ECU Pirates
.308 Win
What’s “standard maintenance” and why do people carry lights that go past the barrel that far and mags that extend that much? Might as well just carry a bigger gun.
Glock vs competitor reliability
- Thread starter Drinkthekoolaid
- Start date
Well standard maintenance would probably be Factory suggested maintenance ie occasional cleaning and lub, change recoil spring every (I believe glock are 5,000 I cant remember).
As for the light well seeing as currently that's the size light needed to get the most lumens and candela available.
Shit I daily carry the same light (ok that's a slight lie, this is the Surefire x300u-b and I carry a x300u-a the difference being the mounting) on a Glock G45(ish) and will eventually be probably moving up to a Glock 17 (more like a G47 clone) or a Glock 34.
As for the extended magazine, 1 theory may be this isnt a concealed carry gun? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ or since it's a glock 17 there isnt actually a "bigger gun" offered by glock.... the G17 and G34 and even the G17L are the same grip size and magazine capacity. And if someone can carry a G17 size grip with a +3 or even 5 with no issue and they dont mind it why shouldnt they?..
But specifically Aaron has said he carries a G45 or G17, and this is most likely one of his class/duty gun
ECU Pirates
.308 Win
Who the is Aaron and is that even really a Glock? I still say if the light extends past the barrel you might as well carry a gun with a longer barrel. That being said I’m guilty of this (to a much lesser extent).
Aaron Cowen he is the owner and lead instructor of Sage Dynamics.
And yes it's still a glock, I believe this is the "field battle" slide milling they offer, their trigger (which is a polished gen 3 (or 4) trigger bar with their flat face trigger) and not sure who did the grip stippling and it looks to be am OEM barrel or both stippling and barrel are agency (I'm almost positive the barrel is OEM)
As for the extended light. The way I carry the 19/45/17 slide and barrel lenght carry perfectly comfortable with that same light, many will add a compensator which brings a G19/45 length to that of a G34 (this would be even with the x300u light) and if this wasnt NY I'd be doing the same or like I said eventually be carrying a G34 with the x300
Acer-m14
20×102mm Vulcan
then they had to up the trigger pull .. for NYPD ..
Yes NYPD didn't feel like spending the time and money retraining an entire police force who was used to revolvers how to not shoot themselves or ND under stress so the New York trigger was created giving the glock a 12lb trigger. Then the NY2 trigger years later which is still being used by NYPD iirc and its at 8 or 10lbs
Well let's get back to the whole reliability vs the competition
An individual was asking about a holster suggestion for their XD with streamlight TLR-1, another individual suggested the Phlster Floodlight because it can be used with all different handguns due to securing on the TLR-1 not the gun (awesome design just a very large holster) and this way when the first person could they can get a better handgun.
Next came the original persons "'I'Ve nEvEr HaD aN iSsUe"
Followed by Matt Landfair's comment (if you dont know Matt, he is the one who started Primary and Secondary, 20+ year LEO, and the main goal for P&S was to start a network for subject matter experts to share info and findings on the gear they tested to get the largest data possible on what is quality and what is junk)
(Blocked in blue is the OP, I wont dox them because it's not important)
Then the conversation continues and Aaron Cowen (who I mentioned before, who is extremely data driven) was mentioned and how he has been tracking failures of guns in his classes. @Darth asked for more info on this, weirdly enough I now have some more data.
If you think about it, if this instructor is teaching classes all over the country to both civilian and Law enforcement (and I believe military but I'm not sure) they are then going to see a very large sample size of guns.
If you do the math he said he has seen 48 XD guns come through his classes since keeping track, that's a pretty low number of a particular option and we arent talking about someone giving a concealed carry into class or some basic ass first time NRA pistol class, mostly professional shooters or those very dedicated to get better and seek quality instructors, and in however many years he has had 48 XD guns come through, sorry went on a side quest..
Anyways so out of those 48 guns, 33 of them had catastrophic failures and could not be fixed.. that is a failure rate of 68.75%
Oh and if you see the other not blocked out name.. that's Chuck Haggard, another national instructor, he is also backing up Aaron's claims by saying he is seeking similar results
An individual was asking about a holster suggestion for their XD with streamlight TLR-1, another individual suggested the Phlster Floodlight because it can be used with all different handguns due to securing on the TLR-1 not the gun (awesome design just a very large holster) and this way when the first person could they can get a better handgun.
Next came the original persons "'I'Ve nEvEr HaD aN iSsUe"
Followed by Matt Landfair's comment (if you dont know Matt, he is the one who started Primary and Secondary, 20+ year LEO, and the main goal for P&S was to start a network for subject matter experts to share info and findings on the gear they tested to get the largest data possible on what is quality and what is junk)
(Blocked in blue is the OP, I wont dox them because it's not important)
Then the conversation continues and Aaron Cowen (who I mentioned before, who is extremely data driven) was mentioned and how he has been tracking failures of guns in his classes. @Darth asked for more info on this, weirdly enough I now have some more data.
