Home defense shooting in Ilion a mile from Remington

[Snappo]

This just happened a mile from the Remington Arms plant in Ilion.

WKTV.com | Home intruder shot, killed on Richfield Street in Ilion

 

[GOYABEAN]

guess they won't try that again

 

[Bananabandit]

I know a Reminton wasnt used. Since the firearm worked.

 

[MothMan]

I truly hope the homeowner is found to be justified in his actions. However I am afraid of how law enforcement will treat this being we are in Newyorkistan!

 

[Snappo]

guess they won't try that again

I'm wondering if the weak Castle Doctrine laws are going to cause this homeowner some legal costs?

New York Castle Doctrine and Stand Your Ground Laws Facts and Myths

Is New York a Castle Doctrine State?

Let’s first define what Castle Doctrine is.

Castle Doctrine is a legal treatise that formulates around the philosophy that a “man’s home is his castle.” It provides legal presumption of an intruder’s intent to inflict serious bodily harm or death to the homeowners simply by their unlawful entrance into said home. Castle Doctrine relieves the homeowner from their duty to abandon their home or their obligation to announce their intentions to use deadly force when defending themselves and/or their property.

In summary, Castle Doctrine:

• Automatically relieves the “victim” of having to leave their property when a break-in happens
• Automatically proves the attacker’s intent to do harm simply because they broke in

With Castle Doctrine, someone unlawfully entering your property will legally provide proof of your intruder’s intent, but it still leaves the burden of proving their ability and opportunity to do serious physical injury on you. This is normally a very important and essential key to someone’s justification of their use of deadly force in self-defense because in most states your legal defense will consist of having to provide evidence of your attacker’s Ability, Opportunity, and Intent to do serious physical injury to you (or someone else), otherwise known as an Affirmative Defense. We say normally, because while most states put the burden of proving such things on the defendant, New York does not!

Most states consider the use of deadly force in self-defense an Affirmative Defense – not so with New York:

“THE RIGHT TO DEFEND ONESELF OR ANOTHER WAS EARLY CODIFIED IN THIS STATE AS AN INTEGRAL PART OF THE MURDER STATUTES, AND THIS COURT HAS LONG HELD THE PEOPLE HAVE THE BURDEN OF DISPROVING BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT A DEFENDANT’S CLAIM THAT HE WAS ACTING IN THE EXERCISE OF THAT RIGHT. ACCORDINGLY, JUSTIFICATION UNDER THE PENAL LAW IS AN ORDINARY DEFENSE RATHER THAN AN AFFIRMATIVE ONE. AS SUCH, WHENEVER JUSTIFICATION IS SUFFICIENTLY INTERPOSED BY THE DEFENDANT, THE PEOPLE MUST PROVE ITS ABSENCE TO THE SAME DEGREE AS ANY ELEMENT OF THE CRIME CHARGED.” PEOPLE V. MCMANUS, 67 N.Y. 2D 541 (1986)

New York State Penal Law, Article 25 defines:

1) When a “defense,” other than an “affirmative defense,” defined by statute is raised at a trial, the people have the burden of disproving such defense beyond a reasonable doubt.

2) When a defense declared by statute to be an “affirmative defense” is raised at a trial, the defendant has the burden of establishing such defense by a preponderance of the evidence.

This means that where most states require the defendant to prove they were innocent, New York leaves the burden on The People (through the discretion of law enforcement and the justice system) to prove that it was wrong for the “victim” to defend themselves with deadly force. The advantage to this however is that it is procedurally more in line with Fifth Amendment protections and its justification is generally more flexible in decree.

“JUSTIFICATION DOES NOT MAKE A CRIMINAL USE OF FORCE LAWFUL; IF THE USE OF FORCE IS JUSTIFIED, IT CANNOT BE CRIMINAL AT ALL. …THE DEFENSE DOES NOT OPERATE TO EXCUSE A CRIMINAL ACT, NOR DOES IT NEGATE A PARTICULAR ELEMENT OF A CRIME. RATHER, BY RECOGNIZING THE USE OF FORCE TO BE PRIVILEGED UNDER CERTAIN CIRCUMSTANCES, IT RENDERS SUCH CONDUCT ENTIRELY LAWFUL.” PEOPLE V. MCMANUS, 67 N.Y. 2D 541 (1986)

Therefore, it is impossible for New York to have a place for Castle Doctrine in their self-defense laws by this alone. Only a state where deadly use of force in self defense is considered an affirmative defense has the necessary leverage for Castle Doctrine. NY does however contain elements of Castle Doctrine in its Use-of-Force Laws as found in…

NYS Penal Law, Article 35, Section 15, paragraph 2:

A person may not use deadly physical force upon another person under circumstances specified in subdivision one unless

(a) The actor reasonably believes that such other person is using or about to use deadly physical force. Even in such case, however, the actor may not use deadly physical force if he or she knows that with complete personal safety, to oneself and others he or she may avoid the necessity of so doing by retreating; except that the actor is under no duty to retreat if he or she is

(i) in his or her dwelling and not the initial aggressor;

NYS Penal Law, Article 35, Section 20, paragraph 2:

A person in possession or control of any premises, or a person licensed or privileged to be thereon or therein, …may use deadly physical force in order to prevent or terminate the commission or attempted commission of arson (as defined in Article 150), or

A person in possession or control of, or licensed or privileged to be in, a dwelling or an occupied building, who reasonably believes that another person is committing or attempting to commit a burglary of such dwelling or building, may use deadly physical force upon such other person when he or she reasonably believes such to be necessary to prevent or terminate the commission or attempted commission of such burglary (as defined in article 140).

