Health and welfare check turns into police shooting of a homeowner.

FRANKIE · Dec 9, 2021

I’m in no way schooled in police policy.
But my take is the 88 year old man was indeed distressed in some way. So police entry was correct. But the man clearly sounded incoherent due to possibly some form of intoxication or a mental issue. While to me the officer did nothing wrong but could have completely retreated till the cavalry came. Nonetheless very tragic. She was clearly trying to help.

spat · Dec 9, 2021

Could easily have gone the other way, with the officer dead and the homeowner claiming he thought she was breaking in.

I'm not saying the officer did anything wrong, but we sure need to figure out a better way to handle this stuff.

fnfalguy · Dec 9, 2021

People need to understand that the police aren’t social workers, and depending on the circumstances are not the appropriately trained people to be called (usually by family members) to a scene. Failing of our mental health system.

Not sure how that would have helped in this case, and curious what the family members told dispatch.

Grimscale · Dec 9, 2021

And social workers are not trained to confront an armed assailant. Fastest way to a higher body count.

but is it easier to teach cops to be social workers, or teach social workers to defend themselves?

Robin · Dec 9, 2021

Hmmmmm, I cannot type out all that I have to say about this and would have a field day of misinterpretation, so I'll pass.
Robin

Jmac00 · Dec 9, 2021

there is the possibility of suicide by cop, maybe the old guy had enough of life?

tirwin1 · Dec 9, 2021

I'm from the government and I'm here to help.

SomeSoldier · Dec 9, 2021

Case seems cut and dry to me. She had exigent circumstances to enter the home. The home owner thought it was an intruder. The deputy defended herself after identifying herself and giving commands. The only thing that might have changed the outcome is if she didn't get herself cornered and remembered her way out of the house.

fresch · Dec 9, 2021

Get out and protect the populace.
She found the man was alive but something was wrong.
She woke him up,
He was on meds, he wasn't on meds yet.
He was confused.
Never know now because he died from covid.
Still leaves about 7 questions that don't matter because he is dead.

pshift · Dec 9, 2021

This is a tragedy to be sure. If the PO retreated in fear of her life, he followed, and had her cornered, what else could she (or anyone else for that matter) do in that situation? No amount of mental health training and awareness would have prevented this outcome, other than possibly escaping through a window or finding an exit.

Dr. Evil · Dec 9, 2021

It is easy to watch a video and say what one should or shouldn't have done. I do agree with @FRANKIE though that between the individual presenting a firearm as well as the bizarre tone of his voice I would have done my best to exit and come up with a different type of game plan though with others.

Will556 · Dec 9, 2021

FRANKIE said:
I’m in no way schooled in police policy.
But my take is the 88 year old man was indeed distressed in some way. So police entry was correct. But the man clearly sounded incoherent due to possibly some form of intoxication or a mental issue. While to me the officer did nothing wrong but could have completely retreated till the cavalry came. Nonetheless very tragic. She was clearly trying to help.

How much more would you like the officer to retreat? The officer is already backed into a room upstairs on the second floor which most likely has no egress. In fact I would bet the only egress from upstairs would be to go towards the direction of the suspect and down the stairs he is on. I didn’t count, but the officer gave many orders for the suspect to drop the weapon. The suspect can be heard saying “Sit down or I’ll blow you right outta…” The officer has a good head on her shoulders and gives a detailed description of her and suspects locations in reference to inside of the residence while requesting backup to step it up. The man then closed distance and entered the room the officer was in, while entering the room you can hear him say “Where the hell are you at”. From what I’m seeing, that’s a 100% good shoot all day long. You’re by yourself with no backup, you’re absolutely not playing the let me try and disarm this man or use less than lethal at that point.

spat · Dec 9, 2021

Will556 said:
How much more would you like the officer to retreat? The officer is already backed into a room upstairs on the second floor which most likely has no egress. In fact I would bet the only egress from upstairs would be to go towards the direction of the suspect and down the stairs he is on. I didn’t count, but the officer gave many orders for the suspect to drop the weapon. The suspect can be heard saying “Sit down or I’ll blow you right outta…” The officer has a good head on her shoulders and gives a detailed description of her and suspects locations in reference to inside of the residence while requesting backup to step it up. The man then closed distance and entered the room the officer was in, while entering the room you can hear him say “Where the hell are you at”. From what I’m seeing, that’s a 100% good shoot all day long. You’re by yourself with no backup, you’re absolutely not playing the let me try and disarm this man or use less than lethal at that point.