If you think about it, if this instructor is teaching classes all over the country to both civilian and Law enforcement (and I believe military but I'm not sure) they are then going to see a very large sample size of guns.
If you do the math he said he has seen 48 XD guns come through his classes since keeping track, that's a pretty low number of a particular option and we arent talking about someone giving a concealed carry into class or some basic ass first time NRA pistol class, mostly professional shooters or those very dedicated to get better and seek quality instructors, and in however many years he has had 48 XD guns come through, sorry went on a side quest..
Anyways so out of those 48 guns, 33 of them had catastrophic failures and could not be fixed.. that is a failure rate of 68.75%
Oh and if you see the other not blocked out name.. that's Chuck Haggard, another national instructor, he is also backing up Aaron's claims by saying he is seeking similar results
Just as a little fun game say in the same time frame Aaron saw 1,000 glocks. For glock to have the same % failure as the number if XD that he saw fail that would be 687 out of 1,000 glocks fail.
Target
6.5 Creedmoor
Can we link the P&S Facebook post where a Kimber failed after 25 rounds in the class?
That would possibly be a higher % than some other brands based on how many were brought to class.
That would possibly be a higher % than some other brands based on how many were brought to class.
ECU Pirates
.308 Win
What kind of guns does sage do work on?
This makes a lot of sense. This is sort of what I was trying to learn by making this thread.
I know as you have posted Aaron's individual story, there are many other high speed people out there who choose to go with Glock.
The 2nd part of my quarantine induced random curiosity, is that, are other competitors well just use for example a cz p10 or sig p320 as reliable and dependable as a g19 or g17? Are good quality modern pistols all relatively comparable in terms of quality, longevity without breaking, rounds fired without stopage etc
ECU Pirates
.308 Win
I would say for the most part yes for the second part. As for “high speed” people.... if they sell parts or certain modified gun brands they might not be giving objective information. Also everyone knows the hk p30 is the best semi automatic ever.
Sage dynamics? They dont do work on guns.
I can probably even find the link from Modern Samurai Project mentioning something about 5 out of 5 STI Staccato P making it through a 2 or 3 day class (right around the time the US Marshall's SOG adopted the STI)
I know the message kind of got buried due to some believing that the Croatian guns are on the same level as Glock or others.
The main point I was getting at, today in modern time if you are to pick a gun on the same "tier" as glock such as (and Matt Landfair mentioned this in one of the screen grabs I posted) FN, CZ, Sig, Beretta, Smith & Wesson, HK or Walther. Then you are going to get the same gun +/-.
Each company offers a glock clone in and around the same price point. Obviously we wont compare a Glock 21 to an HK 23 (the HK being probably the one handgun to survive the most rigorous testing by the military during its development, not quite Apples to Apples, but if you want reliable, there is a fun video on forgotten weapons about the abuse the HK went through and passed)
But if you are to take a Glock 19 and put it against an HK VP9, as much as HK fanboys will argue with me, you essentially have the same gun, yes one may "feel nicer" in the hands or have better sights or "trigger" but when it comes down to it same gun.
Same can be said about the M&P 2.0, P320, 509, and so on
spat
.950 JDJ
The other question is "once the failure rate gets low enough, do the differences even matter ?"
A gun that's twice as unreliable sounds terrible, unless it's one failure in 100k rounds instead of one in 200k rounds. At that point, the odds of having a failure in a critical moment with either are so close to 0 it doesn't matter.
Aaron cowen, steve phishers, Matt Landfair, Chuck Haggard dont sell guns. Yes Aaron is a sponsored shooter by Agency Arms, hes very open about it especially when talking about anything that has been touched by AA and will specifically say he cant review that product but only present what it is.
As for the high speed part, my comment was more along the lines anyone can go take their classes, hell they are offering a red dot defensive handgun class April 25th.
As for their "normal" civilian class offerings here is what they have listed available.
Defensive Handgun
Defensive handgun 1
Defensive Rifle
Defensive Rifle 1
Vehicle Defense-Handgun
Low Light Employment
All of which seem to be 2 day classes and 1,000 round count classes (their military and LEO classes are similar names just change defense to patrol) and then they offer some other open classes based on "concepts and principles"
To be fair 1000 rounds is probably 600 rounds more than most people will ever put through any one gun in a lifetime.
I will put it in this perspective. I put 700 rounds through my Kimber micro 9 in a week and broke the ejector. I am not sure if I had damaged it before during cleaning the gun or not. It was a pretty thin piece of metal. All total I had over 1000 rounds through it before the ejector broke. The Average person will not fire 700 let alone 1000 rounds through a micro 9 in their lifetime.
When I got the replacement gun Kimber sent back the ejector seemed to be redesigned to be a bit beefier. I doubt the replacement will see 1000 rounds from me.
