines. Of course there are benefits and trade offs. You’re smart and I respect your opinion but there have been plenty of advancement in hydrogen lately and it looks promising to me. The government and car manufacturers see this too. Many oil and gas companies are jumping on the hydrogen bandwagon as well. I guess in 10 years we will see.

 

[spat]

I get that making all of it with wind and solar is not practical I’m simply saying they can do it and it meets the lefts green standard. They also now have found a few sources in the ground that are around 85% hydrogen gas coming out. They could locate a few strategic areas and compress it to be shipped around the USA as we do with gasoline now.

I just read an article last night that there are 60 to 80 million transformers in the USA and to upgrade the grid all of them would need to be replaced. Right now we make and replace around 1 million annually. That math is pretty simple. I don’t think the grid is anywhere near ready for the transition and you can’t truck electricity around feasibly. Also the demand for charging will be high at night when solar is t producing and people are charging.
I know there varying accounts and many say infrastructure on hydrogen is the hang up but I’m just not sure I believe it. Hydrogen has a lot more flexibility than electricity does in how it can be delivered. There’s a company now making hydrogen storage tanks that operate like propane tanks, great idea and makes a lot of sense. They can be used as main power, a range extender, or to make it so hydrogen can be trucked around without huge pipelines. Of course there are benefits and trade offs. You’re smart and I respect your opinion but there have been plenty of advancement in hydrogen lately and it looks promising to me. The government and car manufacturers see this too. Many oil and gas companies are jumping on the hydrogen bandwagon as well. I guess in 10 years we will see.

If you think upgrading the grid is hard, you have no idea what building a hydrogen pipeline infrastructure would be like.

Not *every* transformer would need to be upgraded.

In fact, the big charging stations would probably take a medium voltage power directly, the vast majority of transformers are to drop voltage down to low voltage for consumer use.

That 15kv to 240v transformer on the pole outside your house is unnecessary for a supercharger that takes 15kv itself.

Also, it's far cheaper and easier to run a transmission line along an existing right of way, compared to building a new pipeline.

Have you *seen* what it takes to build a new pipeline in 2024 America ? By the time you're done proving it won't bother some spotted horny toad you've blown 3/4 of your budget before the first pipe is installed.

Also, hydrogen is tricky stuff. You can't just use the same compressors, tanks, etc.. that you do for natural gas and propane.

Hydrogen makes most steels it is in contact with brittle, and it slowly leaks right through the wall of the tank.

No, as much as upgrading the grid is a herculean task, building out a hydrogen infrastructure would be 100x harder.

 

[SonOfSun]

The problem is they don't want to let the market decide. Cars are better than horses. Cars naturally were conquering transport in America when they were still a fledgling but transformative industry. The interstate project helped for sure, but it was still inevitable without that. If EVs are so great you won't need to subsidize them. People will want them because they are better... and if not they won't want them because they aren't.

 

[Saltwater60]

The problem is they don't want to let the market decide. Cars are better than horses. Cars naturally were conquering transport in America when they were still a fledgling but transformative industry. The interstate project helped for sure, but it was still inevitable without that. If EVs are so great you won't need to subsidize them. People will want them because they are better... and if not they won't want them because they aren't.

Considering people are massively moving away from EV’s I’d say the market already decided. Hybrid sales have skyrocketed. Yea EV sales have increased ever so slightly year over year but they are only around 1.2 million per year but are declining. I would suspect in a few years they will go completely flat if not backslide a bit unless there are advancements.
The powers that be keep saying price is a big barrier but I don’t think it is. I think it’s the chargers and the time it takes to charge. The lack of range is huge as well IMO. I less those three things are corrected they will never be disrupted in high demand.

 

[ManualF150]

Considering people are massively moving away from EV’s I’d say the market already decided. Hybrid sales have skyrocketed. Yea EV sales have increased ever so slightly year over year but they are only around 1.2 million per year but are declining. I would suspect in a few years they will go completely flat if not backslide a bit unless there are advancements.
The powers that be keep saying price is a big barrier but I don’t think it is. I think it’s the chargers and the time it takes to charge. The lack of range is huge as well IMO. I less those three things are corrected they will never be disrupted in high demand.

If EV was going to be the landscape in the near future, manufacturers would have started making less attractive ICE engine options in vehicles.

FCA/Stellantis bumped the Hurricane 3.0 I6 into the RAM 1500. Puts out some impressive numbers. Ford did some more tuning with their 3.5 V6 EcoBoost. Along with GM pushing the lead with their mini-Duramax 3.0 I6 diesel for fuel economy. All for 2024 and 2025.

