Health and welfare check turns into police shooting of a homeowner.

[Will556]

No offense but saying the Deputy should have retreated down the stairs right away isn’t quite looking at the whole picture there. You can hear the man standing literally right behind the door and he says he has a gun. There was no telling how soon or quickly the suspect would be opening that door. The Deputy backed up and found the first thing of concealment being that 90 degree vertical wall on the right of the top landing of the stairs. Now if that Deputy were to have attempted to go down that stairs and that suspect opened that door right away, that suspect has the perfect vantage point right over the rail while you try and get down the stairs as quick as possible…which getting down or up stairs is never faster than being on flat ground. She’s now taking fire from right above her and most likely would have been a sitting duck and ended up being killed. If you asked anyone who has had enough training they will tell you that fighting in stairwells is a complete shit storm, it’s one of the worst situations to be in. Have you heard of the acronym “SHOCK”, it stands for Stairs, Hallways, Open Doors, Closed Doors, Known Area”. It goes from most likely going to be shit storm down to least likely to be a shit show (hopefully). If I’m about to get into a gun fight with someone I’m am not going to purposely choose to have it go down while I’m standing in the middle of a set of stairs.

 

[fresch]

Then perhaps a phone call before entering a two story alone would be in order.
Most 2 story houses have stairwells.
Point is a person is dead.
What if the cops didn't show up and enter; would he have closed the garage door and so everything would have been ok.

 

[Will556]

There’s a lot of Monday morning quarterbacking that can be done no matter what, and that’s exactly what happens in these kind of situations. Do you know if anyone attempted to call or are you just assuming that no one did? Do I agree that it would be helpful to have backup before going in, absolutely...it’s always nice to have backup. But now you’re changing the situation entirely. We are judging the situation on what did occur and the factors of it, not changing them. I can also tell you that most of the time departments aren’t sending multiple officers to a middle of the day welfare check for an 88 year old.

 

[fresch]

Dead is still dead, for someone who did nothing wrong inside their home; perhaps two people to welfare checks are in order.
yes, Monday qb,

 

[Deplorable Me]

What happened, shouldn't have happened. This past year has been brutal on some people's mental health. Add to the fact there was an aging mind. Then throw on to the mix the world has been shitting on LEO's, no support from the political establishment trying to make points with ungrateful constituents. It's a hostile toxic social environment. I'd bet 20 years ago, the guy would have been talked down and taken for help, cop would have gone home feeling like they made a difference that day.

But no, it's a shitstorm out there with everyone feeling a little edgy.

 

[SomeSoldier]

There’s a lot of Monday morning quarterbacking that can be done no matter what, and that’s exactly what happens in these kind of situations. Do you know if anyone attempted to call or are you just assuming that no one did? Do I agree that it would be helpful to have backup before going in, absolutely...it’s always nice to have backup. But now you’re changing the situation entirely. We are judging the situation on what did occur and the factors of it, not changing them. I can also tell you that most of the time departments aren’t sending multiple officers to a middle of the day welfare check for an 88 year old.

Honestly, that is kinda the point of this thread per the OPs post.

 

[FRANKIE]

As to the original post by @GOPerfect ;

“Kind of want to see if this post warrants any good discussion.
If possible, please”

I think he has incredible insight.
Great discussion from law enforcement and civilians alike. And I suspect will go on for some time. But the post that struck me the most, that sums it all up for me was the latter part of post #3 @spat;

“I'm not saying the officer did anything wrong, but we sure need to figure out a better way to handle this stuff.”

 

[Will556]

Honestly, that is kinda the point of this thread per the OPs post.

Ok, sure. Even still, most departments (and I’m saying most because I can’t speak in absolutes) are not sending out multiple officers for a well-being check. Especially for one in the middle of the day and one for an 88 year old, it’s just how it is. I’m not saying it’s the perfect situation, but that’s how it goes usually. Sometimes there just isn’t enough manpower in departments to logistically make that happen. If this situation was to happen with a department where there wouldn’t have been a backup unit, the situation would have been the same regardless. I’ve been to plenty on my own. I went to one last month where the man was deceased on the couch. I went to one just last week in the middle of the night where I found an elderly lady in her bedroom on the second floor, face first on the floor, completely naked, freezing, and incoherent. The lady needed immediate medical attention. In a department in some places where the closest backup could be up to almost an hour way, that time matters. Not just for the officer but the person your attempting to help. Sometimes officers attempt to make the best decisions possible with what they are given and sometimes it ends up a problem no matter what. I wish it would have gone down differently with no one dying and someone not having to take another’s life. As mentioned before, he could have been set on suicide by cop and it would have ended that way no matter how many officers were there.