My Springfield XD 40 has 400 rounds through it without issues both of my HK VPs have less than that without issues. Only my some of my 1911s will get more than1000 rounds fired through them in a year. Most of them won’t see 500 rounds in my lifetime.
The point is not many people shoot 1000 rounds in a weekend let alone a lifetime so the odds are in their favor as to never having an issue with their gun when they need it.
The people that shoot a lot know what they like, know it’s capable of the mission at hand, and are comfortable carrying it.
As for glock vs competition, there isn’t a glock in my house. It isn’t because they aren’t good reliable guns, it is because they aren’t good guns for me. No matter what all the experts in the world say or swear by, if it ain’t comfortable in the hand it doesn’t belong in the house.
See that's the problem, you cant call a gun quality or reliable if 1,000 rounds is a lot and there is a chance that it will break in that many rounds.
Shouldnt matter if you are shooting them over a weekend or 12 months
And to be fair we are talking about guns in a duty/defensive roll not some weekend plinker shit.
If you are carrying a gun for defense or duty, 1,000 round bench mark should be a breeze for that gun hell 20,000 should be other than schedule maintenance. To try and bet your life on a gun that cant do that or your not sure it can do that is childish and irresponsible
If you are carrying a gun for defense or duty, 1,000 round bench mark should be a breeze for that gun hell 20,000 should be other than schedule maintenance. To try and bet your life on a gun that cant do that or your not sure it can do that is childish and irresponsible
But that is the truth of the matter. People just don’t put a lot of lead down range. Just because gun a has run 1000 rounds in a week without issue doesn’t mean a different shooter with gun a will do the same. The shooter and their habits have a lot to do with gun malfunctions.
Parts breakage is another issue entirely. A gun make/model that shoots1000 rounds without fail is a reputation that should go across the fleet, there is always going to be an outlier in the fleet but it should be the exception not the rule.
Most people won’t put 500 rounds through their defensive gun in a lifetime. That is just the way people are. Hell they probably won’t put more than 2 magazines of ball ammo through it before they load it up with expensive hollow points that they will never shoot because of the cost.
This is what we are talking about. Parts breaking. That's what those 33 of 48 XD guns had, parts breaking that couldnt be fixed without tools or replacement parts it took the gun out if the fight no amount of tap rack bang would fix that.
Having 33 of 48 not be able to make it through a 2 day class says a lot. Especially if other instructors on the same level (again not Bob or Joe who do Hunter safety or a 5 hour NRA basics class) are reporting the same findings on the same guns.
While other brand guns of a better quality or "higher tier" such as glock sig HK CZ FN are not having such high catastrophic failures in these classes
And that right there doesnt negate that those individuals are irresponsible.
Ehh so bringing an XD to a class probably isn’t a good idea. Doesn’t mean anything in the grand scheme of life to most. If you don’t trust them don’t buy one. The 3 I have personally shot have not had any problems and odds are they never will.
And again there is almost no need to put 100,000 rounds through a gun to verify a specific line of guns.
If a specific group of guns, ie taurus, sccy, HS (because it is not a Springfield Armory Inc. product) have higher rates of breaking at lower round counts using one of those for a defensive gun is just playing with shitty odds, will it break at 100 rounds or 1,000 rounds, will it be 501 rounds but after having it for 8 years and I finally shot 499 rounds at the range but one day then needed to use it for self defense and I have a parts break and I'm just there is a block in my hand???
Or I could have taken the time to realize that others are collecting this data and compiling the results with others and the consensus is they WILL break and they will do so at an earlier time than higher end guns
If a specific group of guns, ie taurus, sccy, HS (because it is not a Springfield Armory Inc. product) have higher rates of breaking at lower round counts using one of those for a defensive gun is just playing with shitty odds, will it break at 100 rounds or 1,000 rounds, will it be 501 rounds but after having it for 8 years and I finally shot 499 rounds at the range but one day then needed to use it for self defense and I have a parts break and I'm just there is a block in my hand???
Or I could have taken the time to realize that others are collecting this data and compiling the results with others and the consensus is they WILL break and they will do so at an earlier time than higher end guns
That last part is wrong though. The odds are showing that your 3 XD guns are more likely to have a problem and break before other brands that SAI tries to pretend the XD is on par with
spat
.950 JDJ
Honestly, the weekend plinker probably puts a lot more rounds through there gun than most "professionals".
The vast majority of people who carry a gun for a living put it on in the morning, carry it around all day then take it off. They do this every day for 6 months, then put 50 rounds though it to "qualify". If it sees 100 rounds a year that's probably good.
Don't mistake the high end operators for the average professional. That's like comparing a CDL holder to a race car driver. Both are professional drivers, but their skillsets are vastly different (as is the reliability requirements of their gear)
Your observation has been noted.
I mean I can pull up 2 different handguns that Aaron has put 100,000 through one and 50 I believe in the other, along with the round counts he has just for pistol optics alone