So while there is a “no duty to retreat when in your home” and the legal protection afforded against “burglary” it is not the same as actual Castle Doctrine and the incorrect interpretation of them has contributed to the myth that New York is a Castle Doctrine state.

Is New York a Stand Your Ground State?

Much like Castle Doctrine, Stand Your Ground Laws are based on the legal treatise which generally relieves any duty or other requirement to abandon a place they have a legal right to be, or give up ground to an assailant, and can use deadly force to uphold it. The main difference between Castle Doctrine and Stand Your Ground is whether the lethal confrontation takes place in one’s home or not.

While this sounds like a “catch-all” for the legal use of a gun in self-defense, it still does not provide the legal presumption of the attacker’s intent to do serious physical injury to the “victim.” Just ask George Zimmerman. What is important to consider however is that Stand Your Ground Laws have a significant deterrence factor, but generally requires a very large amount of responsibility, patience, ability to act cool under pressure, and level-headedness on the part of the gun owner. Remember, there are three ways to deal with a potentially lethal encounter:

• AVOID
• EVADE
• COUNTER

And again, because New York State is not an Affirmative Defense State, there is no legal way to provide for Stand Your Ground Laws. In addition you are under the legal obligation to retreat when not in your own home and it’s safe to do so (for yourself and others).

So the real question is, “What do we do with this information?”

1. Get a proper appreciation for making sure you know that when it comes to justifying your use of deadly force in NYS it is putting yourself in a position where a jury would believe it was wrong if you didn’t shoot. Remember Necessity and Justifiability.
2. Necessity is based on reasonability and reasonability is based on an average person agreeing it was needed (i.e. Jury).
3. Your justification in NY State will come down to The People not being able to prove you were wrong, or disprove you were right.
4. Remember that your gun is not to be solely used to prevent break-ins, intimidation, or insubordination.
5. A criminal trial is only one of the many types of damages you will face when using a gun in self-defense, consider this along with your moral and ethical obligations.
6. With a proper understanding of NY’s Use-of-Force laws, you should feel more confident in your use of a gun, not less.

 

[Dr. Evil]

But I'm sure the guy was just about to turn his life around. One less scumbag in the world.

"Parisi said the intruder is dead, and the homeowner is okay." As it should be.

 

[Snappo]

I know a Reminton wasnt used. Since the firearm worked.

My Remington 700's are the most reliable weapons I own. And 0.25 MOA to 0.5 MOA accurate.

 

[Bananabandit]

My Remington 700's are the most reliable weapons I own. And 0.25 MOA to 0.5 MOA accurate.

I doubt he used a 700.

 

[carpediem]

I doubt he used a 700.

I would.

 

[Snappo]

I truly hope the homeowner is found to be justified in his actions. However I am afraid of how law enforcement will treat this being we are in Newyorkistan!

Excuse the typos but this is a card I have kept in my wallet since about 1980:

Self Defense Guideline Card
If you have been involved in a shooting incident, the following steps should be taken only after you are completely certain there is no longer a threat.

1- Secure the weapon the assailant used. Check yourself for injuries. Make a complete check of the crime scene however do not tamper with any evidence. If the shooter is no longer a threat try to help him. Do not talk to him. Do not touch him if he appears to be dead. Do not let anyone else tamper with the evidence.

2- Call the police as soon as possible and ask for emergency medical assistance. Tell them what has taken place and the location. Do not give too many details of the incident over the phone. Put your weapon away and keep it out of sight. Try to spot the police first and approach them in a non-threatening manner. Do as you are told. Do not question or argue with them.

3- Call your lawyer. Make no statements to the police or anyone else until your attorney is present. He should meet you at the scene if possible. Tell him what happened and let him do the talking for you. If your attorney cannot be present, explain politely but firmly that you do not want to talk until your attorney arrives.

4- When the paramedics arrive, get treatment for yourself for shock whether physically injured or not.

5- Stay away from the news media. Never talk to or make a statement to them for any reason. Let your attorney make all statements for you.

6- You are justified in using lethal force only if you "feared for your life" or that of another person. Do not apologize for defending yourself. Avoid statements like "I am sorry I had to shoot" or "I regret the incident happened". These statements can be equated with feelings of guilt. You were remorseful so your actions were inappropriate.

7- Stress. Persons involved in a shooting incident face a great amount of stress. Psychological problems may sometimes appear. Even physical ones such as sleeplessness, headaches, diarrhea, and heart problems. If you encounter any such problems seek professional help.

 

[Snappo]

I doubt he used a 700.

A 700 would be a great choice, as too would be the new Remington R25. Even an M1 Garand is a great choice. A 30 caliber round in a center-mass shot will almost immediately incapacitate the attacker at fairly close range.

 

[Bananabandit]

I personally wouldnt use a bolt action if I had other options. YMMV

 

[carpediem]

I personally wouldnt use a bolt action if I had other options. YMMV

.308 takes right care of the pesky frying pan scenario! What was the saying I saw? Oh, ".308 holes make invisible souls."

 

[Snappo]

I personally wouldnt use a bolt action if I had other options. YMMV

I concur with you on that point, and would prefer the R25 to the 700P in a home invasion scenario. Another reasonable choice (don't laugh) is an AK47, Uzi Model 45, or MAC-10.

This goes a while back, but I want to say about 20 years ago Mas Ayoob reviewed an extensive and exhausting FBI study on one-shot drops. At the time, statistically the FBI study showed that the best one-shot stopping round was the 10mm. As such, take a look at this upper:
Olympic Arms AR-15 A3 Upper Receiver Assembly 10mm Auto 16 Barrel