I also read an article summarizing that ICE is not going anywhere because of the demand. Yes maybe some hybrid, but even that, lots of folks are hesitant about the excess baggage and complexity of the added wiring, batteries, and other modules that control all of that.

My prediction is that the long term future is going to be around 60% regular ICE-only vehicles, 35% hybrid, and 5% EV. Long term, being 20 years. Right now vehicles currently registered on the road for 2024 it is about this (from about as much Googling and averaging as I could quickly do): 89% ICE only, 10% Hybrid, and 1% EV.

I had the chance to drive a 2024 F150 EcoBoost 3.5l supercrew, short bed 4x4 truck this past week. Wasn't impressed with the fuel economy (16 mpg), but the power was insane for a 7,000 lb pickup truck.

Really wish more biodiesel or renewable diesel would be pushed for US production too.

 

[SonOfSun]

Considering people are massively moving away from EV’s I’d say the market already decided. Hybrid sales have skyrocketed. Yea EV sales have increased ever so slightly year over year but they are only around 1.2 million per year but are declining. I would suspect in a few years they will go completely flat if not backslide a bit unless there are advancements.
The powers that be keep saying price is a big barrier but I don’t think it is. I think it’s the chargers and the time it takes to charge. The lack of range is huge as well IMO. I less those three things are corrected they will never be disrupted in high demand.

I think price is a barrier, and so are the other things you mentioned as well. Sure, they are close to ICE costs... but that's only with the $7500 tax credit. Take thay away and they aren't even price competitive, let alone all the other things you mentioned. Think of it this way... Imagine if ICE vehicles had a $7500 credit too, which would be truly equal footing for comparison, that sort of puts it in perspective how much cheaper ICE vehicles actually are.

If the government needs to subsidize EVs $7500 each to make them price competitive, then they aren't actually price competitive.

I don't like the government tipping the competative scale via subsidy like its doing with EVs.

 

[ManualF150]

I think price is a barrier, and so are the other things you mentioned as well. Sure, they are close to ICE costs... but that's only with the $7500 tax credit. Take thay away and they aren't even price competitive, let alone all the other things you mentioned. Think of it this way... Imagine if ICE vehicles had a $7500 credit too, which would be truly equal footing for comparison, that sort of puts it in perspective how much cheaper ICE vehicles actually are.

If the government needs to subsidize EVs $7500 each to make them price competitive, then they aren't actually price competitive.

I don't like the government tipping the competative scale via subsidy like its doing with EVs.

My problem with the EV tax credit is that it's not solving anything. More so when your local (state/county) can tack on EV taxes for example. We all know that they'll just keep jacking that fee up the wazoo.

On top of that, I know of a few EV owners that are dumping their EVs once they are done with the lease or the warranty goes out. Just because it was a fad and now it's a hassle.

 

[Saltwater60]

I think price is a barrier, and so are the other things you mentioned as well. Sure, they are close to ICE costs... but that's only with the $7500 tax credit. Take thay away and they aren't even price competitive, let alone all the other things you mentioned. Think of it this way... Imagine if ICE vehicles had a $7500 credit too, which would be truly equal footing for comparison, that sort of puts it in perspective how much cheaper ICE vehicles actually are.

If the government needs to subsidize EVs $7500 each to make them price competitive, then they aren't actually price competitive.

I don't like the government tipping the competative scale via subsidy like its doing with EVs.

Sure price is part of it but you could make an EV for $20,000 and if it doesn’t work in the practical day to day no o e will buy it. I think the other practical matters are more important but that’s just me.

 

[Willyone]

I think price is a barrier, and so are the other things you mentioned as well. Sure, they are close to ICE costs... but that's only with the $7500 tax credit. Take thay away and they aren't even price competitive, let alone all the other things you mentioned. Think of it this way... Imagine if ICE vehicles had a $7500 credit too, which would be truly equal footing for comparison, that sort of puts it in perspective how much cheaper ICE vehicles actually are.

If the government needs to subsidize EVs $7500 each to make them price competitive, then they aren't actually price competitive.

I don't like the government tipping the competative scale via subsidy like its doing with EVs.

Me thinks it's the TAX PAYER tipping the scale. Fuck that shit.... pay for your own shit, assholes.
Sounds (reads) like some EVs have ass kicking power so probably fun to drive. But overall they're earth dirty to manufacture and charge. Overall with EVs there are more cons than there are pros, just my opinion of course.