 

[Celt]

As to the original post by @GOPerfect ;

“Kind of want to see if this post warrants any good discussion.
If possible, please”

I think he has incredible insight.
Great discussion from law enforcement and civilians alike. And I suspect will go on for some time. But the post that struck me the most, that sums it all up for me was the latter part of post #3 @spat;

“I'm not saying the officer did anything wrong, but we sure need to figure out a better way to handle this stuff.”

Fyi, LEOs are civilians.

 

[holdover]

I am thinking that this old,88 year old man was just fully confused.

100% the fact that he left his doors open for 2 days and his actions with the deputy lead me to believe the same.

 

[spat]

The only way that guy would ever even get close to being justified for shooting and killing that officer is if they can legally find a way to say he wasn’t mentally stable or fit. Which I’m sure the defense would try obviously. But what it seems like what you’re saying has nothing to do with his mental state. So if that’s the case and a completely coherent mentally stable person is being told over and over again that the person is a police officer, “please drop the weapon”, “I just want to make sure you’re ok”, and then proceed to corner them into a room upstairs with no egress and then shoots and kills them…that he would be justified? I think you’ll have an extremely difficulty if not impossible case there.

He just needs to show that he didn't honestly didn't believe it was an officer.

Could be his mental state, could be dark and he's hard of hearing, could be a lot of things.

Could even be that he didn't believe her for some good reason. Criminals do lie about that. Hell, the kid in Michigan lied about being an officer to try and get into one of the class rooms. He did it badly, but that doesn't mean someone else can't do better.

He may have cornered the intruder, but she didn't follow his orders to put down her weapon, so she was still a threat, obviously.

 

[spat]

I see no ego in this at all.

I saw a cop responding to a call of possible need.

Upon arrival, doors are noticed open, no response to calls. She was there 100% for good, not to stoke her ego.

Old man, I will guess, has some old timer mental issues. Hears her, but nothing is registering in his mind in the positive. Again no ego from him.

"Sometimes everyone does everything right and bad things still happen"

 

[spat]

No offense but saying the Deputy should have retreated down the stairs right away isn’t quite looking at the whole picture there. You can hear the man standing literally right behind the door and he says he has a gun. There was no telling how soon or quickly the suspect would be opening that door. The Deputy backed up and found the first thing of concealment being that 90 degree vertical wall on the right of the top landing of the stairs. Now if that Deputy were to have attempted to go down that stairs and that suspect opened that door right away, that suspect has the perfect vantage point right over the rail while you try and get down the stairs as quick as possible…which getting down or up stairs is never faster than being on flat ground. She’s now taking fire from right above her and most likely would have been a sitting duck and ended up being killed. If you asked anyone who has had enough training they will tell you that fighting in stairwells is a complete shit storm, it’s one of the worst situations to be in. Have you heard of the acronym “SHOCK”, it stands for Stairs, Hallways, Open Doors, Closed Doors, Known Area”. It goes from most likely going to be shit storm down to least likely to be a shit show (hopefully). If I’m about to get into a gun fight with someone I’m am not going to purposely choose to have it go down while I’m standing in the middle of a set of stairs.

People keep calling him a suspect.

Suspected of what ?

To be a suspect, there has to be an alleged crime to be suspect of committing.

Doesn’t seem like he was a suspect for anything.

Just a confused old dude minding his own business.

 

[spat]

Dead is still dead, for someone who did nothing wrong inside their home; perhaps two people to welfare checks are in order.
yes, Monday qb,

True, a lone gunman entering your house claiming to be a cop does seem like it broadcasts the "home invader pretending to be a cop" vibe.

If there were more of them, and a couple cop cars out front it adds a lot of credibility.

 

[fresch]

Door open for two days, skunk, opossum, just painted the floor?

 

[spat]

No offense but saying the Deputy should have retreated down the stairs right away isn’t quite looking at the whole picture there. You can hear the man standing literally right behind the door and he says he has a gun. There was no telling how soon or quickly the suspect would be opening that door. The Deputy backed up and found the first thing of concealment being that 90 degree vertical wall on the right of the top landing of the stairs. Now if that Deputy were to have attempted to go down that stairs and that suspect opened that door right away, that suspect has the perfect vantage point right over the rail while you try and get down the stairs as quick as possible…which getting down or up stairs is never faster than being on flat ground. She’s now taking fire from right above her and most likely would have been a sitting duck and ended up being killed. If you asked anyone who has had enough training they will tell you that fighting in stairwells is a complete shit storm, it’s one of the worst situations to be in. Have you heard of the acronym “SHOCK”, it stands for Stairs, Hallways, Open Doors, Closed Doors, Known Area”. It goes from most likely going to be shit storm down to least likely to be a shit show (hopefully). If I’m about to get into a gun fight with someone I’m am not going to purposely choose to have it go down while I’m standing in the middle of a set of stairs.

