Franklin Armory Providence PCC?

[subsonic]

So they teased this prototype back in January at SHOT show and it was supposed to be out in October or by the end of the year and obviously it isn't. Haven't seen anything since the initial buzz.

Anyone else heard any gossip or updated on it? Will we have a double-action carbine with all the goodies in New York, or is Franklin going for big bellyflops two years in a row?

 

[Mosinitis]

What?

 

[subsonic]

What?

Google's a thing, friend.

 

[Mosinitis]

Googled it and it came up providence performing center.

 

[gun_slinger_boy]

Speaking of google look up the reformation. It may have something to do with this. As a matter of fact I'll just give it to you.

 

[subsonic]

Speaking of google look up the reformation. It may have something to do with this. As a matter of fact I'll just give it to you.

Yeah, the Reformation was what I was talking about with their bellyflop last year. It was ... not very well received long before the ATF put the kibosh on transfers (for now at least), and I don't think they ever really delivered on their weird-ass finned ammo. But that just happened and the Providence was announced in January.

The Reformation was a mostly useless, pricey toy; the Providence looks much more appealing if they stick to a $1,200 price point and it delivers on being a decent 9mm carbine that takes Glock mags and has a trigger that isn't terrible. Then you can keep your swappable magazines, threaded barrel, flash hider, pistol grip, adjustable stock, bayonet and grenade launcher etc. Plus just having a totally new carbine action.

 

[gun_slinger_boy]

Yeah, the Reformation was what I was talking about with their bellyflop last year. It was ... not very well received long before the ATF put the kibosh on transfers (for now at least), and I don't think they ever really delivered on their weird-ass finned ammo. But that just happened and the Providence was announced in January.

The Reformation was a mostly useless, pricey toy; the Providence looks much more appealing if they stick to a $1,200 price point and it delivers on being a decent 9mm carbine that takes Glock mags and has a trigger that isn't terrible. Then you can keep your swappable magazines, threaded barrel, flash hider, pistol grip, adjustable stock, bayonet and grenade launcher etc. Plus just having a totally new carbine action.

Let me put it another way. If you watch the video you will see that the reformation can now not be sold or transferred through FFLs because there is no classification for the gun. The same might be happening with this new gun. I could see the ATF saying that it's an open bolt. Yes. We know it's not but the ATF can say whatever they want. The are claiming that the reformation should be a "GCA" short barrel shotgun.

 

[subsonic]

Let me put it another way. If you watch the video you will see that the reformation can now not be sold or transferred through FFLs because there is no classification for the gun. The same might be happening with this new gun. I could see the ATF saying that it's an open bolt. Yes. We know it's not but the ATF can say whatever they want. The are claiming that the reformation should be a "GCA" short barrel shotgun.

The ATF is saying that but as I understand they are putting a "pause" while they find a classification and update forms or guidance. If they thought they were illegal or nontransferrable they would not let people keep them.

Anyway, that's a hypothetical possibility, although I don't see how a double-action firearm with no gas system could be an open bolt semiautomatic which is a type of semiautomatic when under both federal and NY state law semiauto is defined specifically as "utilizes a portion of the energy of a firing cartridge or shell" (NY Penal Law 265.00) which cannot include a firearm that uses only energy from the trigger pull. Not to mention it's closed bolt anyway.

But that hasn't happened yet. Nothing's happened, so far as I've heard. I guess it's probably just engineering and production issues of bringing the product to market and we'll hear about it when it's ready unless Franklin Armory goes out of business or otherwise scraps it before then.

 

[Edwardteach72]

I think they are waiting on ATF approval

 

[Defilade]

Fuck the ATF!!

 

[Edwardteach72]

Fuck the ATF!!

Yuuup

 

[gun_slinger_boy]

Anyway, that's a hypothetical possibility, although I don't see how a double-action firearm with no gas system could be an open bolt semiautomatic which is a type of semiautomatic when under both federal and NY state law semiauto is defined specifically as "utilizes a portion of the energy of a firing cartridge or shell" (NY Penal Law 265.00) which cannot include a firearm that uses only energy from the trigger pull. Not to mention it's closed bolt anyway.

Uzi's don't have a gas system. They can be both semi auto and fully auto. On the providence when you pull the trigger the bolt goes back to the rear of the receiver. At the end of the pull the bolt goes forward stripping a round and at the end of the travel fires the round with a FIXED firing pin. That's exactly how an open bolt works. It gets past NYs "utilizing a portion of the energy" from the round but it's technically firing from an open bolt (federal no no). The bolt just rests forward the magazine instead of in back of it before firing.

ETA: On the first video in this thread I noticed something at the 43 second mark. Every time he pulls the trigger I can see a bit of bolt bounce when it slams home. Perhaps they are having issues with lock up. I mean if there is bounce dry firing the lock up will have to be quite stout to contain the energy of an actual round.

 

[71velle]

From a firearms perspective what was the point of the Reformation?

 

[Edwardteach72]

From a firearms perspective what was the point of the Reformation?

Giant middle finger to ATF

 

[BDinPutnam]

Giant middle finger to ATF

Which, as we can see, usually turns out well for the finger-extender.

 

[Edwardteach72]

Which, as we can see, usually turns out well for the finger-extender.

That's only because trump is allowing groups like the ATF pass laws and make up definitions whenever they want.