 

[ManualF150]

Another take on it from my perspective, is that we can make eco-friendly gas/diesel cars. Just make them smaller with sensible engine sizes.

We had a 1988 Ford Escort 2.0l diesel 4 speed stick that got 65 mpg.

Wasn't going to win any races, but man did that thing sip fuel.

Been tempted to see if I can't find one and refurb it for summertime daily driving.

 

[Saltwater60]

Another take on it from my perspective, is that we can make eco-friendly gas/diesel cars. Just make them smaller with sensible engine sizes.

We had a 1988 Ford Escort 2.0l diesel 4 speed stick that got 65 mpg.

Wasn't going to win any races, but man did that thing sip fuel.

Been tempted to see if I can't find one and refurb it for summertime daily driving.

Some would accept this and others wouldn’t. I like something with some pep in it. I do t need a race car but we had one of those late 90’s stupid escorts that was like a go cart. You needed to shut of the ac to get on the thruway.

 

[ManualF150]

Some would accept this and others wouldn’t. I like something with some pep in it. I do t need a race car but we had one of those late 90’s stupid escorts that was like a go cart. You needed to shut of the ac to get on the thruway.

Same can be said for everything. To each his/her own.

I got to use a 2024 F150 3.5l EcoBoost SuperCrew 4x4 this past week on a long trip. Got 16 mpg. Has balls, and all it wanted to do was go, go, go. To me, I didn't like having all of that power. It was a waste in my opinion, and the fuel mileage was terrible, especially coming from someone who owns a diesel truck that weighs more and gets 20-22 mpg doing the same activity.

But yes, those were the days. I also remember on really hot days turning off the A/C and turning on the heat and opening the windows to make sure it didn't overheat.

However, I would find a vehicle like that more than acceptable for city driving where high speed driving wasn't really a necessity without complexity.

A lot can be solved by offering sensible choices for people to choose from. Yes, not many people are going to buy a Ford Escort with a small diesel that is suited for city driving. However, same can be said for EVs. However, I would love to see some manufacturer test that theory and see how it sells against an EV.

I really, really want a new small diesel passenger car (like a hatchback or small 4 door sedan), but no one makes one. So I'm forced to buy a huge diesel truck. Only group we can blame that on is the government!

Also, what is easier to produce and to already have a well-situated infrastructure for? A sensible ICE vehicle or a very complex EV? I think we all know the answer to that.

 

[Saltwater60]

Same can be said for everything. To each his/her own.

I got to use a 2024 F150 3.5l EcoBoost SuperCrew 4x4 this past week on a long trip. Got 16 mpg. Has balls, and all it wanted to do was go, go, go. To me, I didn't like having all of that power. It was a waste in my opinion, and the fuel mileage was terrible, especially coming from someone who owns a diesel truck that weighs more and gets 20-22 mpg doing the same activity.

But yes, those were the days. I also remember on really hot days turning off the A/C and turning on the heat and opening the windows to make sure it didn't overheat.

However, I would find a vehicle like that more than acceptable for city driving where high speed driving wasn't really a necessity without complexity.

A lot can be solved by offering sensible choices for people to choose from. Yes, not many people are going to buy a Ford Escort with a small diesel that is suited for city driving. However, same can be said for EVs. However, I would love to see some manufacturer test that theory and see how it sells against an EV.

I really, really want a new small diesel passenger car (like a hatchback or small 4 door sedan), but no one makes one. So I'm forced to buy a huge diesel truck. Only group we can blame that on is the government!

Also, what is easier to produce and to already have a well-situated infrastructure for? A sensible ICE vehicle or a very complex EV? I think we all know the answer to that.

My Acura had a recall so they loaned me a brand new 6 cylinder TSX and that things had balls. I loved it and it was more than a few years ago and I still remember it. I just told my wife last week that we should get one coming up here because she wants something a little quicker than her Subaru.
I do get what you’re saying though. I personally don’t think the turbo charged engines do much of anything for gas mileage. They say they do but I think it’s all in how you drive them and the engines are smaller so it makes them work harder to get from A to Z especially on city trips.
The 4 cylinder Silverado reportedly get 18 city and 21 on the thruway. I have a v-8 Silverado and I get less in the city but more on the thruway. We all know these epa numbers do not get realized so I would say my 14.7 mpg in the city and 23-4 on the thruway.