Fighting in a stairway is a shit show, it should be avoided if at all possible.

But that's assuming your goal is to fight.

If you are retreating and attempting to avoid the fight, you can be down and out of any single story stairwell in seconds.

 

[dwa12479]

Looks to me like a bad luck tragedy. The homeowner was obviously very confused, not uncommon for folks his age. Out of the ordinary activity like doors being open for days at a time is absolutely justifiable in having a wellness check, especially given the homeowners age.

The officer held off using DPF for about as long as could be possibly expected to, and seemed to be justified when she did. It was truly the last resort. Terrible tragedy all the way around.

 

[Nighttrain]

Let’s see 88 year old former officer, house is wide open, he is not responding to the investigating officer, upon locating the home owner, he has a weapon in hand and follows the officer into another room. Doing what officers do when pursuing a bad guy.

At this age the beginning stages of dementia is very high, I was just in a similar situation recently, the gentleman in question, a former officer did not recognize his caregiver. He attempted to restrain her.

 

[Will556]

Fighting in a stairway is a shit show, it should be avoided if at all possible.

But that's assuming your goal is to fight.

If you are retreating and attempting to avoid the fight, you can be down and out of any single story stairwell in seconds.

At the point when the officer would have needed to get down the stairs wasn’t until after the fact the man who is standing directly behind a door announced “I have a gun…” At that point he is the one that escalated it to a fight, it was nothing if the sort until then. For whatever reason the man decided to act that way, be it that he believed it to be an intruder or any other reason, it doesn’t matter…you are now possibly in a fight for your life. And sure you can be down a set of stairs in seconds, but not as fast as it takes a person to open a door that’s directly next to and has the view directly above the open staircase.

I believe if you, myself, or anyone for that matter were put in the same simulation scenario as the officer with sim rounds that as soon as you knock on the bedroom door, the man behind the door announces that they have a gun, the man gets to open the door immediately after announcing and has intent on firing his weapon. With believing the stairs is the best egress, the simulated officer now has to go down those stairs. I would put very good money down that the simulated officer gets shot a majority of the time, if not almost every single time. I’m not willing to put my life on the line with those odds.

 

[spat]

At the point when the officer would have needed to get down the stairs wasn’t until after the fact the man who is standing directly behind a door announced “I have a gun…” At that point he is the one that escalated it to a fight, it was nothing if the sort until then. For whatever reason the man decided to act that way, be it that he believed it to be an intruder or any other reason, it doesn’t matter…you are now possibly in a fight for your life. And sure you can be down a set of stairs in seconds, but not as fast as it takes a person to open a door that’s directly next to and has the view directly above the open staircase.

I believe if you, myself, or anyone for that matter were put in the same simulation scenario as the officer with sim rounds that as soon as you knock on the bedroom door, the man behind the door announces that they have a gun, the man gets to open the door immediately after announcing and has intent on firing his weapon. With believing the stairs is the best egress, the simulated officer now has to go down those stairs. I would put very good money down that the simulated officer gets shot a majority of the time, if not almost every single time. I’m not willing to put my life on the line with those odds.

The tactical utility would depend greatly on the interior layout of the house, which we do not know at this time.

I will say that a retreat down a stairway to an area you have already cleared is more attractive than a retreat into an unknown room in an unknown condition in many cases though.

 

[fresch]

He was 88,
Pick one, yes he was able to move like a younger man or he couldn't.
If he could, we now need to know why a call was made in the first place.
Garage door open for 2 days, so what.
We have no idea or information and probably will never have any, just sad death was the only answer; hope it wasn't someone's grandpa on here.

 

[spat]

And here's one that went the other way.

Texas gunman who mistook cop for home intruder acquitted of murder

David Wilson faced life in prison if convicted of the 2019 killing of Midland Police Department Officer Nathan Heidelberg.

nypost.com

We really need to rethink what we ask police to do anymore.

Police really need to be there to arrest criminals only. Turning them into this all purpose troube shooting organization is a terrible idea.

