Franklin Armory Reformation?

[nyenthusiast]

This “firearm” has certainly kicked up a lot of dust within the online firearms community since it was introduced at Shot Show law year. After watching a few videos of the product being demonstrated at this years media day at the range event, I checked out the company’s website in order to investigate a bit further. They have posted a pretty detailed FAQ on this product. To my surprise they indicate that they will be selling it to customers in NY/NJ there. I know a lot of people are critical of the weapons accuracy given its “unique” barrel design (they are claiming 3.5 moa at 100yds). Still, if this proves to be another option for compliance I think it could be worth at least a second look. I’m interested in hearing what folks here think.

 

[GOPerfect]

 

[Marine Cpl]

If it indeed does about 4moa at 100 yards, this would be a good CQB gun for inside the home and outside the home if you have an average sized front and back yard.

I wonder if a 3 or 4 inch rifled muzzle device that can screw onto the barrel threads would provide any benefit if someone invented one?

 

[nyenthusiast]

 

[nyenthusiast]

If it indeed does about 4moa at 100 yards, this would be a good CQB gun for inside the home and outside the home if you have an average sized front and back yard.

I wonder if a 3 or 4 inch rifled muzzle device that can screw onto the barrel threads would provide any benefit if someone invented one?

They are actually developing their own projectiles which they claim will tighten the performance up to around 1 MOA or better. You can still use standard ammo as well of course. Honestly 3.5 MOA is better than most Stock Mini 14’s I’ve encountered, and this doesn’t have expensive proprietary mags and lack of aftermarket parts lol. I think it would make an excellent defensive firearm or range toy for practical applications.

 

[togmaster]

You can purchase or build an "other" that will out perform this gun at a fraction of what Franklin Armory will charge.

 

[nyenthusiast]

You can purchase or build an "other" that will out perform this gun at a fraction of what Franklin Armory will charge.

Can you elaborate please? I believe MSRP on these is under $1500.

 

[ArmedCorgi]

WANT!

 

[MikeyCNY]

Military Arms Channel just did a video on this yesterday (came out yesterday for Patreon supporters, out in a couple of days for public).. Tim/MAC was pleasantly surprised by the accuracy at 50 yards. Yes it was keyholing like crazy but the average MOA (center to center) was roughly equivalent to his short-barreled rifle. Pushing it out to 100 yards it still had man-sized target accuracy (a couple of misses but most hit), BUT he found they had lost so much speed they did not penetrate his thin rubber target. So he does not think the "firearm" is lethal at 100 yards.

Still a neat concept, and he applauded Franklin Armory for finding a 'loophole' for the NFA.

edit: spelling

 

[nyenthusiast]

Military Arms Channel just did a video on this yesterday (came out yesterday for Patreon supporters, out in a couple of days for public).. Tim/MAC was pleasantly surprised by the accuracy at 50 yards. Yes it was keyholing like crazy but the average MOA (center to center) was roughly equivalent to his short-barreled rifle. Pushing it out to 100 yards it still had man-sized target accuracy (a couple of misses but most hit), BUT he found they had lost so much speed they did not penetrate his thin rubber target. So he does not think the "firearm" is lethal at 100 yards.

Still a need concept, and he applauded Franklin Armory for finding a 'loophole' for the NFA.

I’m curious, was he testing the 5.56 or .300 blackout variant? Obviously that’s not ideal if further testing confirms a lack of lethality at that distance. Than again, if the weapon is either for hunting or defensive use, who is really taking a shot at that distance? I could almost see the drop off in energy being advantageous for someone concerned with over penetration for home defense purposes.

 

[MikeyCNY]

I’m curious, was he testing the 5.56 or .300 blackout variant? Obviously that’s not ideal if further testing confirms a lack of lethality at that distance. Than again, if the weapon is either for hunting or defensive use, who is really taking a shot at that distance? I could almost see the drop off in energy being advantageous for someone concerned with over penetration for home defense purposes.

5.56mm - Franklin Armory sent him a 5.56 and .300 Blackout for Testing and Evaluation. He's going to do another video with the .300 Blackout suppressed. (Franklin claims the bullet stays stable for 10 feet after leaving the barrel, so should be suppressor-safe)

Tim did a gelatin test at 15 yards and it definitely made a decent wound cavity in the gel.. might be a good choice for indoors to avoid over-penetration, but I still prefer a handgun for that close. He tried to get readings on his Lab Radar to see velocity and was only getting a reading at the barrel (2200 FPS), it was having a hard time extrapolating for further distances.

 

[nyenthusiast]

5.56mm - Franklin Armory sent him a 5.56 and .300 Blackout for Testing and Evaluation. He's going to do another video with the .300 Blackout suppressed. (Franklin claims the bullet stays stable for 10 feet after leaving the barrel, so should be suppressor-safe)

Tim did a gelatin test at 15 yards and it definitely made a decent wound cavity in the gel.. might be a good choice for indoors to avoid over-penetration, but I still prefer a handgun for that close. He tried to get readings on his Lab Radar to see velocity and was only getting a reading at the barrel (2200 FPS), it was having a hard time extrapolating for further distances.

Honestly, I’ve always felt the super short barreled ar pistols and similar firearms chambered in 5.56 were a bit silly. I would much prefer a projectile with substantially more mass for such a short weapon. I look forward to seeing what the 300 blackout does.

