Finally got to fondle a M&P 2.0 compact

[71velle]

Edwardteach72 Thank you for the like! All ball busting and difference of opinions aside I take that that as appreciation for sharing my experiences.

I dont feel that I am any better than anyone because I have had the opportunity to fire may different pistols. I do feel I am more lucky than many, and like to share my experiences in hope it may help others.

 

[MikeyCNY]

Wall-O-Text, but informative. For years one of my "wish list" guns has been a SIG in .357 because of what the US Secret Service uses (or used? have they transitioned to 9mm?).. I believe Federal Air Marshals also use that round.

I haven't shot a .357 but I have indeed read about its potent recoil, but if you have a solid steel (old-school SIG) that would be mitigated somewhat.

To say 40 practically no better than 9mm is kinda silly. The big movement back to 9mm is not based on ballistic differences alone. The "big" agencies consider the couple extra rounds of capacity and less recoil major factors and of course cost. So they come to the conclusion that capacity, recoil, and cost dont justify the ballistic advantages. Now capacity means nothing to us thanks to AC. Recoil, the agencies have what less than a 50 % hits in the field mainly due to a lack of training and practice. Cost, when outfitting 100s of officers the ammo cost is more of an issue and 9mm pistols never seam to wear out. 40 and 357 do wear out and fail over time.

40 vs 357 is a whole different animal. On paper the 357 is a ballistic ass kicker but doesnt mean its an advantage in the field. The best advantage of 357 is it could potentially feed better due to its bottle neck design. After that the advantages start to break down. 357 does shoot flatter than 40 no argument there but a non-factor at what may consider pistol distances. 357 is better at barrier penetration no contest by a mile!! But, that leads to some disadvantages. Over penetration which can be a real liability. Also 357 tends to pass through the intending target much more often so is transfers less of its energy to its intended target. Some studies have shown that 40 has a better one shot badguy stop because of this.

Not sure if you have ever fired 357 but the blast is substantial!! Much more than 40. And yes I have fired 9mm, 40, and 357 back to back in the same frame pistols. Many reports conclude 357 is more difficult to shoot and I agree. But it could be more of a "training issue" I have read that in actually the 357 recoil impulse is not worse than the 40 but to be honest I cant confirm. I have not shot enough of both the added blast might cause a "mental trick". I am confident in saying that shooting 9 is not really good training for preparing for 357 or 40. I have shot a good reasonable amount of 40 to say I notably fall off compared to 9. I have back to backed fired my g34 and a g35 a few times and always see a considerable difference in accuracy performance. The owner of the g35 does not have this drop of but he is a far superior shooter.

The reason I recommended the idea of 40 even knowing you are not a fan is the whole training practicality. I know you say a lot of drastic stuff but it seems as you do take your training very seriously. As mentioned shooting 9mm imo is not good training for 357 or 40 but shooting 40 is close enough to 357 to be worth while. Now the cost factor, the $120 for the "extra" barrel does not mean much when factoring in the cost of ammo between the two. After less than 1000 rounds of 40 the barrel would pay for itself. If you actually like to shoot and train your first range trip with a new pistol would likely be 300-400 rounds. Maybe you dont really like to train or your made of money making this a nonissue.

 

[71velle]

Right but 40sw is gross, not to mention if I did go the .357sig route it would end up with a KKM barrel and compensator, which thanks to NY would mean the comp would need to be welded onto the barrel (comps are legal, threads are not, which I'm sure we can agree makes little to no sense, but hey we are safe now right) this would cancel out just a simple barrel swap in the slide

Get me up to speed on the compensator situation. I get the threaded barrel problem but does that mean when welded the barrel cannot be removed from the slide? Are there barrels with with a compensator built in that would be an option?

 

[71velle]

Wall-O-Text, but informative. For years one of my "wish list" guns has been a SIG in .357 because of what the US Secret Service uses (or used? have they transitioned to 9mm?).. I believe Federal Air Marshals also use that round.

I haven't shot a .357 but I have indeed read about its potent recoil, but if you have a solid steel (old-school SIG) that would be mitigated somewhat.

Is it the blast or recoil of the 357 im not sure as I mentioned. I cant give you a good answer at this point. I friend does have a Legion in 357 or 40 with both barrels so I could shoot and report. I might be a week or so. If interested let me know what specifically you would like me to compare and will try to make it happen.