What started this, trump telling the ATF to ban bump stocks.. they took that same unchecked power and used it here and on the fostech firearm

 

[BDinPutnam]

That's only because trump is allowing groups like the ATF pass laws and make up definitions whenever they want.

What started this, trump telling the ATF to ban bump stocks.. they took that same unchecked power and used it here and on the fostech firearm

Dont confuse the word "allow" with the word "instruct."

 

[gun_slinger_boy]

From a firearms perspective what was the point of the Reformation?

Pretty much the same as all of these other things that have come up throughout the years. A work around. Or more accurately, working within the system. It's actually pretty clever with all involved being able to clinch a small corner of the market that caters to communist blocs such as NY and CA. Until the ATF summarily and arbitrarily deems these things illegal.

 

[Edwardteach72]

Dont confuse the word "allow" with the word "instruct."

You are correct I should have wrote "demanded"

 

[subsonic]

Uzi's don't have a gas system. They can be both semi auto and fully auto. On the providence when you pull the trigger the bolt goes back to the rear of the receiver. At the end of the pull the bolt goes forward stripping a round and at the end of the travel fires the round with a FIXED firing pin. That's exactly how an open bolt works. It gets past NYs "utilizing a portion of the energy" from the round but it's technically firing from an open bolt (federal no no). The bolt just rests forward the magazine instead of in back of it before firing.

That's not exactly how open bolts work. Ignoring that the Uzi is a machinegun, it's a blowback operated, openbolt automatic. You cannot cycle an Uzi by repeatedly pulling the trigger, and it still uses energy from the fired cartridge to cycle. (blowback being defined as "obtains energy from the motion of the cartridge case as it is pushed to the rear by expanding gas created by the ignition of the propellant charge")

The providence uses only energy from the trigger pull itself to cycle, like a double-action revolver.

If I'm missing something please feel free to correct me but I'm positive you can't run through a magazine of snap caps in an Uzi by pulling the trigger.

 

[subsonic]

It's actually pretty clever with all involved being able to clinch a small corner of the market that caters to communist blocs such as NY and CA. Until the ATF summarily and arbitrarily deems these things illegal.

Word at the time was the bigger communist market they were going for was overseas, not NY/CA.

I don't know why the ATF would summarily and arbitrarily deem these illegal given that is not happening with true semiautomatics in rifle chamberings. It's NY/CA etc. that I would expect to be going after it.

 

[Edwardteach72]

Word at the time was the bigger communist market they were going for was overseas, not NY/CA.

I don't know why the ATF would summarily and arbitrarily deem these illegal given that is not happening with true semiautomatics in rifle chamberings. It's NY/CA etc. that I would expect to be going after it.

No they were going for ban states just as much as overseas.

And if you read any states definition of semi automatic this gun doesnt fall in that

 

[gun_slinger_boy]

That's not exactly how open bolts work. Ignoring that the Uzi is a machinegun, it's a blowback operated, openbolt automatic. You cannot cycle an Uzi by repeatedly pulling the trigger, and it still uses energy from the fired cartridge to cycle. (blowback being defined as "obtains energy from the motion of the cartridge case as it is pushed to the rear by expanding gas created by the ignition of the propellant charge")

The providence uses only energy from the trigger pull itself to cycle, like a double-action revolver.

If I'm missing something please feel free to correct me but I'm positive you can't run through a magazine of snap caps in an Uzi by pulling the trigger.

Agree on pretty much everything except that it's firing from an open bolt. How it cycles is irrelevant. Or that the bolt stays home after firing (so does an uzi when empty). The fact is, the bolt opens strips the round and fires all in one motion. A slam fire. Yes. The bolt isn't initially held back like on an open bolt but the sequence of events that happens when you pull the trigger all the way back is important. Remember we're talking about the ATF here.

ETA: an uzi can fire one round per trigger pull as well

 

[DrBleachCocktail]

So, it is NY legal?

 

[Edwardteach72]

So, it is NY legal?

Pretty sure they arent really doing anything with the project..

Last update they gave was they sent a prototype to the ATF

 

[BDinPutnam]

Word at the time was the bigger communist market they were going for was overseas, not NY/CA.

I don't know why the ATF would summarily and arbitrarily deem these illegal given that is not happening with true semiautomatics in rifle chamberings. It's NY/CA etc. that I would expect to be going after it.

I do. It looks like a cheeto with a dead squirrel on its head and it's no friend to the 2A.

 

[Vapor]

Abolish the ATF when it comes to private citizens. Let gun running by organized crime be handled by the FBI.


All guns laws are infringements.

 

[subsonic]

Agree on pretty much everything except that it's firing from an open bolt. How it cycles is irrelevant. Or that the bolt stays home after firing (so does an uzi when empty). The fact is, the bolt opens strips the round and fires all in one motion. A slam fire. Yes. The bolt isn't initially held back like on an open bolt but the sequence of events that happens when you pull the trigger all the way back is important. Remember we're talking about the ATF here.

ETA: an uzi can fire one round per trigger pull as well

How it cycles is decidedly not irrelevant. It cycles with finger power. It’s not a semiauto. An Uzi will not cycle at all with snap caps as it relies on the cartridge’s energy to cycle as with any semi- or automatic firearm. Open or closed bolt, it’s physically impossible for this PCC to cycle more than once per trigger pull because the trigger pull is what is powering and driving, and not just triggering, the cycle.

anyway there is zero news on it, probably it died for business and technical reasons.