 

[GOPerfect]

I really love that there is still some inovation happenings in the gun world. Seems as of late, the idea of new is disappearing.

 

[togmaster]

Can you elaborate please? I believe MSRP on these is under $1500.

CT4-2A OTHER FIREARM - DELTA LEVEL DEFENSE

 

[garyv350]

You can purchase or build an "other" that will out perform this gun at a fraction of what Franklin Armory will charge.

Can you build this legal without a manufacturing license? I didn't think so.

 

[togmaster]

Can you build this legal without a manufacturing license? I didn't think so.

From what I understand yes. Same as you can build an AR for yourself. The guy in Thailand would know for sure.

 

[nyenthusiast]

CT4-2A OTHER FIREARM - DELTA LEVEL DEFENSE

I’ve seen these, they’re very intriguing. I only know of one FFL in my area that is willing to transfer them. The rest seem extremely reluctant to carry them. I’m not a lawyer or legal expert by any means, but it would seem to me that it would be more difficult for the powers that be to try and call the Reformation a pistol.

 

[nyenthusiast]

 

[Paxal]

How about rifled ammo? It works for shotguns.

 

[garyv350]

From what I understand yes. Same as you can build an AR for yourself. The guy in Thailand would know for sure.

I think you need a manufacturing license. When it comes down to it, shops that fix magazines without one are actually not allowed to do it either. But I personally don't care. You can buy these locally by another manufacturer for $1,100.00. To me that's worth it not to take a chance. Then you can clearly say it was "as manufactured". Like a shockwave is.

 

[BDinPutnam]

How about rifled ammo? It works for shotguns.

Sure there's a huge market for that and it will be affordable.

 

[ArmedCorgi]

How much penetration is lost, if any, at 50 yrds and under with key holing? Seems at that distance key holing would make for a larger wound. Maybe more *cough* "knock down power" since you're hitting with the broad side of the round?

 

[togmaster]

I think you need a manufacturing license. When it comes down to it, shops that fix magazines without one are actually not allowed to do it either. But I personally don't care. You can buy these locally by another manufacturer for $1,100.00. To me that's worth it not to take a chance. Then you can clearly say it was "as manufactured". Like a shockwave is.

Not sure about the license part if you are building it for yourself and not try to sell it. I do understand your point of buying something that was manufactured.

 

[nyenthusiast]

How much penetration is lost, if any, at 50 yrds and under with key holing? Seems at that distance key holing would make for a larger wound. Maybe more *cough* "knock down power" since you're hitting with the broad side of the round?

In the video I shared above Tim does a ballistic gel test from 15yds with the 5.56 version. It seems to produce a pretty significant wound cavity despite the fact that the rounds definitely are key holing. Franklin Armory also has slow motion footage of their 300 blackout variant firing 110 grain ammo at gelatin,and it too appears to cause significant damage. I’ve included a link here to a page they’ve setup specifically regarding this firearm which has info and an image of the round they claim to be developing specifically for this platform.Reformation - Projectile Info

 

[GOYABEAN]

Expensive toy you could build two 80% pistols using SBA3 and have something that's lethal out past 100 yards

 

[nyenthusiast]

Expensive toy you could build two 80% pistols using SBA3 and have something that's lethal out past 100 yards

Maybe if I wasn’t living in NY. Here I’m regulated to a fixed magazine pistol at best. Which is great as a range toy, but all but useless in a practical sense beyond the first ten rounds. I have several bear flag defense speed loaders for my own fixed magazine rifles. They’re fantastic on the range but I wouldn’t want to deal with clearing a double feed etc. on a rifle configured in such a way. In addition, how effective is a pistol really going to be beyond 100yds? Especially if we’re talking about 5.56.

 

[Acer-m14]

Glocks will keyhole with plated bullets too .. at 10 yrd if not less .. seen it .. got 25 to 50 bullets to sell from the box left lol ..

 

[Edwardteach72]

Reasons why I love this gun. It's a fuck you to the ATF, NFA and NRA .

Reasons why I dont love it.. it's kinda trash and a pistol with brace will beat this thing in every conceivable way other than getting to have a vehicle grip (whoopdiedo its not 1999 anymore)

Now if they came up with this idea prior to pistol braces being a thing, or one of the time she ATF said no shouldering of braces, it would make more sense. But at the price point no thank you (yes it is well made and almost all in house)

But again show me one real thing this can do better than even a $400 PSA pistol build with a brace

 

[garyv350]

Reasons why I love this gun. It's a fuck you to the ATF, NFA and NRA .

Reasons why I dont love it.. it's kinda trash and a pistol with brace will beat this thing in every conceivable way other than getting to have a vehicle grip (whoopdiedo its not 1999 anymore)

Now if they came up with this idea prior to pistol braces being a thing, or one of the time she ATF said no shouldering of braces, it would make more sense. But at the price point no thank you (yes it is well made and almost all in house)

But again show me one real thing this can do better than even a $400 PSA pistol build with a brace

The one thing it can do a pistol build doesn't here in NY is be fully fearured and still have a detachable mag.

 

[Edwardteach72]

The one thing it can do a pistol build doesn't here in NY is be fully fearured and still have a detachable mag.

Yea no I bet it cant