 

[Edwardteach72]

Get me up to speed on the compensator situation. I get the threaded barrel problem but does that mean when welded the barrel cannot be removed from the slide? Are there barrels with with a compensator built in that would be an option?

For a glock yea the comp would be welded to the barrel and thus cant be removed from the slide, which I honestly dont see as much of a problem since you can clean and even lub all the necessary spots with a barrel still in place.

And compensator work better with hotter ammo. So I am thinking the .357sig would be awesome in a Roland Special

 

[71velle]

For a glock yea the comp would be welded to the barrel and thus cant be removed from the slide, which I honestly dont see as much of a problem since you can clean and even lub all the necessary spots with a barrel still in place.

And compensator work better with hotter ammo. So I am thinking the .357sig would be awesome in a Roland Special

I wouldnt be comfortable with the barrel not removable, but thats me. No issue with doing maintenance like you said. I will say to fire a bunch of ammo through the barrel prior to welding. I have seen a few aftermarket barrels that caused feeding issues and needed to be sent back. Would suck it it was welded in already. The only compensated pistol I fired was a factory glock 23 and it did help but not night and day. I would hope that the big clunky thing would do a better job or it would not be worth while.

Is the Roland special the "jazz" it up package? Or is it substantial changes?

 

[Edwardteach72]

I wouldnt be comfortable with the barrel not removable, but thats me. No issue with doing maintenance like you said. I will say to fire a bunch of ammo through the barrel prior to welding. I have seen a few aftermarket barrels that caused feeding issues and needed to be sent back. Would suck it it was welded in already. The only compensated pistol I fired was a factory glock 23 and it did help but not night and day. I would hope that the big clunky thing would do a better job or it would not be worth while.

Is the Roland special the "jazz" it up package? Or is it substantial changes?

A true roland special is as follows
Glock 19 with slide work done by ATEi (RMR cut, rear slide serration improvements, front slide serrations and top serrations)
Trijicon RMR RM06
Ameriglo suppressor sights (blacked out)
KKM match barrel and Kim 4 port compensator
Overwatch TAC trigger
Factory minus connector
Tango Downs Vickers slide release and mag release
Full grip stippling, trigger guard undercut and index points
Finger grove removal (optional)
Raven Freya Magwell
And lastly a Surefire x300 ultra

That's how "Roland" himself designed , and what he felt was the best of the best options of each part (subsequently the compensator was originally added only to keep the x300u clean from powder burn and aesthetically fill in the difference between where the barrel and slide ended on the 19 and the end of the light, the added effect was with stout 9mm loads the compensator allowed for flatter shooting and faster follow up shots, less felt recoil, the added weight of the x300 and the comp help with all that as well)

And now you will see many many "Fauxland specials" with people only adding say the red dot (not just RMRs) and compensators (mostly Texas Black Rifle Company micro comps) or will do all the mods but different combinations from different companies they choose.

(Roland special on a customer supplied blaster is $2,300)

 

[71velle]

That’s a lot of cash for a for a Glock. But not much factory Glock left.

 

[Edwardteach72]

That’s a lot of cash for a for a Glock. But not much factory Glock left.

Completely agree, one the reasons many people dont get the actual one, lot of the work can get done else where for less (granted that does include the RMR and Surefire)

 

[71velle]

The light and optic got to be about $600 and its a $550 pistol so I guess it could add up fast.

 

[Edwardteach72]

The light and optic got to be about $600 and its a $550 pistol so I guess it could add up fast.

RMR is about 480-570 depending on where you go. X300 is about 220-280 depending again on where you go. So low to high you are already at 700-850.

Around $140-150 for the trigger.

Then the big money is the slide work and frame work

 

[Marine Cpl]

Other than shooting with a comp (which to me ends up being a wash and about the same in regards to recoil management with a comped .357 Sig compared to a naked barreled 9mm) and a little better barrier penetration against hard objects like metal, I really don't see the advantage the .357 Sig will give you.

In a hollow point which I'm assuming you'll be using, it'll still penetrate in the 12 to 18 inch window. Any caliber above 9mm will do that. I haven't seen a .357 Sig hollow point penetrate more unless it failed to expand.

About the only real advantage besides the slightly extra hard barrier penetration the Sig will get you which isn't really that much more compared to the 9mm (usually about 1 or 2 sheets of sheet metal more on tests I've seen) is deeper penetration if using a solid non hollow point bullet for woods carry like a hard cast or solid copper.

A 9mm +P+ from Underwood will almost get you there without having to change slides, ejectors, magazines, or anything for that matter.