So, they were both issuing orders for the other one to stand down.

The only difference between them was that one of them lived there, and the other shot first.

If the old geezer had fired first and was quoted saying "If she'd just followed orders to drop the weapon she'd still be alive" I bet people would have a different take.

Will556 · Dec 9, 2021

spat said:
So, they were both issuing orders for the other one to stand down.

The only difference between them was that one of them lived there, and the other shot first.

If the old geezer had fired first and was quoted saying "If she'd just followed orders to drop the weapon she'd still be alive" I bet people would have a different take.

No, I don’t think people would be seeing it differently. I’m pretty sure you’d still see everyone saying how the old man was wrong 100%. In what world do you think where a bodycam video that would get released of an officer saying “Sir please put the gun down”, “It’s the police, put the gun down sir”, “Your neighbor was worried about you”, “No one is in trouble, we just wanted make sure you’re ok”, “Sir can you please put the gun down sir”…over and over and over while retreating as much as possible…and then the suspect shoots and kills the police officer. You’re going to tell me that the majority of the population is going to watch that video and think the suspect was justified?! I would bet if that officer was your son or daughter, you’d be saying that’s justified shooting all day long.

spat · Dec 9, 2021

Will556 said:
No, I don’t think people would be seeing it differently. I’m pretty sure you’d still see everyone saying how the old man was wrong 100%. In what world do you think where a bodycam video that would get released of an officer saying “Sir please put the gun down”, “It’s the police, put the gun down sir”, “Your neighbor was worried about you”, “No one is in trouble, we just wanted make sure you’re ok”, “Sir can you please put the gun down sir”…over and over and over while retreating as much as possible…and then the suspect shoots and kills the police officer. You’re going to tell me that the majority of the population is going to watch that video and think the suspect was justified?! I would bet if that officer was your son or daughter, you’d be saying that’s justified shooting all day long.

I didn't say it wasn't a justified shooting.

I'm saying it would have been a justified shooting if it had gone the other way too.

They are not mutually exclusive.

Will556 · Dec 9, 2021

spat said:
I didn't say it wasn't a justified shooting.

I'm saying it would have been a justified shooting if it had gone the other way too.

They are not mutually exclusive.

The only way that guy would ever even get close to being justified for shooting and killing that officer is if they can legally find a way to say he wasn’t mentally stable or fit. Which I’m sure the defense would try obviously. But what it seems like what you’re saying has nothing to do with his mental state. So if that’s the case and a completely coherent mentally stable person is being told over and over again that the person is a police officer, “please drop the weapon”, “I just want to make sure you’re ok”, and then proceed to corner them into a room upstairs with no egress and then shoots and kills them…that he would be justified? I think you’ll have an extremely difficulty if not impossible case there.

BMF JK · Dec 9, 2021

It’s a difficult video to watch knowing the outcome.
I don’t fault the deputy for defending herself , at that point she had no choice .
I have no idea what protocols are in place for such a call , but going in solo announcing myself to a potentially hearing/vision impaired individual would make me very uneasy .

OwnTheRide · Dec 9, 2021

I think the deputy was very much justified in all of her actions.

Like others have stated, ideally she would have exited the premises instead of trapping herself in a bedroom, but that's very easy for me to say with perfect hindsight safely watching from behind my keyboard.

FRB · Dec 9, 2021

Hmmmm....... welfare check? Someone calls the cops because a door is open. Cop ENTERS a man's HOME - he was not hurting anyone. What ever happened to being responsible for our own welfare in our own home when not hurting anyone else? I do not like this.... obviously the officer did nothing wrong legally, but she should NEVER have been in the position she was in in the first place IMO.