Police are the right responders for this Texas case, but probably not for the OP story.

Before cops are sent, the dispatcher should be answering the question "do you think a crime has been or is being committed". If the answer is not "yes", then maybe someone else should go.

 

[Acer-m14]

why didn't the neighbor go check first ??

 

[Nighttrain]

why didn't the neighbor go check first ??

Most today don’t know who their neighbors are and don’t put any effort in to do so,

 

[@thewheels]

And here's one that went the other way.

Texas gunman who mistook cop for home intruder acquitted of murder

David Wilson faced life in prison if convicted of the 2019 killing of Midland Police Department Officer Nathan Heidelberg.

nypost.com

We really need to rethink what we ask police to do anymore.

Police really need to be there to arrest criminals only. Turning them into this all purpose troube shooting organization is a terrible idea.

Police are the right responders for this Texas case, but probably not for the OP story.

Before cops are sent, the dispatcher should be answering the question "do you think a crime has been or is being committed". If the answer is not "yes", then maybe someone else should go.

Are you suggesting we only use hammers for nails? I like it. You're on to something.

 

[SonOfSun]

Case seems cut and dry to me. She had exigent circumstances to enter the home. The home owner thought it was an intruder. The deputy defended herself after identifying herself and giving commands. The only thing that might have changed the outcome is if she didn't get herself cornered and remembered her way out of the house.

What's to stop a home invader from yelling "sherrifs office"? Someone comes in my home and won't leave I'm assuming they're there to do me harm regardless of what they are saying because people lie. If I was a burglar I'd yell "police" to get them to ease up and give me an advantage. If it really was an officer they can get on a bullhorn from outside and yell in which is something a home invader won't do for obvious reasons. The fact they wouldn't leave and yell from a safe place would make me immediately suspect they are not really an officer.

Once it was established the person was in the house and didn't want to engage a better course of action would be to leave the premise, wait for additional help - maybe get in contact with a relative.

This type of call has to be really stressful for the officers.

 

[Celt]

People keep calling him a suspect.

Suspected of what ?

To be a suspect, there has to be an alleged crime to be suspect of committing.

Doesn’t seem like he was a suspect for anything.

Just a confused old dude minding his own business.

I noticed that too but left it alone until you said something. It seems that has to do with a mindset of us versus them. And that's not meant as a dig to anyone, more about human psychology, and all the more reason for better policies specifically in cases like this where a person is NOT suspected of a crime.

 

[Nighttrain]

What's to stop a home invader from yelling "sherrifs office"? Someone comes in my home and won't leave I'm assuming they're there to do me harm regardless of what they are saying because people lie. If I was a burglar I'd yell "police" to get them to ease up and give me an advantage. If it really was an officer they can get on a bullhorn from outside and yell in which is something a home invader won't do for obvious reasons. The fact they wouldn't leave and yell from a safe place would make me immediately suspect they are not really an officer.

Once it was established the person was in the house and didn't want to engage a better course of action would be to leave the premise, wait for additional help - maybe get in contact with a relative.

This type of call has to be really stressful for the officers.

Before opening the door, or in this instance call 911 dispatch will know who is at your door and advise you, if they do not know of any officers being at your address, they will be sending officers promptly,
The same applies when your vehicle is being pulled over.

Remember when ‘Terrifying’ raid by unlicensed bounty hunters in Buffalo ends with guilty plea

 

[SonOfSun]

Before opening the door, or in this instance call 911 dispatch will know who is at your door and advise you, if they do not know of any officers being at your address, they will be sending officers promptly,
The same applies when your vehicle is being pulled over.

Remember when ‘Terrifying’ raid by unlicensed bounty hunters in Buffalo ends with guilty plea

I still think there should be better procedures in place. Put yourself in the homeowners shoes.

He is in his own home minding his business.
He didn't call the police.
Someone unknown and uninvited is walking through his home.

He has no reason to belive the police would be there. It's not as if he called them and they showed up a few minutes later. If it was me in those circumstances I would not think it was the police, regardless of what they are saying. I'd think it was someone lying about being the police since police don't usually just walk into someone's home.

Calling 911 is a good idea to confirm, but it never should have got to that point to begin with. I don't think the cop was trying to do anything wrong. It's pretty clear from the body camera they were trying to help. I don't think the cop failed, I think the procedures failed. In the end an innocent guy is dead and the cop is probably in a dark place from this too. It's a sad event with no winners.

 

[holdover]

Your not all wrong there Sonofbitch.