 

[Edwardteach72]

Other than shooting with a comp (which to me ends up being a wash and about the same in regards to recoil management with a comped .357 Sig compared to a naked barreled 9mm) and a little better barrier penetration against hard objects like metal, I really don't see the advantage the .357 Sig will give you.

In a hollow point which I'm assuming you'll be using, it'll still penetrate in the 12 to 18 inch window. Any caliber above 9mm will do that. I haven't seen a .357 Sig hollow point penetrate more unless it failed to expand.

About the only real advantage besides the slightly extra hard barrier penetration the Sig will get you which isn't really that much more compared to the 9mm (usually about 1 or 2 sheets of sheet metal more on tests I've seen) is deeper penetration if using a solid non hollow point bullet for woods carry like a hard cast or solid copper.

A 9mm +P+ from Underwood will almost get you there without having to change slides, ejectors, magazines, or anything for that matter.

I was wondering when you would be hoping in here on this...

My thinking (because as much as I want to fall into the extreme defender group I am just not sold yet... and still go HST and Speer Gold Dots) but 124grain hst 9mm at 1150fps ir 124 +p at 1208fps vs. 125grain hst .357sig at 1360fps

 

[Marine Cpl]

I was wondering when you would be hoping in here on this...

My thinking (because as much as I want to fall into the extreme defender group I am just not sold yet... and still go HST and Speer Gold Dots) but 124grain hst 9mm at 1150fps ir 124 +p at 1208fps vs. 125grain hst .357sig at 1360fps

Did you see the 65 gr Xtreme Defender? It does 2100 fps out of a 4 inch .357 Sig pistol. That's rifle ballistics right there.

https://underwoodammo.com/product/handgun-ammo/357-sig-65-grain-xtreme-defender/

 

[Edwardteach72]

Did you see the 65 gr Xtreme Defender? It does 2100 fps out of a 4 inch .357 Sig pistol. That's rifle ballistics right there.

https://underwoodammo.com/product/handgun-ammo/357-sig-65-grain-xtreme-defender/

See this right there, this is why I wish the .357sig actually won out more in the caliber wars, (I get 9mm is more all around with subsonic loads, +p, +p+, easier reloading and so on)

With those kind of numbers even things like temporary stretch cavities are almost or even just are starting to play into effect.

And these days (as much as many people want to not see it, or not like it) many gamer gun concepts are making their way over to the carry world, first it was optics and now its compensators which are getting smaller and more effective, and a compensator to a round doing 2100fps and you now feel like yiu are shooting a light 9mm

 

[71velle]

The gamers are really the high end trainers. They collect data on quality of hits and the amount of time it takes. Engaging several targets at various distances while moving and shooting from various positions while reloading.

I believe the originators of the various gamer organizations were the most respected trainers of the day.

 

[Edwardteach72]

The gamers are really the high end trainers. They collect data on quality of hits and the amount of time it takes. Engaging several targets at various distances while moving and shooting from various positions while reloading.

I believe the originators of the various gamer organizations were the most respected trainers of the day.

This is why I never understood why there is so much push back when people take a practical version of what someone is doing with their race guns and translating that to a carry gun (ie red dots on carry guns, now I'm not saying try to EDC a frame mounted red dot like a Hilux Micromax B-dot or other tube red or even a C-More. But something like an RMR or even the new Shield RMS and RMSc, granted I am 100% RMR for battery life and durability)

But you still have a lot of people who will say it's a carry gun and you dont need anything other than a stock gun, which yes you can and should be proficient with a stock gun and irons but why not add any advantages when it comes to your life. If that red dot can give me .002sec faster at bringing shots ON target I'll take it

 

[Marine Cpl]

See this right there, this is why I wish the .357sig actually won out more in the caliber wars, (I get 9mm is more all around with subsonic loads, +p, +p+, easier reloading and so on)

With those kind of numbers even things like temporary stretch cavities are almost or even just are starting to play into effect.

And these days (as much as many people want to not see it, or not like it) many gamer gun concepts are making their way over to the carry world, first it was optics and now its compensators which are getting smaller and more effective, and a compensator to a round doing 2100fps and you now feel like yiu are shooting a light 9mm

From what I've read, the temporary stretch cavity starts tearing at anywhere between 1700 fps up to 2200 fps depending on who writes the report. The FBI says 2000 fps. You get a longer barrel and you'll get more than 2100 fps with the Sig round.

