Health and welfare check turns into police shooting of a homeowner.

[holdover]

What's to stop a home invader from yelling "sherrifs office"? Someone comes in my home and won't leave I'm assuming they're there to do me harm regardless of what they are saying because people lie. If I was a burglar I'd yell "police" to get them to ease up and give me an advantage.

This does happen.

 

[Nighttrain]

I still think there should be better procedures in place. Put yourself in the homeowners shoes.

He is in his own home minding his business.
He didn't call the police.
Someone unknown and uninvited is walking through his home.

He has no reason to belive the police would be there. It's not as if he called them and they showed up a few minutes later. If it was me in those circumstances I would not think it was the police, regardless of what they are saying. I'd think it was someone lying about being the police since police don't usually just walk into someone's home.

Calling 911 is a good idea to confirm, but it never should have got to that point to begin with. I don't think the cop was trying to do anything wrong. It's pretty clear from the body camera they were trying to help. I don't think the cop failed, I think the procedures failed. In the end an innocent guy is dead and the cop is probably in a dark place from this too. It's a sad event with no winners.

If you are going to write a new procedure for officers to follow when doing a welfare check what would it be ?

 

[Carlos Hathcock]

Nobody wins here and there's no right answer. Officers went there to help, not to shoot an old man to death. Old man seemed potentially confused. I doubt either one had intentions of murder. Time will reveal more information. I blame neither and it was a tragedy on all fronts.

 

[Doc8404]

Sad? Yes.
justified? Yes.
avoidable? Possibly. Make contact. GTFO

 

[Toecutter]

My feeling , she made mistakes .
First entering, I know it was legal, I don't agree with entering someone's home . Then going in alone was another mistake.

Phone calls,more noise knocking and ringing could have worked.

Then retreating into a bedroom was another mistake left her no options, it was clear she could have gone downstairs.

Tragic, I think she should be fired for making poor decisions but not charged.

 

[fresch]

We jump to conclusion he is old so.
I say look at Congress, perhaps we need to call in a welfare check on them?

 

[Darth]

Could easily have gone the other way, with the officer dead and the homeowner claiming he thought she was breaking in.

I'm not saying the officer did anything wrong, but we sure need to figure out a better way to handle this stuff.

It was a good shoot, no doubt, but here is where we need to be careful:

Welfare checks should not be carte blanch to chuck the 4A. "Exigent circumstances" is becoming as worthless as "I saw him reaching" or "Terry stop!"

Am I saying I'd rather somebody die from lack of checking on the part of the police than to chance it with 4A issues?

Yes, that's what I'm saying.

 

[Darth]

More than anything, my thoughts are that the "process" of a welfare check has failed. Cant blame her for using DPF at the point she did, but perhaps her judgement to push that far in the home, without backup, was a bad decision. Keep in mind that criminals will impersonate police to commit home invasions and if you are an armed citizen and cops enter your home when youve done nothing wrong what are you going to think?

Was a phone call made to the house first in an attempt to contact the old timer?

Did anyone spend any time observing the house for movement before making any calls or entering? Again, i think there is a problem with the process that led to this tragidy happening.

Good points. And what is preventing a bad dude from realizing he's in the shit and yelling "Sherriff's Office!" to give him the chance he needs?

 

[Grimscale]

left her no options

Yeah, since we all know they'd never put their gun away to defuse a situation, something they EXPECT us plebs to do every time.

Even on here, the mantra is "just comply and you'll live".

 

[holdover]

My feeling , she made mistakes .
First entering, I know it was legal, I don't agree with entering someone's home . Then going in alone was another mistake.

Phone calls,more noise knocking and ringing could have worked.

Then retreating into a bedroom was another mistake left her no options, it was clear she could have gone downstairs.

Tragic, I think she should be fired for making poor decisions but not charged.

People's lives are on the line, time is an element in these situations . How many peoples lives were saved in time because of a welfare check?

Overall, these checks are a good thing. Thats how you have to look at it . To many Protocols are going to cost a lot more lives in the long run.

Tactically speaking, retreating down the stairs and exposeing your back to a man with a gun isnt a great idea either. She took immediate cover the way she was trained. and if you watch the video again , you'll notice she was past the stairway when she first saw the gun and would have had to move closer to the gunman to retreat down the steps . We can Monday morning quarterback all day, but she only had a few seconds to decide to take the stairs or not. The situation at the moment was the guy said he had a gun, thats all she knew, if she takes the stairs he might have bolted out of the room and easily killed her on the stairs or landing. He might have been younger and in good shape too. at that point she didnt know, and was probably thinking the man would put the gun down once he knew she was an officer. That it was Just a misunderstanding.

It was a judgement call she made in the heat of the moment. It wasnt perfect , I cant fault her here.

As far as phone calls we dont know if calls weren't made by neighbor or police at this point. I would assume somebody did. But We dont have the information.

Her command presence was pretty shitty , Ill give you that.

 

[holdover]

Good points. And what is preventing a bad dude from realizing he's in the shit and yelling "Sherriff's Office!" to give him the chance he needs?