Celt · Dec 9, 2021

More than anything, my thoughts are that the "process" of a welfare check has failed. Cant blame her for using DPF at the point she did, but perhaps her judgement to push that far in the home, without backup, was a bad decision. Keep in mind that criminals will impersonate police to commit home invasions and if you are an armed citizen and cops enter your home when youve done nothing wrong what are you going to think?

Was a phone call made to the house first in an attempt to contact the old timer?

Did anyone spend any time observing the house for movement before making any calls or entering? Again, i think there is a problem with the process that led to this tragidy happening.

FRB · Dec 9, 2021

Celt said:
More than anything, my thoughts are that the "process" of a welfare check has failed. Cant blame her for using DPF at the point she did, but perhaps her judgement to push that far in the home, without backup, was a bad decision. Keep in mind that criminals will impersonate police to commit home invasions and if you are an armed citizen and cops enter your home when youve done nothing wrong what are you going to think?

Was a phone call made to the house first in an attempt to contact the old timer?

Did anyone spend any time ovserving the house for movement before making any calls or entering? Again, i think there is a problem with the process that led to this tragidy happening.

Excellent points Celt and questions that have to be answered!

@thewheels · Dec 9, 2021

Jmac00 said:
there is the possibility of suicide by cop, maybe the old guy had enough of life?

^^^This^^^
Suicide by cop.

BMF JK · Dec 9, 2021

@thewheels said:
^^^This^^^
Suicide by cop.

Wouldn’t suicide by cop have a bit more premeditation ? He didn’t call and he wasn’t expecting a LEO in his house . I highly doubt he said shit here’s my chance !
More than likely he was a confused old man . He said something to the effect of come sit here and we’ll figure this out . Keep in mind he was a former LEO , sounds like what an old school LEO would say to de escalate a situation.

@thewheels · Dec 9, 2021

BMF JK said:
Wouldn’t suicide by cop have a bit more premeditation ? He didn’t call and he wasn’t expecting a LEO in his house . I highly doubt he said shit here’s my chance !
More than likely he was a confused old man . He said something to the effect of come sit here and we’ll figure this out . Keep in mind he was a former LEO , sounds like what an old school LEO would say to de escalate a situation.

Maybe...but at roughly 4:25 he blatantly threatens her. "Sit down or I'll blow you right outta there"
Regardless of what he did in his former life, that's no attempt to de-escalate.
He obviously hears her based on his responses so he's not deaf and he knows backup is on the way. She isn't being quiet on the radio.
He knows he's got her cornered and proceeds into the room with his firearm anyways.
Somebody pissed in his wheaties, an old family member or friend just died or he sent his life savings to a nigerian prince the night before - whatever...he seized the moment.

fresch · Dec 9, 2021

Cop against cop ego,
Like I said and others have brought up, many questions on coulda, shoulda, woulda, didn't, and an innocent person is dead.
Retreat and have a, negotiation by a "trained professional".
Had she retreated out of the house, she still may have to shoot the old bass turd if he came out gun drawn.

BMF JK · Dec 9, 2021

@thewheels said:
Maybe...but at roughly 4:25 he blatantly threatens her. "Sit down or I'll blow you right outta there"
Regardless of what he did in his former life, that's no attempt to de-escalate.
He obviously hears her based on his responses so he's not deaf and he knows backup is on the way. She isn't being quiet on the radio.
He knows he's got her cornered and proceeds into the room with his firearm anyways.
Somebody pissed in his wheaties, an old family member or friend just died or he sent his life savings to a nigerian prince the night before - whatever...he seized the moment.

You may be right who knows ? It really didn’t seem he completely understood what she was saying. His responses were rather general in nature to someone he may believe is an intruder.
You don’t have to be deaf to not clearly make out what you’re hearing. You know someone is talking , not necessarily what is being said.

Health and welfare check turns into police shooting of a homeowner.

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