Also, I believe the shape of these copper bullets play a role in making the wound bigger. I saw a video where a guy shot a bear skull that still had skin, brain, eyes, and fur with the 9mm 115 gr +P+ Xtreme Penetrator that goes 1300 fps from a Glock. The hole wasn't the size of the bullet. He was able to stick his thumb in the wound on both the entry and exit. AP2020 Outdoors also shot a hog with the 65 gr Xtreme Defender in 9mm and when he cut it open, the lung area was jellified.

I guess as far as the attachments on a carry gun go, that'll have to depend on the user specifically. Sure all that stuff is better but for me at least and for many at a certain point it becomes uncomfortable and harder to conceal. I have to worry about printing. There are no ifs ands or buts about that. I really have to. I also ruined a lot of pants when I used to carry a 5 inch barrel. It even started wearing into my bucket seats of my car causing me to have to unholster whenever I sat down. I couldn't even imagine putting a compensator, longer barrel, red dot, and a flashlight on my carry gun. To me and many who think like me, the benefits wouldn't outweigh the slight positives of recoil management to carry around all that weight and bulk. Within typical self defense distances, I'm pretty confident in getting center mass shots without needing anything extra.

I think it's easy to fall into traps when chasing numbers on paper that have no effect on real life. Some people chase Sub MOA for a deer gun and pump hundreds of dollars into their gun when their gun is already 1 MOA and their hunting area is 200 yards or less. I'm not saying it's wrong. One can do what one likes with their own money but sometimes these upgrades really don't help in real situations like some think they do. It can't hurt though. If it works, better is better. No problems with that.

 

[Edwardteach72]

From what I've read, the temporary stretch cavity starts tearing at anywhere between 1700 fps up to 2200 fps depending on who writes the report. The FBI says 2000 fps. You get a longer barrel and you'll get more than 2100 fps with the Sig round.

Also, I believe the shape of these copper bullets play a role in making the wound bigger. I saw a video where a guy shot a bear skull that still had skin, brain, eyes, and fur with the 9mm 115 gr +P+ Xtreme Penetrator that goes 1300 fps from a Glock. The hole wasn't the size of the bullet. He was able to stick his thumb in the wound on both the entry and exit. AP2020 Outdoors also shot a hog with the 65 gr Xtreme Defender in 9mm and when he cut it open, the lung area was jellified.

I guess as far as the attachments on a carry gun go, that'll have to depend on the user specifically. Sure all that stuff is better but for me at least and for many at a certain point it becomes uncomfortable and harder to conceal. I have to worry about printing. There are no ifs ands or buts about that. I really have to. I also ruined a lot of pants when I used to carry a 5 inch barrel. It even started wearing into my bucket seats of my car causing me to have to unholster whenever I sat down. I couldn't even imagine putting a compensator, longer barrel, red dot, and a flashlight on my carry gun. To me and many who think like me, the benefits wouldn't outweigh the slight positives of recoil management to carry around all that weight and bulk. Within typical self defense distances, I'm pretty confident in getting center mass shots without needing anything extra.

I think it's easy to fall into traps when chasing numbers on paper that have no effect on real life. Some people chase Sub MOA for a deer gun and pump hundreds of dollars into their gun when their gun is already 1 MOA and their hunting area is 200 yards or less. I'm not saying it's wrong. One can do what one likes with their own money but sometimes these upgrades really don't help in real situations like some think they do. It can't hurt though. If it works, better is better. No problems with that.

so much in this i am all about and or would love to discuss but sadly today was a super long day at work and finally trying to relax but ill get to it

(preview...... im all for red dots, comps, magwells, all the lumens flashlights..... with that being said i actually do understand why people are not for them.. and the only one that i would argue argue would be the red dot, the others are more meh additions)

 

[71velle]

This is why I never understood why there is so much push back when people take a practical version of what someone is doing with their race guns and translating that to a carry gun (ie red dots on carry guns, now I'm not saying try to EDC a frame mounted red dot like a Hilux Micromax B-dot or other tube red or even a C-More. But something like an RMR or even the new Shield RMS and RMSc, granted I am 100% RMR for battery life and durability)

But you still have a lot of people who will say it's a carry gun and you dont need anything other than a stock gun, which yes you can and should be proficient with a stock gun and irons but why not add any advantages when it comes to your life. If that red dot can give me .002sec faster at bringing shots ON target I'll take it

A lot of people think they know a lot more than they do. Or, they think they are tactical badasses and "games" are a waste of time.