None, it has happened before.

 

[fresch]

That's why I always just come out blazing!

 

[Toecutter]

People's lives are on the line, time is an element in these situations . How many peoples lives were saved in time because of a welfare check?

Overall, these checks are a good thing. Thats how you have to look at it . To many Protocols are going to cost a lot more lives in the long run.

Tactically speaking, retreating down the stairs and exposeing your back to a man with a gun isnt a great idea either. She took immediate cover the way she was trained. and if you watch the video again , you'll notice she was past the stairway when she first saw the gun and would have had to move closer to the gunman to retreat down the steps . We can Monday morning quarterback all day, but she only had a few seconds to decide to take the stairs or not. The situation at the moment was the guy said he had a gun, thats all she knew, if she takes the stairs he might have bolted out of the room and easily killed her on the stairs or landing. He might have been younger and in good shape too. at that point she didnt know, and was probably thinking the man would put the gun down once he knew she was an officer. That it was Just a misunderstanding.

It was a judgement call she made in the heat of the moment. It wasnt perfect , I cant fault her here.

As far as phone calls we dont know if calls weren't made by neighbor or police at this point. I would assume somebody did. But We dont have the information.

Her command presence was pretty shitty , Ill give you that.

I know things happen fast and police need to react even faster. When she took cover it didn't look like he had even opened the door yet. That knee wall would have given her as much concealment as the doorway . Neither would have provided cover.
Bottom line is police e need more training and should not enter a home unless absolutely necessary. I don't think she should be charged criminally, was a good shoot ,but her poor decision left her no other options.

 

[Blimey]

My thought is if she could have semi-barricaded herself and evacuated through a window (easier said than done) she could have just driven away and that's that.

She announced herself a ton of times. The guy was obviously suffering some mental defect at the time (likely hence the wellness check). Good thing for vest cams.

 

[holdover]

That's why I always just come out blazing!

Shrewd, dont take any chances.

 

[Toecutter]

That's why I always just come out blazing!

 

[spat]

If you are going to write a new procedure for officers to follow when doing a welfare check what would it be ?

Stop doing them.

If you don't suspect a crime is being committed, maybe send paramedics instead ?

If the neighbor reported sounds of a struggle, then, yea, cops.

But if it's not that, then paramedics would be more appropriate if you suspect some sort of medical emergency.

 

[FRB]

Honestly, that is kinda the point of this thread per the OPs post.

My immediate thought too!

 

[Saltwater60]

I personally have no problem with what the police officer did. She was clearly there ona welfare check since you can hear the neighbor. She announced herself numerous times. For a while I was thinking she should have told him she was there for a welfare check and then she did. The homeowner even says I will blow your head off.
East for all to say she should have gone down the stairs, but I feel she would have been exposed and she thought when she told him why she was there he would have dropped the gun. I would not have expected him to keep advancing.
She tried to get help there and she waited as long as she could to discharge her firearm. She Eve backed up out of the doorway. She didn’t empty her mag, she shot him twice then stopped.
I fully support and feel what she did was more than adequate. Do t get me wrong I do t wish the man dead, but clearly it is of his own doing.
Anyone can sit here and say well he was one meds, he was drunk Yada yada yada. It doesn’t matter she had to defend herself regardless of his condition. She did right.

 

[Saltwater60]

Stop doing them.

If you don't suspect a crime is being committed, maybe send paramedics instead ?

If the neighbor reported sounds of a struggle, then, yea, cops.

But if it's not that, then paramedics would be more appropriate if you suspect some sort of medical emergency.

While I understand your thoughts and they do make sense I feel in this case a medic or two would be dead.

 

[Saltwater60]

Cop against cop ego,
Like I said and others have brought up, many questions on coulda, shoulda, woulda, didn't, and an innocent person is dead.
Retreat and have a, negotiation by a "trained professional".
Had she retreated out of the house, she still may have to shoot the old bass turd if he came out gun drawn.

He said sit down or I’ll blow you away. He knew what was going on. She stayed who she was multiple times and gave him multiple and ample opportunity to stop and put the gun down. She even said you’re not in trouble I just want to make sure your ok. I saw no ego in this at all. She didn’t even have her gun drawn until he presented his. If she went in there with an AR drawn all tactical like I’d agree with you. Her actions showed no aggression at all.

 

[spat]

While I understand your thoughts and they do make sense I feel in this case a medic or two would be dead.

Maybe, maybe not.

But the fact remains that people die the way we do things now.

So a new system just needs to be better, not perfect.

 

[Saltwater60]

Maybe, maybe not.

But the fact remains that people die the way we do things now.

So a new system just needs to be better, not perfect.

I’m sure whatever they come up with will not be better. I don’t know what the anwser is, but we generally don’t improve things. Case and point is the “bail reform” it’s been a disaster. Police reforms have been a disaster since they cancel all the effective programs and now that crime has increased they are bringing them back.
Clearly this example is not a shining example of anything successful. I do feel bad for the man, but I don’t really feel like the officer caused this.